Should women be deacons?

[Herald]

Michael,

I agree with the functional aspect of the "Order of Widows" but not in the positional aspect. In other words "widows indeed" should occupy themselves with the work of charity but not as official or ordained ministers.

 

[Civbert]

Some of those who voted that deaconesses were not scriptural come from traditions that have only an office for deacons and not elders. They believe that a deacon is one who has ecclesiastical authority to govern and rule the church, but this is not scriptural. Deacons are not rulers, authoritative teachers, or governors but servants who are given the function of ministering to the needs of others.

Who are you speaking about?

 

[travis]

Clowney defends female deacons in his book "The Church", no? I am fairly certain that is the reason why my church is sympathetic to it, while also in submission to the PCA's rule of not having them. Clowney was an assistant pastor at my church during its youth and helped shape much of what it is today.

 

[Coram Deo]

I guess I have no problem with an Official Position but not ordained or have hands laid upon one... Why an office need those things... Did other offices have hands laid upon and ordained?

Let leave the laying on of hands and ordination to pastors and deacons but let us also have the order of widows and keep to the qualifications of that office......

Michael,

I agree with the functional aspect of the "Order of Widows" but not in the positional aspect. In other words "widows indeed" should occupy themselves with the work of charity but not as official or ordained ministers.

 

[JBaldwin]

I guess I have no problem with an Official Position but not ordained or have hands laid upon one... Why an office need those things... Did other offices have hands laid upon and ordained?

Let leave the laying on of hands and ordination to pastors and deacons but let us also have the order of widows and keep to the qualifications of that office......

Michael,

I agree with the functional aspect of the "Order of Widows" but not in the positional aspect. In other words "widows indeed" should occupy themselves with the work of charity but not as official or ordained ministers.

Is this passage I Timothy 5 really referring to an "office of widow". From the context, it appears to me that Paul is instructing them on who to support financially and who not to support financially.

 

[Herald]

Michael, I am not in favor of creating a position. We don't have an "Order of Disciples", do we? That said, I am in favor of widows filling a vital need in the church along with older women. I don't believe it needs to be formalized.

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

The Bayly Blog has dedicated a significant amount of time to this issue...and they've done so magnificently. This is a great post delving into the issue.

Pastor David Bayly's post sparked a follow up by his brother, Tim (linked above)...here is that post calling out the fact PCA churches are violating BCO:

(David) Let's think for a moment about the meaning of presbyterial life.

If the essence of presbyterianism is elders willingly subjecting themselves to their brethren...

And if ordained elders should never willfully violate the PCA's standards without first submitting their teaching or course-of-action to presbytery for approval...

And if those who come to possess beliefs substantially opposed to settled portions of PCA standards should leave the PCA for a denomination sympathetic to their new convictions rather than mar PCA harmony by staying and fighting...

Then what, pray tell, are we to make of PCA churches actually laying hands upon women (and men) in services of "commissioning" to the diaconal office?

And what are we to make of this overture to the PCA's 2008 General Assembly from the Philadelphia Presbytery asking General Assembly to sanction retroactively the ordination of women to an office clearly forbidden them by PCA standards?

And finally, why has no one sought to discipline these churches and this presbytery?

The irony is so thick you could cut it.

(Thanks for the link, Andrew)

Good points, but not surprising. The PCA (of which I am a member) has been "slouching towards Gommorah" for quite awhile.

Sir, the PCA stills has "a few names...who have not defiled their garments."

 

[J. David Kear]

There are no female deacons in the Bible, a Scriptural qualification for being a deacon is that you are a man, thus we should not have female deacons today.

So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?

She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.

Translation: she was a diakonon of the Church but not an ordained diakonon.

She was a renegade driving without a license!

 

[Mushroom]

Sir, the PCA stills has "a few names...who have not defiled their garments."

No doubt, brother, and I can tell you that I have shed tears with many of them over the drift of our denomination.

 

[Coram Deo]

Bill,

I am in favor of recreating a position if it is biblical and exampled by the early church which I quoted those examples..... I know as a Baptist you think you must hold to a two office system (Elders and Deacons), Isn't that the T in BapTist acronym: T as in Two Offices , I do not feel as constrained. I left the two office system more then a year ago when I read the Form of Presbyterian Church Government which list Pastor, Elders, Doctors and Deacons... Now I do not hold a distinction between Pastor and Elders as I see them one and in the same but I did come to see the office of Doctor... So I already hold to a Three Office View.. So a Fourth for me is not out of the question as long as the laying on of hands and ordination is not given to other offices besides Elders and Deacons...

If it is in the Bible and I will alter my view accordingly and as far as I see it right now I see a Order of Widows and the Qualifications for the Office in Timothy.

I am not going to get bend out of shape if my view of Two Office System gets crushed or if it can be proven that my Four Office System is not right....

Maybe we are just arguing over semantics as you already said you see the functions of the Order of Widows but where there is qualifications given for a group of people then I believe formality is required and by formality I do not mean Laying on of Hands or Ordination...

Michael, I am not in favor of creating a position. We don't have an "Order of Disciples", do we? That said, I am in favor of widows filling a vital need in the church along with older women. I don't believe it needs to be formalized.

 

[Herald]

Michael,

A point of correction. I don't hold to my church office position because I am a Baptist. I hold to it because I am convinced it is scriptural. As a convinced Presbyterian you hold to your view and that's fine. I am convinced, from scripture, that the "Order of Widows" would be a pragmatic position, not a biblical position. But even though I would deny the formation of an "Order of Widows" I stand behind my opinion that older women and widows are invaluable to the body for service.

 

[MW]

Michael, I am not in favor of creating a position. We don't have an "Order of Disciples", do we? That said, I am in favor of widows filling a vital need in the church along with older women. I don't believe it needs to be formalized.

Well stated, Bill. We would end up with numerous man-made offices if we had to assign every "work" an authoritative and publicly recognised position.

 

[Kevin]

In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?

She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.

Translation: she was a diakonon of the Church but not an ordained diakonon.

She was a renegade driving without a license!

Dr. Mike Kear gave J. David Kear a thumbs up. They must be related.

......PC....Shakes his head and walks away decrying women drivers.......

Especially since he followed one home from Church tonight going 30 in a 40 MPH limit zone.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Bill,

I am in favor of recreating a position if it is biblical and exampled by the early church which I quoted those examples.....

What examples? I didn't see any clear examples. I asked you earlier. And I just want to be clear because I have not heard of what you are talking about. And I have been around Presbyterian's for a long time. I have been a member of two Presbyterian denominations. Where in the OC does it have the office of Doctors? I have never seen anyone ordained a Doctor. I have seen a degree of doctorate confirmed upon a person for education but I didn't know it was an office of the Church. Where are the qualifications for this ordination?

P.S. You would do well to read the book I referenced and gave you a link to.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other Christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.

And this is vital in understanding the role of female deaconesses in the ARP and RPCNA correct?

 

[dwayne]

There are no female deacons in the Bible, a Scriptural qualification for being a deacon is that you are a man, thus we should not have female deacons today.

So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?

She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.

right on brother

 

[Coram Deo]

I already quote this in the other thread.....

Here is a PermaLink to the Quote Office of Doctor


As for the Book.. I have already read and I disagree with it...

Bill,

I am in favor of recreating a position if it is biblical and exampled by the early church which I quoted those examples.....

What examples? I didn't see any clear examples. I asked you earlier. And I just want to be clear because I have not heard of what you are talking about. And I have been around Presbyterian's for a long time. I have been a member of two Presbyterian denominations. Where in the OC does it have the office of Doctors? I have never seen anyone ordained a Doctor. I have seen a degree of doctorate confirmed upon a person for education but I didn't know it was an office of the Church. Where are the qualifications for this ordination?

P.S. You would do well to read the book I referenced and gave you a link to.

 

[Dr Mike Kear]

She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.

Translation: she was a diakonon of the Church but not an ordained diakonon.

She was a renegade driving without a license!

Dr. Mike Kear gave J. David Kear a thumbs up. They must be related.

......PC....Shakes his head and walks away decrying women drivers.......

Especially since he followed one home from Church tonight going 30 in a 40 MPH limit zone.

WAY

We are brothers. God gave him a full head of hair. God gave me good looks and brains (both of which I got when I married my wife )

 

[Dr Mike Kear]

So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?

She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.

Translation: she was a diakonon of the Church but not an ordained diakonon.

She was a renegade driving without a license!

Does this mean that Paul the Apostle was guilty of aiding and abetting the crime of deaconing without a license?

 

[holyfool33]

No it violates scripture the references to female deacons is a title given to the wife of a deacon showing that she is the wife of a deacon not a deacon.

 

[Kevin]

In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other Christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.

And this is vital in understanding the role of female deaconesses in the ARP and RPCNA correct?

Not "vital", but "helpful"!

I came into the ARP from the PCA where I had been ordained to the office of deacon. I was chairman of one of the most active diaconates in the region. We were also part of the TVP during the entire Cedar Springs cerflufel.

At that time, and for a long time after, I was an outspoken opponent of deaconesses. In my opinion it was an anti-biblical accomodation with modern sensibilities and a slippery slope toward feamale elders.

I now know that I was wrong then.

The scriptural argument is hard to be categorical about. The deaconess camp has a prima facia validity.

The historical record is clear. The apostolic & post-apostolic churches did have some sort of quasi-official role for women, as deaconesses or widows.

The majority opinion (of the church triumphant) is in favour of women in *some* office.

The Reformed Church has a tradition of allowing it.

Reformed denominations have a history of accepting women as (non ruling) deaconesses, without adopting women as elders.

QED

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Thanks for that, as a "new" ARP I am learning slowly but surely.

 

[timmopussycat]

But Tim,
I do think there is authority given to these 7 men. They had to determine where the goods went and for what reasons. There is no such office or job without authority. Even a slave has to make some decisions in order to serve his master properly.

But Rae
It is not an exercise of authority to determine whether or not someone fits paramenters set down by others and there was no exercise of authority in the food delivery.

Certainly other serving ministries do not neccessarily have authority over men vested in them.

I would disagree here. It is an exercise of authority to determine if someone fits parameters. The Elders do it when they are ordaining ministers. They are looking at a set of parameters and determining if the canidates meet the parameters.

And I agreee there are ministries that do not necessarily have authority over men.

BTW Tim, my name is Randy.

It is no exercise of authority to determine if someone fits parameters. If you drive by me at 60 mph in a 30 mph zone, even though I am not called to enforce them, I will easily determine that you fit the parameters for speeding. When you pull up at the store, I might walk over and request you to be a more careful driver. But it is the police officer who will authoritatively command and enforce an alteration of your behaviour, either by writing you a ticket or impounding your car (if you are driving under the influence).

Serving deacons do not set parameters nor, unlike policemen, do they command behaviour change (exercise authority). Which is why women can be biblical deacons since such a role involves neither teaching nor being under authority.

 

[timmopussycat]

I agree 1Tim 3:8-13 plainly tells us the requirments of the deacons are. " Deacons likewise must be dignified , not double-toungued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonestgain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignefied, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacon gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus." ESV So I don't think Paul contradicts himself in other scriptures.

The situation is not as plain as it appears. As in all exegesis there are two issues here. What is said and what we think the writer, here Paul intended to mean. At one point in this passage Paul uses an equivocal term and he doesn't define it in context. Writing specifically to Timothy, who knew his teaching and practice, the ommission is unimportant. For us it creates a problem.

The word translated "their wives" can also be tanslated "the women" and Paul does not specify in the surrounding text the alternative he intends. Granted that in the text following this verse Paul speaks specifically of male deacons, but this although indicative, cannot be held to be decisive for us since Paul elsewhere refers to Phoebe as a "deacon" of the Cenchraen church.

We must determine the practice of the early church from the following possibilities:

1) Phoebe was an ordained deacon serving in that church in a non-teaching non-authoritative role, coming to Rome for any number of reasons. Outside the church, she might have been a wealthy widow, a slave of a travelling owner or anything in between.
2)Pheobe was a slave who was a member of the church who was coming to Rome, either sent by her owner or with her owner. In either case for whatever reason she may need help from the Roman Christians.
3) Pheobe was a non-slave Christian coming to Rome and Paul refers to her as a deacon in the same way as he refers to the service of other Christians.
4) Phoebe was a "deaconess" ie. non-authoritative office specifically for women. There is no evidence either way for this possibility. Which leaves the other three possibilities.

I think 3 unlikely. For Paul describing her, uses deacon as noun. Where he is describing service committed by other Christians, deacon is a verb or adverb.
1 and 2 remain possibilities for me and I don't see that we have sufficient evidence to categorically exclude either from consideration. Which means that Scripture leaves the question of women deacons as one of those circumstances "concerning the ... government of the church....which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the word..." (WCF 1:6).

I know that I have left out the phrase "common to human actions and societies" from WCF 1:6 and I did so deliberately. I am not saying my stance is confessional, but I believe that the Confession here posits a principle that can be applied with profit to specifically Christian issues. For there are some matters in Scripture, such as the present case, where we cannot categorically reduce the possible alternative understings to one that is assuredly correct. And instead of dividing from one another over which alternative is correct, we should recognize both alternatives as legitimate possibilities, and recognize that our difference is not fundamentally Scriptural but over which possibility "in our best judgment" is likely. (If anyone is interested in my opinion as to what other issues fall within this class, PM me and I'll start another thread.)

 

[SRoper]

In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.

Then we might as well adopt episcopal church government since the distinction between presbyter and bishop was very early as well.

 

[Coram Deo]

The distinction between presbyter and bishop in the early church was only a distinction between the functions of the church....

So Bishops are Presbyters when they go to Session, Presbytery, or Synod....

There was no other material difference between Bishops and Presbyters in the Earliest Church...

It is sort of like the other functions of the Pastor...

He is Overseer during Oversight and during Discipline times
He is Pastor when he Pastors the Flock
He is Presbyter when in councils

In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.

Then we might as well adopt episcopal church government since the distinction between presbyter and bishop was very early as well.

 

[shackleton]

From the Holman Dictionary of the Bible under deacon: The list of qualifications in 1 Timothy 3:11 requires that “women” must “likewise” (NASB) be similar in character to the men. Although this remark may refer to the wives of male deacons (KJV, NIV) it probably should be interpreted as a parenthetical reference to female deacons, or deaconesses (NIV footnote; NASB footnote; NRSV footnote). Romans 16:1 refers to Phebe as a diakonos of the church at Cenchrea. Williams New Testament translates this as deaconess. The NRSV uses “deacon.” Other translations use “servant.” In this verse, Phebe’s role as “helper” and Paul’s obvious regard for her work seem to support the conclusion that she functioned as a deacon in her church. Deaconesses are mentioned prominently in Christian writings of the first several centuries. They cared for needy fellow believers, visited the sick, and were especially charged with assisting in the baptism of women converts.

Fred A. Grissom

 

[Mushroom]

If I thought the PCA's reason for studying this issue was due to some new and better understanding of scripture, I'd be less skeptical, but we all know that the cause is the effect of feminism on the mindset of the membership. Maybe we should just put every controversial doctrine up for a vote, and change the name to the Wikiterian Church in America.

 

[DMcFadden]

Brad,

Unfortunately, the endorsement of feminism within broad evangelicalism is infecting you guys in the Presbyterian denominations too. When I went to seminary, you would get "looks" if you disagreed with the emerging party line of egalitarianism. Still, it was possible to hold to a complimentarian view as long as you were willing to considered a kind of theological luddite. Within a decade of my graduation, a professor was scolded by the dean (of the same seminary) for teaching the complimentarian view of 1 Timothy 2. Along with that, students were not permitted to submit term papers for grading unless they used inclusive language. Finally, the culture in that seminary became so hostile to any other view that I know of one woman graduate who left in a huff from her seat on a denominatinoal ordination committee because a man on the committee dared to suggest that Paul may not have intended the ordination of women for pastoral office (based on his biblical convictions).

Now, Inter Varsity will not even publish a book that takes anything other than an egalitarian view of men and women. The "party line" among evangelical theologs (including many PCA folk) is the egalitarian position.