Sovereign Grace Ministries Polity

[Particular Baptist]

Does anyone know exactly how the SGM polity works? I've looked and I haven't been able to find one exact answer. I know that they're elder led, but how does the denomination or 'family of churches' interact with one another?

 

[SemperEruditio]

Does anyone know exactly how the SGM polity works? I've looked and I haven't been able to find one exact answer. I know that they're elder led, but how does the denomination or 'family of churches' interact with one another?

Via the phone.

 

[lynnie]

I would start here:

Polity
THE PROBLEM OF POLITY IN SOVEREIGN GRACE MINISTRIES

This is from the head ( former head maybe, not sure) of the pastor's college.

Purswell’s Polity Lecture

This is a ( negative) commentary on their view of pastors

Man Instead of God

We went to one in the mid 90s, about 93-99. I could say a lot of positives ( Dave Harvey teaching, the family life pastor, the youth pastor, a real nice small group, they pushed good books and Reformed classics). We switched to the PCA when they moved to a new building 50 minutes away on Sunday.

But even then the polity thing was glaring. People talked about CJ Mahaney like a pope, and he seemed to function like one from what we saw. Not at all like the plurality in a Presbytery. All elders were full time, no lay elders with secular jobs. No congregational vote to affirm it. No ordained deacons at all (they had "ministry team leaders"). Very top heavy authority. If your immediate authority in the pyramid was mellow it was fine, if he was young and rigid it was uncomfortable and legalistic.

Not much room for debate. One of the things I loved about my two PCA experiences was the sharpening experience of tons of theological debate, in small groups, Sunday school, with pastors. Much like this forum. When we were at SGM that just didn't happen and wasn't allowed, you toed the party line ( which could change from year to year) or were "out of control".

Members of the A team ( apostolic) are assigned to various churches. They have an annual gathering in different locations (well, did in the 90s) and occasional conferences. Far as I know most pastors went to their 9 month college, they generally won't take any from normal Reformed seminaries. Harvey did get an MDiv from WTS; it showed in the quality of his preaching. Too bad they are so isolationist in that sense.

 

[Particular Baptist]

If the polity is such an issue, why do men such as Piper, MacArthur, Dever, Duncan, Mohler, and Sproul continue to be associated with him? I'm not doubting your experience or knowledge, I'm just curious as to whether you would consider the polity to be heretical.

Also, it seems that the link you gave me talks about the polity of SGM as analagous to popery. So could it be said that SGM is closer to Episcopal govt. or Catholic govt?

 

[lynnie]

If the polity is such an issue, why do men such as Piper, MacArthur, Dever, Duncan, Mohler, and Sproul continue to be associated with him? I'm not doubting your experience or knowledge, I'm just curious as to whether you would consider the polity to be heretical.

Also, it seems that the link you gave me talks about the polity of SGM as analagous to popery. So could it be said that SGM is closer to Episcopal govt. or Catholic govt?

We were at a PCRT in Philly a few years ago at 10th Pres, and they had a Q& A time with the panel. One guy asked a question that struck us as interesting, given our experience. The question was along the lines of how could the Alliance accept SGM so freely given their non cessationist position. Ligon Duncan took the question and the answer was along the lines that when it came to essentials, the overriding importance of the great doctrines of grace was such that they could agree on that and disagree on non essentials. I don't remember the exact phrasing but I remember thinking it was sort of like we all need to hang together against Arminianism. I would assume that polity is in the same camp, ie non essential within the Alliance. They have Presbyterian and Baptist so already they have differing polities.

Heretical is a strong word, I don't think I would say that, there is no denial of any essential doctrine for salvation. Top heavy, authoritarian, and controlling, yes. Heresy, well, we don't go that far.

I sometimes look over at the SGM survivors site, and the Refuge site posted up above, curiosity mainly. A lot of people ask that- how do the big Reformed guys not see it. I have to extend grace and hope that they do see it and behind the scenes speak to it.

What is more troubling than the polity to people has been some badly bungled situations involving for example sexual abuse that was covered up and the person continued to work with kids briefly. It has sort of been dealt with but no apparent public repentance or admission of wrongdoing. A lot of changing rules and doctrines from the top without explanation about why they suddenly changed, and why suddenly this new policy is right and last week the old policy was wrong, but you have to submit cheerfully without question. That happened where we were repeatedly, and it was damaging to our kids. Lots of shifting on God's will for youth, without admission of being wrong last month. Wierd, and painful. We wanted to leave by the end, although we did and still do appreciate much that was good.

We have been gone since '99, and I am not aware of any denomination that has created two blogs with so many hurting and wrongly treated people, so I do wonder about the root of it. I mean, you read here about the problem PCA church or pastor, and we all know life is full of conflicts with sinners, but those blogs have so many ex members and leaders dumping their angst that even I wonder why the big names don't intervene. Maybe they do. Apparently many pastors get "degifted" by the Apostles and it is a big shock to their congregations.

My husband is convinced that the real problem was the substitution of "doing it right" for depending on God in prayer, and you are better off with incompetant bumbling pastors who are down on their knees realizing their inadequacy, than guys who think they are "doing it right". I heard it three times from the front and repeatedly in small group that SGM "does it right". That always leads to trouble. We need to desperately cry out to God to help us and to move by the Holy Spirit. I'm going back 10+ years, but that's how it was then.

I don't know who will read this and so I want to be careful. There were many,many blessings in our time there. But to read the blogs, well, they don't seem like bitter vindictive types, but intelligent and caring. You wonder.

 

[SemperEruditio]

My wife was attending Covenant Life's new member's class. She had many questions about the Reformed faith and at the time we believed that Calvinist and Reformed were synonymous. She attended the classes faithfully and asked many questions. Many of which could not be answered. She was told to speak to another pastor but when she did he told her that she had to wait until she finished the new comers class to come to him. She was "under care" of the new members pastor and he should be answering her questions. She returned to the new comers pastor and he said that she would have to wait until the 12 week class was over to address her questions. She had a few acquaintances at CovLife of which she never knew they were Christian. That isn't an indictment just something we both found odd especially based on our soteriology.

SGM are the reason I'm in the PCA. I was non-denominational through and through. I wanted nothing to do with denominations after leaving the RCC. So coming into the Reformation as a man undergoing ordination SGM was the logical choice...until I began to ask questions. I was told that even if my pastor wrote a letter or met with the leadership at SGM since I was not already ordained I would still have to undergo all the regular paths of membership and then eventually, if I was found to demonstrate the gifts of a pastor, I would then be considered. I asked how long that would take because I just went through all that and I was told that my pride in my past was probably a good indicator that I was not ready for pastoral ministry and I should question not only my call but those who claim I have one. Needless to say that left me more than a bit confused because mine was an honest question about the time involved since I was in seminary and looking at the chaplaincy. Providentially they do not have an endorsing body for chaplain ministry.

My wife's acquaintances called once to see how she was doing and how much longer she had in the new members class so then they could hang out. When she told them that we decided not to join CovLife and instead joined a PCA church the response was less than friendly.

I do not believe that "at the top" they see what is going on in the weeds. When I said that SGM's polity is via the phone I meant that. Everything is based on a conversation someone had with someone else about something else which leads to you not doing what you're supposed to be doing.

In the end, the lack of any real polity is what directed me back to a denomination. I realized that even if the theology is orthodox if the polity is just an arbitrary mishmash of stuff then there are bound to be some major problems brewing.

IME SGM polity is very hierarchal and very legalistic. CJ is not the pope but his word is pretty close to infallible. The bookstore I thought was great till I started looking for Horton's Amazing Grace. After looking and having the volunteer help the manager came out and said they don't carry Horton...he's not an approved author by CovLife pastors. Not a huge problem but I was warned by a young lady that reading an unapproved author is a sign of pride in me thinking I know more than the men God has appointed to lead us.... I was done and heard all I needed to hear.