So what exactly is new in the New Covenant?

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@Jeri Tanner - this discussion by Beeke and Jones might help regarding the idea of Testament in Puritan theology:

The Nature of a Covenant

Peter Bulkeley (1583–1659) begins his defense of the conditionality of the covenant of grace with a simple argument: the promises of God’s covenant do not belong to unbelieving and unrepentant sinners. Rather, those who repent, believe, and walk in obedience are heirs of the promises. Some distinction needs to be made between Christians and non-Christians, and denying conditions necessarily removes the distinction between those who believe and those who do not. Some promises exist that seem to be absolute (unconditional) and do not mention faith as a condition (e.g., Isa. 43:25; Ezek. 36:22), but their existence does not mean the promises do not require faith. God forgives based upon the merits of Christ only (Heb. 9:22), even though Christ is not always explicitly mentioned in every promise of forgiveness. Likewise, God forgives based upon faith only, even though the condition of faith is not always mentioned explicitly.7 The promises offered by God occur in the context of the covenant, and the nature of the covenant is necessarily twosided, according to Bulkeley.
A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties, requiring mutual conditions from each. A promise may be unilateral (“one-sided”), but a covenant binds parties together. Francis Roberts (1609–1675) argued that it is “absurd, and contrary to the Nature of a Covenant” to make it one-sided: “Covenants imply reciprocal obligations between Federates.”8 Bulkeley recognizes that “covenant” may be used on a special occasion to denote a promise without conditions (Gen. 9:9), but says he knows of only one such instance: the Noahic covenant. Otherwise, a covenant, by its very nature, requires “mutual stipulation or condition on both parties.… Take away the condition, you must also take away the Covenant commanded; and if there be a Covenant commanded, there must of necessity be a condition” (Josh. 7:11).9 The relationship of covenant and testament also received much attention because the new covenant described in Hebrews 7–9 is not only a covenant but also a testament. This additional concept did not exclude conditions but did establish the absolute or inviolable nature of the new covenant.
Instead of the classical Greek word suntheke (“mutual agreement”), both the Septuagint Greek version of the Old Testament and the Greek New Testament prefer to use diatheke (“arrangement” or “testament” in the sense of last will and testament, i.e., a document “arranging” the disposing of one’s estate after death) as the equivalent of the Hebrew word berith (“covenant”). Berith therefore seems to denote something more than a mere mutual agreement (suntheke). For this reason, some Reformed theologians stressed the unconditional nature of the new covenant. For example, John Owen (1616–1683) argued that berith could refer to a single promise without a condition, as in the Noahic covenant (Gen. 6:18; 9:9). According to Owen, this idea is no doubt present in the New Testament when the writer to the Hebrews calls the covenant a “testament,” and in a “testamentary dispensation there is not in the nature of it any mutual stipulation required, but only a mere single favor and grant or concession.”10 Thus, where God’s covenant is mentioned in Scripture, a uniform meaning should not be imposed upon the word. Owen adds, “And they do not but deceive themselves who, from the name of a covenant between God and man, do conclude always unto the nature and conditions of it; for the word is used in great variety, and what is intended by it must be learned from the subject matter treated of, seeing there is no precept or promise of God but may be so called.”11 Owen certainly did not deny conditions in the new covenant, but, like Bulkeley, he emphasizes its absolute nature as a testament to show its unchangeableness. Nevertheless, Bulkeley shows that the language of Hebrews 9:15 (“they which are called”) indicates that conditions are still involved:

These words … do plainly and fully imply the condition required in the Covenant of life, our calling being finished in the working of faith, which is the condition of the Covenant; no man is effectually called so as to have part in that eternal inheritance until he believe, so that the Legacies of the Testament being to those that are called, that is, to those that do believe, it is most manifest that the intent of the Apostle in calling the Covenant by name of a Testament, was not to exclude the condition, but only (as was said) to show the stability and immutability of the Covenant.12

This shows that to speak of the covenant as one-sided or two-sided, conditional or absolute, depends on the context of each covenant. The new covenant, like most covenants, is two-sided. Certainly, Richard Muller is correct to argue, “The language of monopleuron and dipleuron describes the same covenant from different points of view.”13


Beeke, J. R., & Jones, M. (2012). A Puritan Theology: Doctrine for Life (pp. 306–307). Grand Rapids, MI: Reformation Heritage Books.
 
I much appreciate Rich's talented expression, and hope you can learn as much from what he wrote (I also learning) as anything you obtain below from me.

I myself must discover the "place" certain questions or opinions/attitudes are coming from, because my background is more organic to a way of thought that others (including Rich) have been grafted into. That journey can provide a person with an angle or perspective I could never have. My own development gives me different advantages.

I had it proposed to me that things I've written here seem dispensational, which just strikes me as bizarre. In trying to figure out why such an idea would occur, Rich's reply offers me some insight. There's a way of thinking of or toward Reformed theology that is binary, either/or. It's often the reason why some who switch to a paedobaptism come to think paedocommunion is the most consistent position to adopt. Flipping the switch/script is actually not what's going on.

Rev Bruce.....

Why do you say this? "We have, today as believers, the fullness of presence of the Spirit that only the prophets, priests, and kings had until Christ. "

Is that a classical Reformed position? I mean, what about the 7,000 who did not bow the knee to Baal? Or the psalm writers who were sons of Korah? Mary, Elizabeth, Anna. Weren't there many believers in the OC who had just as much fullness of the HS as prophets, priests and kings?
Let me answer, first, with another question. What does it mean of Christ that "God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him?" The Spirit is not measured-out in any way to the Son, Jn.3:34.

We do not want to interpret this expression either 1) by claiming there's no giving for God to do, since the Son is divine already; or 2) that this is simply a reflection of his infinite divine nature capable of an infinite fullness of the Spirit. In the first, there's no comparison at all to be drawn with a measure or portion of the Spirit that another may be given. In the second, there is nothing but an absolute comparison between what Jesus is capable of, and what every other finite receiver is capable of.

But the language of measurement invites us to consider the distinction of different measures given. This sends us back to the OT, and the various manifestations of the Spirit's work in those days, and various statements made by prophets or recorded by them on the subject of the divine Spirit. It doesn't take more than a simple concordance search to find evidence of the Spirit's manifestation among men.

An early example is Bezaleel the son of Uri, Ex.31:3. Num.11:17 plainly states that Moses had the Spirit, and "I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them," who were a convention of seventy senior elders of the nation, a new high court of the people. Notice the sense of what will be distributed to them is OF the spirit that Moses has. That which has been Moses exclusive measure will provide a divided measure for seventy others. Not one of them will have the measure that Moses has, or will still have when they have received theirs.

Then later in Num.11:29, we read this, "And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" We know Moses was a prophet, the supreme prophet and old covenant mediator for the nation Israel. Manifestation of the prophetic gift was a sign of the Spirit (Neh.9:30; 1Pet.1:11). Later, it is said that Balaam (!) prophesied by the Spirit, Num.24:2. Even Saul (!) prophesied by the Spirit, 1Sam.10:6-11.

Joshua is said to have the Spirit, Num.27:18. David has the Spirit, Ps.51:11. Together with Moses and the elders and Saul, it seems clear that judges of Israel were men who, at the very least ought to, have the Spirit for the exercise of their office. We see starting with Othniel in the book of Judges 3:9-11, the next concentration of evidence that Israel's eventual monarchy should have noticeable manifestation of the Spirit.

I do not find it explicitly stated in the OT that the priests, or especially the high priest should be Spirit-endowed; however it is abundantly clear that theirs was a spiritual office, and the very nature of their holiness required some constant presence of sanctification. It could be enough to point to named priests who are identified as having the Spirit, one Zechariah in 2Chr.24:20, and Aaron (by implication) in Ps.99. True holiness is an effect of the Spirit's presence. A NT text gives perhaps the most direct evidence, 1Pet.2:5 "ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." Rom.8:9 teaches that no work is acceptable if the Spirit does not motivate it. Rom.12:1 again describes the whole life of the spiritual man as a "living sacrifice." Denying the Spirit's aid in the OT for effectual sacrifice reduces Israel's religion to the same level as idol temples.

All this points toward the three key OT typological mediatorial offices as points of concentration for the Spirit's ministry in the old covenant era. And yet none of this admission would imply that the Spirit was 1) not present in anyone else' life among the saints of old, like the 7000, 1Ki.19:18; or that 2) perhaps he was always necessary for regeneration, but then left the work of sanctification to the individual and the (external) law.

What we should take from this OT survey is that the Spirit was present and active in Israel of old, and yet that there was a great diversity of both the benefit and endowments of the Spirit. We should ask, "WHY would the concentration of the Spirit's presence be a special gift of the prophets, priests, and kings? Why would they have a greater measure of the Spirit than ordinary believing Israelites?"

The reason is because by their increased measure, they pointed to Someone coming who would not only take up all three offices of Mediator; he would have the Spirit without any measure. Compared to everyone else in all time, Jesus' possession of the Spirit is incomparable. He and the Spirit are One, just as he and the Father are One. He had an historic bodily endowment of the Spirit at his baptism for his ministry. But we should not imagine that Jesus, the man, did not already possess the benefit of the Spirit's work with him (though not, of course, for his regeneration since he needed none such). He had that gift from the time the Spirit overshadowed Mary with his conception.

He shared a measure of his Spirit with his disciples, after the example of Moses. And then, at his ascension he poured out his Spirit on his whole church--a massive endowment unlike anything previously known in Israel. Your males your females, your old, your youth, even "upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit." In this manner, all God's people now have a better measure than the average OT saint claimed.

The old covenant believer had to content himself with admiring the special figures in his society who represented to him the Coming One and had a better measure than his. He had a measure, of that we can be sure, because he was a child of God. But it was a limited measure, paltry compared to the mediatorial types endowed for their service. It was a measure suited for the time "under age," the age of the church's childhood.

Since this is already a long post, I will end it here. I welcome further questions.
 
That was excellent, Bruce. It was a detailed Biblical theology where mine was more of a summary of an idea. I love how you tied up the point that Christ fulfills all three offices in His Mediatorial work for us - and without measure!

You see, even if OT saints had the spirit's operation so that they could believe - even if they had mediatorial types in their prophets, priests, and kings - they were not united by faith to any of these types. They were not united to Christ Who reigns on high and has the Spirit without measure and gives freely to His Bride.

If one reads Hebrews then notice the structure of the text. It doesn't jump into Hebrews 8-10 in the abstract and talk about how much better the NC is for the elect. It builds a case about Christ throughout. He is God. He is the fullness of Revelation. He's greater than Moses, greater than Abraham, greater than Levi, prophesied by David. There's nobody like Him. There's no person who even comes close to comparing to him. *This* is what Hebrews is teaching us. How can we neglect such a great salvation in Christ? It's not an abstract theological discussion about election and the NC and trying to compare OT Saints to NT Saints without taking Christ into consideration. It's impossible to make the comparison if you leave Him out of the discussion. I think that's often where a theology of election or the Covenant falls down in that it fails to place Christ at the center of contemplation.
 
Can you explain this further or was the "not" a typo?
In an historic sense, they had a mediated union, not a direct communion of union with the Coming One. It was one distinct advantage of the mediatorial types (the believing ones) that they had some higher concept of spiritual union and communion with God. But their ability to appreciate it and make use of it in history was, even for those with the better Spirit endowment, not convenient, not like we (NT) have it.

How could they know what this Person was truly going to be like, until he came? How could they comprehend his pre-existence? The prophets even searched the Scriptures (their own productions!) for deeper knowledge, 1Pet.1:11. How could they wrap their heads around a forever Prophet, Priest, and King; whose life would be both poured out for them, and cause them to live forever with him by virtue of his life in resurrection power?

These are ideas that we, living as we do in the light of the NT, take as too commonplace notions. They struggled for more understanding and clarity as they waited. They would have that perfectly when they died and entered eternity, but not before.
 
In an historic sense, they had a mediated union, not a direct communion of union with the Coming One. It was one distinct advantage of the mediatorial types (the believing ones) that they had some higher concept of spiritual union and communion with God. But their ability to appreciate it and make use of it in history was, even for those with the better Spirit endowment, not convenient, not like we (NT) have it.

How could they know what this Person was truly going to be like, until he came? How could they comprehend his pre-existence? The prophets even searched the Scriptures (their own productions!) for deeper knowledge, 1Pet.1:11. How could they wrap their heads around a forever Prophet, Priest, and King; whose life would be both poured out for them, and cause them to live forever with him by virtue of his life in resurrection power?

These are ideas that we, living as we do in the light of the NT, take as too commonplace notions. They struggled for more understanding and clarity as they waited. They would have that perfectly when they died and entered eternity, but not before.
Could the Spirit even do same as He does today in the NC, since the Messiah had not yet come, so He was still limited to how He operated during that time?
 
Could the Spirit even do same as He does today in the NC, since the Messiah had not yet come, so He was still limited to how He operated during that time?
Brother,
God can do what he wants, when he wants. His people always operate at the level of what he's revealed, and what he's promised.
 
Brother,
God can do what he wants, when he wants. His people always operate at the level of what he's revealed, and what he's promised.
The Lord Jesus had to die in order to have saved granted direct access to God now and after life, and had to ascend back in order to have the Spirit return to dwell with us, and not just on us.
 
The Lord Jesus had to die in order to have saved granted direct access to God now and after life, and had to ascend back in order to have the Spirit return to dwell with us, and not just on us
David, what you keep saying is completely dispensational and not Reformed. You should probably take a step back and read the nuances that Rich and Bruce have put forth before you try and teach.
 
The Lord Jesus had to die in order to have saved granted direct access to God now and after life, and had to ascend back in order to have the Spirit return to dwell with us, and not just on us.
Seems like you are obliging God in heaven and those with him to operate within the confines of temporal succession--i.e. history.

Is Jesus "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8)? If so, then in heaven's eternal reckoning God can receive Noah, David, Deborah, Isaiah, and any other OT believer on that basis as soon as they die. It doesn't mean that while they were alive--in history--they could fully appreciate what the afterlife had in store for them, Is.64:4. We don't even have a full appreciation of what the afterlife has in store for us, 1Cor.2:9.

As for that "in-vs.-on" distinction you seem to be resting your last comment upon, I don't see a Heb. preposition as a strong doctrinal foundation. Upon examination, it appears to me as a distinction without much difference. I don't think it aids an understanding of OT/NT soteriology, pneumatology, or anything. It's inadequate exegesis.
 
I deeply appreciate all the responses and linked quotes. Too bad we can only click "like" or "edifying" or "informative"
when sometimes all three could be clicked.

I found Grant's comments about Adam intriguing: "We now just have the Law that was written on Adam's heart in a state of innocence."

It makes sense that when Jeremiah prophesied and Hebrews refers to this, it is about Adam and the second Adam. In regeneration we are restored to Adam, not the first Adam who was able to sin, but the second Adam who resisted all sin and because of whom we can now eat from the tree of life. To have God's law written on our hearts being a reference to Adam seems to me to so far be the best way to interpret this subject of the law written on our minds.

There are a few things here that don't sound like what I had thought was the classical Reformed position. It might be semantics. I understand various measures and depths of experiencing the HS in the New Testament age, so certainly old too, but in terms of the actual regeneration or salvation, the Reformed position ( I thought) is that what they had is what we have. There is only one state of being born again. One salvation. Maybe trying to understand it mentally and in experience is just hard to define, but for example I don't know that any of them had less communion with God than we do. I know hub's WTS prof said OT salvation and NT salvation had no difference experientially. Maybe the Reformed don't see eye to eye exactly.

Been out all day and have to go, but again, this whole discussion has gotten me thinking intensely about the Lord and what it is to be saved, and I am very grateful for all the many things posted. My husband and I have talked of nothing else theological since it started LOL, trying to hammer out the finer points of Hebrews.
 
in terms of the actual regeneration or salvation, the Reformed position ( I thought) is that what they had is what we have.
This is most certainly true. Ergo, the NT-conditioned indwelling of the Spirit has to be something distinct from regeneration, and from that very modest (on average) persistent Spirit presence and power affecting the believer under OT conditions.
 
David, what you keep saying is completely dispensational and not Reformed. You should probably take a step back and read the nuances that Rich and Bruce have put forth before you try and teach.
I have been continuing to read more materials, and still seems to ne that there are indeed differing ways to view this interesting discussion, as not all Reformed hold to exact same understanding of just how the Spirit functioned in the OT times, and how much of a difference, if any, there was between the 2 Covenants.
 
Seems like you are obliging God in heaven and those with him to operate within the confines of temporal succession--i.e. history.

Is Jesus "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8)? If so, then in heaven's eternal reckoning God can receive Noah, David, Deborah, Isaiah, and any other OT believer on that basis as soon as they die. It doesn't mean that while they were alive--in history--they could fully appreciate what the afterlife had in store for them, Is.64:4. We don't even have a full appreciation of what the afterlife has in store for us, 1Cor.2:9.

As for that "in-vs.-on" distinction you seem to be resting your last comment upon, I don't see a Heb. preposition as a strong doctrinal foundation. Upon examination, it appears to me as a distinction without much difference. I don't think it aids an understanding of OT/NT soteriology, pneumatology, or anything. It's inadequate exegesis.
I was just trying to understanding what the temple curtain tearing meant for us now, as before Jesus died, wasn't direct access to God shut up from even his saints?
 
I was just trying to understanding what the temple curtain tearing meant for us now, as before Jesus died, wasn't direct access to God shut up from even his saints?
Moses and David both communed with God.

They did in through the Mediator.
 
Jesus was not functioning though as their High Priest before the NC, was He?

How did they, as sinners, commune with God without a mediator?

The Lord spoke to Moses as he did to a friend. Was this due to Moses' righteouseness? On what possible basis could that occur, other than through the Mediation of Christ, who was yet to come?

I think we need to heed brother Bruce's words here. God is simply not constrained by time like we are. What does it mean that Jesus is "the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world?" What does it mean that to the Lord a day is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years like a day? God is simply not time-bound like we are.

To understand this, consider a train. There is a train engine, and united to that train engine are 100 cars in front and 100 cars behind. You are standing at one point on the tracks. The train approaches, and you see the 100 front cars, but you don't see the engine. As far as you are concerned, the engine has not yet come...yet the cars are moving because they are connected to the engine. Then eventually, you see the engine, and you begin to see all 100 cars being dragged behind the engine. All the cars get to the destination because they are united to the engine. Some arrive before the engine is revealed, some do after.

And that is my feeble attempt to explain the matter.
 
I was just trying to understanding what the temple curtain tearing meant for us now, as before Jesus died, wasn't direct access to God shut up from even his saints?
Moses and David both communed with God.
They did in through the Mediator.
Jesus was not functioning though as their High Priest before the NC, was He?
How did they, as sinners, commune with God without a mediator?

The Lord spoke to Moses as he did to a friend. Was this due to Moses' righteouseness? On what possible basis could that occur, other than through the Mediation of Christ, who was yet to come?

I think we need to heed brother Bruce's words here. God is simply not constrained by time like we are. What does it mean that Jesus is "the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world?" What does it mean that to the Lord a day is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years like a day? God is simply not time-bound like we are.

To understand this, consider a train. There is a train engine, and united to that train engine are 100 cars in front and 100 cars behind. You are standing at one point on the tracks. The train approaches, and you see the 100 front cars, but you don't see the engine. As far as you are concerned, the engine has not yet come...yet the cars are moving because they are connected to the engine. Then eventually, you see the engine, and you begin to see all 100 cars being dragged behind the engine. All the cars get to the destination because they are united to the engine. Some arrive before the engine is revealed, some do after.

And that is my feeble attempt to explain the matter.

I appreciate Izaak's effort; let me try to add to it. First, a text and exposition:

Ex.6:3 "and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."​

Taken at face value, this declaration makes little sense. We know from the record in Genesis that the patriarchs had possession of the divine name. But something was about to happen in the life of the Israelites that was going to reveal their God to them by name, his covenant-name, that no previous experience had. A new union with their God was on the horizon by means of this name and his covenant, brought about by an imminent salvation soon to be revealed.

We have to be precise, and clear in the specifics of what we claim. We need categories that fit certain situations and realities, about which statements may vary. To address concepts that divide everything up (like dispensationalism for example) the answer is not to assert perfect unity everywhere. When we do such, we lose the ability to respond to those who actually do tend toward varieties of Christian monism.

When we talk about the communion OT saints like Moses and David had with God, we have to distinguish between what they could know and experience as historic persons, and what they benefited from as eternal verity. In historic terms, there was no such person as the God-man, Christ Jesus, when in time they lived. Therefore, speaking historically about what was possible for them to experience in this life, they could not have union-with-Christ because they were waiting for him so they could have union with him.

Were they saved by virtue of union with the one and only Mediator? Yes, because everyone is justified by faith, and that faith unites them to the Mediator as they believe what God would do or has (now) done to save them. But an OT saint's existential union with Christ had a historic constraint--in history the Christ was not yet. They had faith in a God--and thereby in his Mediator--which is beyond history.

The OT saint could not experience his saving union in history, but would experience that union through death of the body, his soul still seeking and immediately finding the God he sought in life, the God who first sought him in election and made it possible for that saint to commune with him in history. How? By types and shadows that mediated to him a faint but true communion with God, representing to him the future-historic work of the Mediator. Ours is a faith that transcends time.

There was no way for the believer prior to the Incarnation to historically enter into union with a God-man who had not as yet an historic presence. To affirm this does not prevent also affirming that there was real and abiding and spiritually beneficial communion with God; or that the pre-incarnate Son was the eternal source and agent for it. Israel in Egypt could not know the God they knew in the particular saving way they would know him, until he saved them.

In the proper sense, we grant that the OT saint communed with God via the Reality/Antitype behind and signified by the types. We grant it, provided it be acknowledged: the distinction between history and eternity. When Jesus arrives and does his saving work, it is "a new and living way," Heb.10:20.
 
Rev BB, I am no expert or trying to disagree with you, but the WTS position and some Reformed commentaries is that the OT believers had exactly what we have in experience. We commune with the second person of the trinity by way of the Holy Spirit and they also communed with the eternal word, second person, by way of the Holy Spirit. They did have union with Him, fully.

I think some of them would say you sound Dispensational. I am not saying you are because I just don't know and am in the process of thinking about all this, and in your favor is that you ascribe something to the NT era that is so much greater than the OT and would seem to fit with Hebrews. But in experience, in what happens inside us including full communion with God, there are many who would not agree with you and would say OT saints had full saving union...in many cases experientially perhaps far deeper and more glorious than us (I am thinking of those who wrote scripture). The second person of the trinity was always there even if He hadn't incarnated yet.

Maybe this is one of these subjects like polity or eschatology where the Reformed have different opinions and are not as unified in their view of OT salvation as I originally thought?
 
Lynnie,
What is meant by "in experience?" I know what it cannot mean: that the OT believer had unmediated connection with the Mediator. You and I have that, because we live in the moment of salvation actually done historically in Christ. The types and shadows standing between Him and us are gone. But at one time, in history, they weren't; and believers had to negotiate them in this life.

The experience of Israelites in Egypt who lived and died before the Exodus and Sinai covenant was different in measurable ways from the experience of the Exodus generation, and all the others after it. Yet, the earlier believers were still living by faith, and were even saved we may say out of Egypt by the one event that had not happened yet in their lifetimes.

Now, if you said to me: "Hold it, pastor, how can you say that Israelite men and women crushed to an early grave by Egyptian cruelty, and baby boys thrown in the river to drown--they were saved out of Egypt in the Exodus? That's nuts!" Well, I actually want to draw an experiential distinction between the earlier and later generations of Israelites.

I want that, AND I want to affirm that by a covenantal solidarity those who suffered and died waiting were yet released from Egypt by the power of God in the one and only Exodus. A man who died in faith was at the instant of death experientially realizing God had kept his promise to him and the whole people. While he lived, he both groaned and triumphed (already) through faith.
 
But in experience, in what happens inside us including full communion with God, there are many who would not agree with you and would say OT saints had full saving union...in many cases experientially perhaps far deeper and more glorious than us (I am thinking of those who wrote scripture). The second person of the trinity was always there even if He hadn't incarnated yet.
Address this separate. I don't think you've read what I've written closely enough. You are combining ideas that I have separated and distinguished. For example, I affirm that the Son/2nd Person is God in the OT too, not just the NT. I affirm a thoroughgoing and orthodox whole-Bible Trinitarianism. I wrote above that the Son is the true eternal source and agent of OT saints' communion with God.

It's one thing that a fact is, another to have what might be accurately described as experience of the fact. There are I know not how many hugely meaningful facts that are physically affecting my present existence and conditions--like the sun's gravity. But there are intermediate facts so much closer to me, proximate causes affecting me, that its hard to justify calling my relationship to the distant-but-most-meaningful fact out there "union." I'm not experiencing it appreciably.

If in a moment, it is suddenly made wonderfully clear and necessary to my happiness: my dependence on the sun's gravity--until now, the largest fact in my experience was the earth; the sun being a small ball of light and heat that disappeared half the time, swallowed up in the immensity of the earth--NOW the mediation of the earth is removed, and I conceive the solar system in a radically different way, in an unmediated way.

Geocentricity has given way to heliocentricity. Has my relationship to the sun changed at all, from a factual standpoint? No, but I have a far more intimate relation for understanding my life in dependency on it.

You seem to read what I've said, put it through some of your own filters, and translated it into me saying the OT saints lacked communion with God, or lacked "full" communion--perhaps, as if they had only a partial salvation. I've only said that they lacked (in fact, they couldn't have in both a historical sense and an unveiled manner) full appreciation and engagement with an historic fact that hadn't happened yet. And, consequently their experience of what IS theirs through the Covenant of Redemption is experientially muted during their sojourn in history.

Let me say it again: There cannot be the God-man, Christ Jesus, in history prior to @ B.C.<>A.D. The "Coming One" came. And he had to come, and take on flesh, in order to be sacrificed--the event--and die, and rise, and everything else associated with his identity as our Savior. In eternity, he's the Lamb forever, which is why OT saints dying entered glory and beheld their Hope.

But it you think this: some OT saints had experience of union "far deeper and more glorious than us," I wonder what you make of texts like Lk.7:28,
" For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."​
Or Rom.16:25-26
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.​

I don't think that John the Baptist is taking a lower place in glory than any who will stand in the first rank of saints in the light, going back to Abel. Jesus is nevertheless bold to declare how, in terms of history and manifestation, the children of his Kingdom and its humblest dweller, living in its fullness, are possessed of an almost inconceivably excellent situation even compared to John the Baptist who was so near in time to the unveiling of it. He was the last OT prophet.

Would you trade your present estate, if you could go back in time and be queen of the Britons (instead of Boudica)? No painless dentistry, no freeways, no internet--but... you would be queen. I think lots of people would say upon consideration, "No thanks;" and most of those who think they'd say "Yes," would actually want out after a very short time.

The reason can be summed up less by the word "comfort," as much as by the word "progress." Comfort is what you're used to, or what you can imagine you could get used to. A man can be comfortable sitting on a log, but if he loves his easy-chair... he'll get up from the log, go inside his air-conditioned house, and fall asleep in his lounger. He'll pop a couple aspirin, and his headache will be gone and forgotten. A ten-mile trip will take him 15min, not three steady hours of walking. People of very modest means can do all this thanks to modern society.

As an adult, I laugh and cry over many things; which were also my expressions as a baby. Is it possible there were moments of euphoria as a child that rival and surpass my present enjoyments? I probably thrilled to see my mother's face. I still delight to see her face, though probably with more complacency. It's the same face, the same person. I, however, am no longer a child. My appreciation of her, though expressed in different ways--certainly with less swooning--is richer and more devoted, more glorious overall, than when I was so much younger.

The church in the OT was childlike (Gal.4:1-3; 3:25; Eph.4:14; cf. Gal.5:1). Not that men were less mature than men today. Men of immense spiritual talent were (in a manner of speaking) struggling to master grammar (invent it, really) as they were taught by God in the elementary school of Christ. These men were appointed the tutors of Israel, the child at his homework.

I remember the day I suddenly understood fractions. It's been decades; I still remember the feeling like my mind had opened up, after being jammed shut. Talk about euphoria, glory. Fractions. I took math courses up through college level calculus, and enjoyed most of it. That's quite an advance on fractions. I think derivatives and integrals are glorious things of beauty. But there was a time in human history when someone first figured out the glory of fractions, and Newton and Leibniz were afar off. Now, we hope our first grader will master fractions.
 
Well now, I am geocentrist, and that never gave way to heliocentricity : )

But I digress. I don't think I misunderstand you, its just that some people think the OT union was indeed a true union and communion like ours, other than that obviously the mental grasp of the incarnation and work of redemption we have was absent.

To be saved is to have union with Christ, BC and AD.
Some people would disagree with this: "What is meant by "in experience?" I know what it cannot mean: that the OT believer had unmediated connection with the Mediator."

David speaks of the Lord before him, at his right hand, filling him with fullness of joy. Job knew his redeemer lived and would stand upon the earth. Daniel saw in a vision one like the son of man together with the Ancient of days. He must have known it was the same person who came into the blazing furnace with his three friends. Enoch walked with God and was taken up without dying, and Elijah....I can't believe they didn't have some sense of the second person of the trinity. Other Reformed people would say that indeed they had full union with Christ and communion with Him, even if they didn't understand it and were mentally not where NT believers are.

Re John.....here is a quote from Calvin via Matthew Poole:

"Notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Mr. Calvin and many others think that by this phrase is to be understood, the least of those who shall preach the gospel after my resurrection will be greater than he, that is, as to their doctrine. John could only declare me to be come. They shall preach me, as having died for my people’s sins, and risen again for their justification, Romans 4:25. The death and the resurrection of Christ were indeed great points of the gospel, which John could only prophesy of, not preach of, and declare us things in his time accomplished."

Other commentaries refer to the "greater" being our mental understanding ( I was looking at bible hub). Of course we have a true and clear and greater understanding of the Lord now. Of course regarding the mind and doctrine the NT is superior.

But does that mean a lesser sort of union and communion BC vs AD? I don't know for sure, but I am just trying to point out that other Reformed scholars would say their experience and communion was no different than ours, at least for some of them. In AD the outpouring and sheer number of elect is broadened globally, and we understand Jesus Christ now in a way they didn't.....but their regeneration still was union with Christ and communion with Christ. To be born again is to be in Christ.....even if your mental grasp is veiled.

I don't feel entirely comfortable arguing with a moderator and don't want an infraction, so I think I'll drop out here. Again, I deeply appreciate all the dialogue, and I've come to see that there is not one unified Reformed position on salvation in the OT and NT. Since it isn't a salvation or Reformed essential to know what Isaiah was experiencing, I'll drop it. Thanks again for all the replies.
 
Well, I wish you had not dropped out on account of a perceived "power-disparity" between us. But I also understand how tiring long exchanges can be.

As for "arguing with a mod," dissent and debate isn't challenging authority around here. Copping an attitude after being asked to tone down rhetoric, or refusing to respect the enforced limits of acceptable discourse--that's argumentative grounds for infractions.
To be saved is to have union with Christ, BC and AD.
There are some points in the response that should get more ink than I can spare. We should be talking about union with God, the LORD, etc., with respect to the OT saints. They did not have NT clarity or vocabulary; even as we vigorously affirm that in fact it was by the Son/2P (in NT terms). Some respect should be had for Christ as an historical designation, even if in historically expectant settings. And there is not enough attention or care to the temporal/eternal divide. It matters. Finally, the tendency is still there to put everything in Dispensational-vs-covenant binary terms. As if one view was a perfect inversion of the other, a reverse mirror image.

When I read the quote comment, and see the support, my immediate thought is "Where in this equation are the BC mediators?" In other words, what account is there of them? I can affirm that statement with regard to the OT, with an explanation of the person of the Levitical priest, Davidic king, and Mosaic prophet integral to it.

If your understanding is that the OC mediators are basically doing a pantomime; rather than actually performing a typological, mediatorial function, working as an intermediary between the people and God, even between a man and the Second Person of the Godhead--then we do mean different things by the statement.

My impression is that your claim is that the OT believer's union is as direct and immediate as the NT believer's. To my mind, that view cannot take into account that key thing that was among my original responses in this thread: that in Christ, the former mediator-types are taken out of the way. Only then is direct, unimpeded union possible.

Those OT saints--they needed so greatly those typological mediators! Without them, no union with the Mediator was allowed. There was no bypassing them. They exercised a sacerdotal function; one of Rome's stupendous errors is that they return the church under a sacerdotal priesthood. OT Israel had that, they had a legitimate one, the only legitimate one in history. And now, we have one High Priest, with no priestly aides, who abides forever under the offering of one final sacrifice.

When you place me at odds, in some fashion, with your learned and respected WTS theologians--which I assume are mostly Presbyterian and covenantal--my initial thought is that the issue is linguistic. You are used to conversation at close personal distance, and I'm just an internet guy. I find it hard to imagine I am that distinct a voice among your teachers.

I also remember that you are Baptist in your orientation. If so, and you are more covenantal (though a Baptist), then you occupy some middle ground between the Reformed and the Baptist territory. So, when you insist that you are really getting my drift, and seeing contradictions where I am surprised you locate them, I still think we aren't quite on the same wavelength.

**********************
Calvin is much closer to my exposition than the truncated, 2nd-hand ref. from Poole would indicate:
The Greek word mikroteros, which I have rendered least, is in the comparative degree, and signifies less; but the meaning is more clearly brought out, that all the ministers of the Gospel are included. Many of them undoubtedly have received a small portion of faith, and are therefore greatly inferior to John; but this does not prevent their preaching from being superior to his, because it holds out Christ as having rendered complete and eternal satisfaction by his one sacrifice, as the conqueror of death and the Lord of life, and because it withdraws the veil, and elevates believers to the heavenly sanctuary.​
Even if one reduces "least" to new covenant ministers alone (and does not see reference the members) Calvin advances them ahead of John for superiority in preaching. And note the reference to Christ's finished, priestly work. And the last expression, this new covenant preaching "elevates believers to the heavenly sanctuary." That's a direct move to heaven, unlike in Israel where the physical Sanctuary was the requisite stairstep to heaven.
 
Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Before I get to the main point, I respect people here as I do other people I've known and many authors mostly in heaven now. It isn't necessarily a factor in my thinking if I read it in a book or here or heard it from somebody. And I didn't go to WTS, hub did, it was his prof I referred to.

So anyway, I do feel like I need to read more and I'm loathe to bat this around with you until I do. Having said that......

I think the way you write sounds like Federal Vision or Dispensational. You make it sound like the ground of salvation and union with Christ was something they did, ie, the OT law. "Heb 10:4 - It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins." You say they needed them. Yes, as types to point to Christ, but not as the basis for union with Christ. They could not take away sin.

You say: "Those OT saints--they needed so greatly those typological mediators! Without them, no union with the Mediator was allowed. There was no bypassing them."

I don't agree. We do need everything God ordains for us and in the NT we have baptism and communion and all sorts of commands to obey. But the grounds of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. There is no other ground of salvation or merit before God. Salvation is and was union with Christ, to be IN Christ, BC and AD. There is no other salvation but by grace through faith. Abel and Enoch and Noah did not have those mediators, but are listed as heroes of the faith. You make it sound like salvation was depending on the ceremonial law. That never saved them, it couldn't.

No works of obedience and no infused righteousness from the gift of a new heart is any grounds of salvation. All the merit was in Christ. This is why Norman Shepherd eventually got kicked out of WTS. We have to obey, we are commanded to obey, yet the only ground of salvation is Jesus and not what we do.

I know you'll say you think they were regenerated but without the union. All I can say is that when I read Psalms I know they had what I have. Other OT places too.

I have to go but I really need to read more on this anyway. Good night.
 
It means Christ is His equal. He is God in the Flesh.
I explained in the next paragraph why that reading doesn't do justice to the expression. If it's nothing but an absolute comparison, Jesus vs. anyone else or everyone else altogether, the sentence is rhetorically lively, but the meaning flat. The term "measure" is reduced to a synonym for "limit." The next few paragraphs are a study on measure of the Holy Spirit in OT background for John's use. I'm glad someone found it useful.
 
God did something a long time ago I have to rely upon. It comes from Job.

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Job 19:28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
Job 19:29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.


Seems this guy knew his destiny.
 
Lynnie,
I just deny that anything I've written has a whiff of dispensationalism, or worse. It's a bitter pill to have my words labeled with those associations. I'll just take it, and figure that you're left in a quandary trying to fit this stuff in your taxonomy.

I would like you, if possible, to identify any words in particular that sound to you like I'm grounding salvation and union with Christ in human activity. I am convinced you are reading into something I wrote, and not reading from the words.

I say the saints needed the sanctuary and its rites, indeed. And, I can affirm Heb.10:4 and every ounce of its declaration of the ultimate failure to take away sins. It says 9X in the text of Lev.4-6 in chs. dealing with the essential sacrifices of the altar, "it shall be forgiven them/him." So, now we have multiple texts, and two (on their face) directly contradictory expressions. We can't just say that Heb.10:4 just trumps the others, that it invalidates the earlier language. What does it mean over and over again, "it shall be forgiven him" in the context of the sacrifices, which Heb.10:4 says can't take sins away?

Some folks answer this way: the sacrifices were just pantomime, kabuki theater, a bare sign. The priests did their thing because Israel needed a big show, a ritual act that brought no spiritual effect, but was a big expensive message board to the nation: Sin Is a Big Deal! that flashed in pre-neon days for a thousand years; then after a short break for about 500yrs more.

The occasional argument goes: the sacrifices were still meaningless rituals; but God posited that he would grant pardons in timely conjunction with the ritualistic patterns of the priests. In this view, the sacrifices actually functioned as a form of distraction or misdirection. They had no actual connection to the pardon, and the induced belief that they did created a false belief, mainly for the reprobates.

Another wrong answer would be that for a time--perhaps no longer than the first abortive attempt to enter the Promised Land, or maybe when the people went into exile--the sacrifices did take sin away, but then (by the time the NT is written) they don't anymore. This is a confused and ad hoc response to the apparent OT/NT contradiction. The choice of moment to end sacrificial efficacy is simply arbitrary.

It is just as wrong to make the sacrifices intrinsically pardoning at all, at any point, when Heb.10:4 (appealing to the nature of the things) says that they cannot, and could never have done the lifting, if the weight was left to them. And it isn't just Israel's problem, but the patriarchs' as well, and then the rest of humanity going back to the earliest sacrifices east of Eden.

So what, does this leave us with a contradiction? God gave Israel detailed instructions and promised to pardon sins in accord with the sacrifices. Going back to the beginning, it was substitution made in animal blood; only idolaters sought equivalence by human sacrifices. What was God doing? He was tying his promised performance of a supreme sacrifice to the typological sacrifices. He bid his covenanted people put their trust in the substitutionary sacrifices he provided, which he would regard for the sake of the Sacrifice that was united to them.

In this way, you have both a true and unfeigned promise of God to forgive on account of the animal sacrifice brought, Lev.4:20 etc.; and at the same time the certainty that these things, if left to themselves, do nothing, can not possibly be efficacious on account of their humble nature. But because these sacraments are united to the heavenly reality by divine promise, and because God has prepared a human body of super-equivalence, Heb.10:5, Ps.40:6, being united to the divine nature of the Second Person, those offerings accomplished things that by nature they would not be able to.

Apart from the supreme Sacrifice, they were worthless. This is why Hebrews recipients are being so strongly urged not to go back again to the altar in the Temple. There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins there, Heb.10:26. This is another text that read on its face tells us that once upon a time there did remain a sacrifice for sin on Israel's altar; but v18: "Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin."

This is not dispensationalist thinking, not classic dispensationalism with its once upon a time efficacious (on their own) sacrifices. Dispensationalism has no sacramental altar.

Furthermore, you admit we need what God says we need. Then you read into what I said about need (yes strongly, intentionally I said it) that the need equates to a grounding, as if somehow replacing Christ. But this is false. You have determined in advance that every believer in either OT or NT age possessed historical/temporal union with the Mediator in exactly the same way. You have functionally eliminated the purpose of the Aaronic priesthood in history, bypassing them as real if typological mediators.

It took union with Christ to redeem an OT saint. But before the Coming One came, that union required union with additional intermediaries for the historical duration of a saint's life. Die, and he enters eternity and no longer makes any use of such temporal delays.

You raise the matter of the patriarchs (by implication), and names of saints from even earlier: Abel, Enoch, Noah. Correct, these all lived before the Mosaic covenant and that era, and did not possess Israel's altar. That does not mean that there was no priest of family, city, or realm. In God's economy, "no man takes this honor unto himself but he that is called of God, as was Aaron," Heb.5:4

A legitimate priest was in an office God instituted for men after the fall. Were there legitimate priests before Aaron? Gen.14, Melchizedek, is the locus classicus, priest of the city of Salem. Moses marries the daughter of the priest of Midian, Ex.3:1. Job (seems to be a patriarchal figure) performs the task of priest for his family. Priests were mediators, and if they did what God willed for them, in the days before he confined his knowledge to one nation under heaven, then their mediation and altar must also have been united to the Ultimate Sacrifice and the Cross-shaped Altar of Calvary. That is the only way sacrifice would work.

Saving faith must come before every ritual. Ritual is empty without it. Man is justified by faith alone. Believers are united to Christ in their efffectual calling. We in the NT know so much about Christ, and more than anything we know he died on the cross for the sins of the world. It is faith in Him, in the Sacrifice, that saves. But there was a long age, ages, in time when that Sacrifice waited.

The way to union with God and his promised Redeemer (how is he going to save us?) passed through the institution of sacrifice, eventually elaborately and finely decorated and ritualized in Israel's Sanctuary. No more local priests, no more local altars. One altar for the whole people. One priest to replace the priest of the home, or the city, or of any other realm.

There is no way in OT terms to bypass this altar, and come to God on your own recognizance. This altar is not just a symbol of a God who seems strict but actually is approachable on much looser, freer terms. It was THE WAY to have peace with God. Until Jesus said, "I AM THE WAY," and took the altar into himself.

This is not Shepherdism. You cannot put any of this together with his assertions, or the FV, or any group that ties works and justification. I wish you would read some classic works on Covenant Theology. Read John Owen on Hebrews, all seven volumes.

Lynnie,
I said I would not object to your engagement, when you worried you had or would say something against board policy. All I'm doing here is asking you to check the associations you have leveled at me. I do not endorse those ideas; they are not tied to my treatment of cov. theology or Israel's theocracy. You are making hasty connections disconnected from fact.
 
Hi again, and thank you for the long reply. I am pressed for time and have to go out so I can not interact with any depth now. But I should say I never thought you ARE Dispensational or FV, I thought your wording was bad.

"You have determined in advance that every believer in either OT or NT age possessed historical/temporal union with the Mediator in exactly the same way."

Well yes, I essentially do and that is why I said everybody is saved the same way. By grace through faith only on the grounds of Jesus Christ. AD, BC. Obviously we know things they didn't know before the incarnation, but salvation ( which I am pretty much using synonymously as "union with Christ") has always been the same. So you do understand me. Up until recently I thought this was pretty much the Reformed understanding.

I will refer to one book I thought of today that had an impact in my past- Jesus on Every Page by David Murray. The mediatorial work of Jesus did not start with the incarnation. He was present all over in the OT as the angel of the Lord. He talked to Adam in the Garden. I don't have time to squash an entire book into a paragraph, but I do believe the second person/eternal word was very much present in the OT. And those men communed with him. Murray likens it as an eyedropper BC, and like a power hose after Pentecost , but it is always still water for those given to experience it.


Lastly, re interpretation, you say "So, now we have multiple texts, and two (on their face) directly contradictory expressions. We can't just say that Heb.10:4 just trumps the others, that it invalidates the earlier language. "

I say the NT always interprets the old, and where the NT defines or explains the old it always trumps it. Not to invalidate but to clarify what was meant. And yes God gave them the ceremonial system and they needed to obey it, and God saw the blood and forgave sin, but, their union and communion was more than that...it was by faith in the Holy Spirit. But maybe we are beating a dead horse by now on this.

Anyway, I have to go, no time to write more and I haven't had time to even read anything else, so maybe I best drop the subject for now. I can only tell you again that at least one WTS prof said that whatever is new in the new Cov about salvation, it wasn't their experience.
 
Hi again, and thank you for the long reply. I am pressed for time and have to go out so I can not interact with any depth now. But I should say I never thought you ARE Dispensational or FV, I thought your wording was bad.

"You have determined in advance that every believer in either OT or NT age possessed historical/temporal union with the Mediator in exactly the same way."

Well yes, I essentially do and that is why I said everybody is saved the same way. By grace through faith only on the grounds of Jesus Christ. AD, BC. Obviously we know things they didn't know before the incarnation, but salvation ( which I am pretty much using synonymously as "union with Christ") has always been the same. So you do understand me. Up until recently I thought this was pretty much the Reformed understanding.

I will refer to one book I thought of today that had an impact in my past- Jesus on Every Page by David Murray. The mediatorial work of Jesus did not start with the incarnation. He was present all over in the OT as the angel of the Lord. He talked to Adam in the Garden. I don't have time to squash an entire book into a paragraph, but I do believe the second person/eternal word was very much present in the OT. And those men communed with him. Murray likens it as an eyedropper BC, and like a power hose after Pentecost , but it is always still water for those given to experience it.


Lastly, re interpretation, you say "So, now we have multiple texts, and two (on their face) directly contradictory expressions. We can't just say that Heb.10:4 just trumps the others, that it invalidates the earlier language. "

I say the NT always interprets the old, and where the NT defines or explains the old it always trumps it. Not to invalidate but to clarify what was meant. And yes God gave them the ceremonial system and they needed to obey it, and God saw the blood and forgave sin, but, their union and communion was more than that...it was by faith in the Holy Spirit. But maybe we are beating a dead horse by now on this.

Anyway, I have to go, no time to write more and I haven't had time to even read anything else, so maybe I best drop the subject for now. I can only tell you again that at least one WTS prof said that whatever is new in the new Cov about salvation, it wasn't their experience.
God the Son was not though our great High Priest until the NC was established, as that took the God Man Christ Jesus to do that, as He had to come as Messiah in order to shed His blood for the NC.
 
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