Should we forgive those who do not repent?

[bwsmith]

When you go back and read about the fellow lowered down, and the man at Bethesda, they wanted to be healed of their maladies; Christ did so, but in such a way that proved His authority to forgive sins – He came back to the man at Bethesda and in 5:14 tells though he is well –not redeemed – stop sinning! (John 5:14)

He grants the repentance –

 

[bwsmith]

How often have you practiced these principles, and to what end have you seen them working?

 

[bwsmith]

I am not avoiding dealing with them -- I am telling you again that forbearance, forgiveness between the offended party and God is the first step – in God’s time, HE may work repentance in the heart of the one who offended. Until He does, the one who is offended does well to remember the debt he (or she) owes God.

When it comes to reconciling personal conflicts, faith and repentance are not two side of one coin!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

bwsmith,

Let me suggest something to you.

Instead of trying to understand what the Biblical foundation of repentance and forgiveness are and what the Word of God have to say, I keep noticing that you want to keep falling back to a Peacemakers model.

It seems whenever a Biblical principle is laid out that, in itself, demands a specific understanding, you keep wanting to force each principle into a Peacemakers schema.

Honestly, these interactions convince me that you really don't have a good appreciation for the nature of regeneration and what God's monergistic work in redemption accomplishes in His saints. You want to compress everything at times and neglect the real distinguishing characteristic between what God initiates in a human heart and how a heart responds.

You further lack a solid appreciation for the real consequences of sin and in some ways you undermine the necessity of Christ's work to atone for sin by divorcing the instrument that one procures forgiveness from forgiveness itself. They can be distinguished but never separated.

Henceforth, in this discussion, I really must insist that you stick to Scripture and not refer to a Peacemaker schema. If your case is going to be made here then it needs to be made on the basis of the Word of God. Otherwise, discussions where Joshua (and others) try to convince you from Scripture only to have it processed through a Peacemaker grid are doomed to endless circles.

This thread is shockingly long for some principles that are really quite fundamental. I'm telling you this not to upbraid you or discourage you in your walk but to starkly notify you that I'm concerned about some of your basic assumptions and how they've been affected by a source external to Scripture.

 

[bwsmith]

About two years ago a close family member of mine (who is not a Christian) did something that involved one of my daughters…she was 5 years old at the time. My daughter came and told my wife and I about the incident. To this day, not only is this person unrepentant, but still claims that nothing ever happened. This family member insists that what our daughter told us is false.

To be very honest, even after two years I am still struggling with forgiving this person. How can you forgive someone who to this day claims that their offense is a lie?

Since the incident happened, we have not spoken to one another. All communication has been severed. Does forgiveness entail resuming contact with someone who will not even admit his wrong doing?

Also, how for does forgiveness go? As long as this person maintains the position that this whole thing was fabricated, do I ever let this person back into my immediate family life with my wife and children?

I can understand! We have coped with a brutal murder in our family – We told him what we believed, then have purposed to forgive, though the murderer expressed no remorse at the time.

A dear friend was violated by a relative when she was tiny – and the stance her family took of supporting her, believing her, helped her so much! Eschewing contact affirms your faith in your child, and will do much in her healing and recovery – Asking God to forgive, bring him to his senses for you know one day Christ will confront this man, and “jog” his memory – (Matt 25:41-46) – may he repent today!

 

[bwsmith]

Yes, I would. But I'm not sure I see where you're going with that question.

Formerly you wrote:

It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repentant I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.​

Where I am going is that in the church, and out, God establishes and/or permits relationships that we need to tend, even if they are painful -- and it isn't so simple as refusing to be friends.

 

[bwsmith]

bwsmith,

Let me suggest something to you.

Instead of trying to understand what the Biblical foundation of repentance and forgiveness are and what the Word of God have to say, I keep noticing that you want to keep falling back to a Peacemakers model.

It seems whenever a Biblical principle is laid out that, in itself, demands a specific understanding, you keep wanting to force each principle into a Peacemakers schema.

Honestly, these interactions convince me that you really don't have a good appreciation for the nature of regeneration and what God's monergistic work in redemption accomplishes in His saints. You want to compress everything at times and neglect the real distinguishing characteristic between what God initiates in a human heart and how a heart responds.

You further lack a solid appreciation for the real consequences of sin and in some ways you undermine the necessity of Christ's work to atone for sin by divorcing the instrument that one procures forgiveness from forgiveness itself. They can be distinguished but never separated.

Henceforth, in this discussion, I really must insist that you stick to Scripture and not refer to a Peacemaker schema. If your case is going to be made here then it needs to be made on the basis of the Word of God. Otherwise, discussions where Joshua (and others) try to convince you from Scripture only to have it processed through a Peacemaker grid are doomed to endless circles.

This thread is shockingly long for some principles that are really quite fundamental. I'm telling you this not to upbraid you or discourage you in your walk but to starkly notify you that I'm concerned about some of your basic assumptions and how they've been affected by a source external to Scripture.

It has been a shockingly long thread – and it’s length seems to reveal a tension between doctrine and practice . And perhaps you have not been able to carefully read what I have written?
I am sorry that you doubt my appreciation for the nature of regeneration and what God's monergistic work in redemption accomplishes in His saints.

I have stuck to Scripture – and more than once cited BobVigneault’s arguments as well reflecting my own.

The biblical basis for forgiving ( in non-church discipline matters) in the absence of a repentance is the knowledge of how great our debt to God. (Matthew 18 – the whole chapter) I have also cited Christ’s commands to forgive: Matthew 6:12-14; 11:25; Luke 11:4 – and I rely on Matthew Henry’s commentary: Luke 11:1-13
We forgive our debtors, but in particular, "We profess to forgive every one that is indebted to us, without exception. We so forgive our debtors as not to bear malice or ill-will to any, but true love to all, without any exception whatsoever." (from Matthew Henry's Commentary )

Luke 17:3 – is an important verse – for its context addresses how to relate to one who continually sins and repents – Luke 17:1-10
“Note, Christians should be of a forgiving spirit, willing to make the best of every body, and to make all about them easy; forward to extenuate faults, and not to aggravate them; and they should contrive as much to show that they have forgiven an injury as others to show that they resent it.” (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: .)

I also rely upon Charles Spurgeon’s article, The Peacemaker – and a discussion of Luke 23:34 by John Calvin. And as I cited, I checked each reply with my husband who is an elder in a PCA church, and works on many projects for Christian conciliation.

 

[bwsmith]

PS. I have run all my responses by my husband, who is an elder in the PCA.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

My point stands. I'm not going to argue with you about the standard here. It may be that you're having difficulty articulating and your husband is welcome to interact here if he so desires.

I also see nothing in what Bob has said as being incompatible with what I'm insisting upon here.

There is a jumping back and forth between understanding the doctrines of Grace and then utilizing historical narrative in a strained manner to support a generic point about "attitudes of forgiveness."

It appears to me as I peer in every now and again that you cannot appreciate that Joshua is granting that we are not to hold grudges but you want to consistently force that into a "forgiveness without repentance" scheme based upon a parachurch ministry's teaching and then supporting it, not with didactic passages, but with narratives and arguments from silence.

Consider this from the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q. 153. What doth God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse due to us by reason of the transgression of the law?

A. That we may escape the wrath and curse of God due to us by reason of the transgression of the law, he requireth of us repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ,990 and the diligent use of the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation.991

On the petition: "Forgive us our debts...":

Q. 194. What do we pray for in the fifth petition?
A. In the fifth petition, (which is, Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors,1265) acknowledging, that we and all others are guilty both of original and actual sin, and thereby become debtors to the justice of God; and that neither we, nor any other creature, can make the least satisfaction for that debt:1266 we pray for ourselves and others, that God of his free grace would, through the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, apprehended and applied by faith, acquit us both from the guilt and punishment of sin,1267 accept us in his Beloved;1268 continue his favour and grace to us,1269 pardon our daily failings,1270 and fill us with peace and joy, in giving us daily more and more assurance of forgiveness;1271 which we are the rather emboldened to ask, and encouraged to expect, when we have this testimony in ourselves, that we from the heart forgive others their offenses.1272

In other words, it is perfectly acceptable to pray for the forgiveness of others but they are not forgiven unless they repent and receive forgiveness of sins from God whom they have offended.

You may find the prooftexts for these ideas by visiting http://www.temeculaopc.org/wlc.htm

 

[bwsmith]

Dear Sir,
You have not paid attention to what I actually said, therefore I will not continue this conversation.

 

[bwsmith]

I haven’t said that – I have said that forgiveness must needs be our response on personal conflicts that are not quickly resolved – it is the first step – what we purpose before God – how we address our grievance with those who cannot or do not repent is another matter.

Christ healed these men, to demonstrate His Authority to forgive sins –

 

[bwsmith]

Actually, I have – and I am going to keep repeating it:

The biblical basis for forgiving ( in non-church discipline matters) in the absence of a repentance is
1) the knowledge of how great our debt to God. (Matthew 18 – the whole chapter)
2) I have also cited Christ’s commands to forgive: Matthew 6:12-14; 11:25; Luke 11:4 –
in none of these does HE say “Be willing” – He says do it.
and I rely on Matthew Henry’s commentary on Luke 11:1-13

We forgive our debtors, but in particular, "We profess to forgive every one that is indebted to us, without exception. We so forgive our debtors as not to bear malice or ill-will to any, but true love to all, without any exception whatsoever." (from Matthew Henry's Commentary ) ​

3) Luke 17:3 – is an important verse – for its context addresses how to relate to one who continually sins and repents – Luke 17:1-10

“Note, Christians should be of a forgiving spirit, willing to make the best of every body, and to make all about them easy; forward to extenuate faults, and not to aggravate them; and they should contrive as much to show that they have forgiven an injury as others to show that they resent it.” (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible .)​

“Our forgiving others will not procure forgiveness for ourselves; but our not forgiving others proves that we ourselves are not forgiven.” (John Owen From _A Puritan Golden Treasury_, Puritan Paperbacks, I.D.E. Thomas, The Banner of Truth Trust.)

“We need not climb into heaven to see whether our sins are forgiven; let us look into our hearts, and see if we can forgive others. If we can, we need not doubt but God has forgiven us” (Thomas Watson)

 

[satz]

When a man ‘sins’ there can be two kinds of sins. Sins against God, and sins against man. The majority of sins against man are also sins against God because they are in violation of God’s law. Hence David after sinning against both Bathsheba and her husband still could say he had sinned against God only (Ps 51:4). For sins of this nature the question ‘Should we forgive those who do not repent’ breaks down, as it is not our business to forgive in the first place. These sins are properly against God and only he can truly offer forgiveness, and it is toward him that repentance should be directed.

However there are another category of ‘sins’ that are against man alone and these are identified by the bible as being the ‘smallest matters’ of life (1 Cor 6:1-3). Sins against God cannot be identified as small matters, so we understand that there exist offences between men that do not rise to the level of sins against God. It is in this category of offenses, that I think there is room for forgiveness without repentance. Since these are small matters and have not risen to the level of offending God, it is better to simply let ourselves be offended rather than confront a brother or sister (1 Cor 6:7). I think this is another application for Proverbs 19:11, these are transgressions that are against us and not God, so it is glorious to simply pass over, ignore them and forget them. There is no reason to think we are so important that we need to extract an apology from the other party before the matter can be settled.

Remember, this does not apply to sins that are against God, even if those sins are also secondarily against us as well. But I think some of the discussion thus far has mixed up the two categories of sins, which has resulted in some confusion.

 

[bwsmith]

“Thus, it follows that who in the parable is condemned? The man who didn't forgive his fellow servant who showed forth repentance. God has said that we are to forgive as He forgave us. And how's that? Grace, no doubt! And yet, we're not forgiven until we repent. I would never deny that it's the work of the Holy Spirit; I'm not sure where it was implied that I'd believe something other than that.”

I have cited the whole of Matthew as a basis for a conversation I would have with GOD about dealing with an unrepentant offender. See please Matt 18:21-22 . My willingness before GOD to forgive the debt owed me flows from remembering what I owe God.

I have cited Christ’s commands to forgive – so when speaking to Him about the one who offends, I will say Yes to Him – and trust Him to work repentance.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Well, with those strange twists and turns, I'm closing this thread.

I would just mention to Mark (satz): There is no such thing as a sin that is not against God. We cannot sin against another man without sinning against God.

A man might be offended by what we do even if we have not sinned against him.

When I spank my child, provided I did it within proper bounds and I did not sin in anger, then I do not sin against my child. He might be angry that I'm spanking him but I have not sinned.

Likewise, there are many situations where brothers and sisters in the Church do things that offend us, even when they have not sinned. Many of those issues might be simple courtesies or manners of speech that unintentionally offended. We are called to cover up such things in love and not be quickly offended. Again, these are not sins. Christ didn't have to die on the Cross to cover over the fact that some guy is chewing with his mouth open and I'm offended.

But covering over a slight in love is not the same as forgiveness.

Even my child understands the answer to this question:
What is sin?

Sin is any want of conformity or trangression of the Law of God.

Any time a person sins they have either done something God commanded they not do or did not do something He commanded them to. We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves.

If we are sinned against, we do not hold the keys of judgment and we are commanded to pray for forgiveness but true forgiveness always demands repentance. Full stop. That is in our Confession. If people want to claim otherwise then they need to show how the Confession needs to be amended.

I'm simply not interested in squishy language here. There's a reason why the language is relatively precise to help us understand that sin is not just something that is overlooked or therapeutically salved by our attitude toward it. Though we do not have to let another's unrepentant sin have dominion over us, neither can we un-confessionally proclaim that another stands forgiven of a sin that has not been covered with the blood of Christ. A heart that does not repent of sin is not a heart that is tender to the Gospel

This is not brain surgery. I'm ending a long thread on a teaching that is very well defined in Reformed Confessions and Scripture.