Should seminaries be training more missionaries?

[Pergamum]

Ah, yes,

Those in the West, in America, are not Christians almost always because they do not want what is offered.

I have yet to meet someone who had no access to a bible in the USA. If someone were curious and wanted to seek, they could find easily here.

Do you think that there is a geographical aspect to God's decree in that there are some countries that God has limited those whom He will elect from within?

AMR

I don't understand your question.

I think God is calling some from every tongue, tribe and nation.

I think, therefore, part of Christian stewardship is the allocation of our resources in such a way that all tribes, tongues and nations therefore have a witness. This means that if one area has 80-90% of the resources while other places are totally without, that we should focus more greatly on the darkest areas. Our present system of theological education does not stress this largely and our "food" therefore goes to feed the already well-fed.

 

[Grimmson]

Those in the West, in America, are not Christians almost always because they do not want what is offered.

I have yet to meet someone who had no access to a bible in the USA. If someone were curious and wanted to seek, they could find easily here.

I would rather minister to the truly starving instead of spiritual anorexics who refuse to eat when the bread of life is within arm's reach.

“The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; [There is] none who does good, No, not one.”- Psalms 14:3-4 (NJKV)

“Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; [There is] none who does good, No, not one.”-Psalms 53:3 (NKJV)

“Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God.”- Luke 18:18-19 (NKJV)

I am surprised to some degree Pergamum’s statement, because despite the fact many non-Christians have access to the Bible they of course they will not come to God in faith. For it is man’s nature not to come to God because we are corrupt beings that are incapable of being good and run after the true. No one outside of God’s divine special grace has the ability to understand what God wants.

I would not say we live in a “spiritual anorexics who refuse to eat when the bread of life is within arm's reach”, but are instead are starving because they do not know who the bread of life is.

“For ‘whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.’ How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?" So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:13-17 (NKJV)

I think that quite a few people who claim to be Christians don't really understand the gospel so how can we say that the majority of non Christians know the gospel but have just rejected it.

Until we really get it down here with people next door, I do not think we should spend that much time worrying about people around the world.

To some degree I agree with Christian Trader here. Most people in are pews do not understand the Gospel, because of a lack of training within our Churches. It is true that we have a ton of resources, but most people do not know what those resources are and have this dumb down view of scripture, instead of the full council being taught. Most people do not know what God’s ordained means of proclaiming the Gospel and look at it as their pastor’s or elder’s job instead of it being their own. Their not being taught this and that the fault of our teachers and the fault of their teachers as well.

How do we expect non-christians to understand the gospel if Christians do not. What they many times get is a false Christ and a false Gospel thinking that it is the real thing from real Christians, however those that may be real on are their duff doing nothing. We have plenty of people in need here and I have personally meet many of the unchurched who have never heard the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ; some of which that grew up in church and was primarily taught moralism.

We forget that faith comes by hearing, and hearing what? The word of God. By just expecting people to open up a Bible to find out about God’s grace is just dumb and I would say you do not understand the depravity of man and God’s ordained means for receiving the Gospel by faith. We must preach Christ where ever we are and that includes the United States of American; we preach in season and out, regardless of where we are at. And to do so with wisdom and patience the those who do not believe and those young in the faith. Are pastors have neglected their flock and their duty to feed and protect them, so the outcome is a skinny starved people. Men are like sheep, we do not always know what we need; therefore we need a leader to guide us and to teach us. Therefore if are leaders are truly that, leaders, then we will not always get what we want, but instead get what we need.

I do not agree with ChristianTrader’s last sentence. We are the church and it is our duty to carry out the message of Christ to the ends of the world to the end of the age. Yes we should prepare people for next door, but at the same time be minded and mature enough to look at those that need Christ outside of our political borders. Both must be done and not be neglected. Not all men are called to missions, but the church is called to send out missionaries. Therefore as we teach and train our own, we send out the more mature in the faith to do the duty God has graciously given to us for his glory alone.

I do not care who you all much rather minster to, I want Christ and him crucified for sins preached and taught. I want his resurrection proclaimed as the evidence of what Christ has done. We must care for all people regardless of who they are and what they do, because without Christ, they are damned because of their works and lack there of. We have only one hope and we should not hid it and keep it secret to ourselves within the world, and that includes the small Muslim nations to the United States of America. We cannot expect people to be curious about God, but must take the initiative as the Lord our God has commanded us. Remember we do not know who God has placed his special grace to, so we continue to labor wherever we are, because one had to do the same for us in God’s grace. So really are wants are meaningless to the task we have been given to do.

Pergamum, how can you expect people here in The US and the rest of the West to “do not want what is offered” if they do not hear or understand God’s truth of the Gospel? It is for that reason we need people here as well. You know my views on missions and how important I see them. True Christian stewardship places are resources in the hand of not just those who are out in another country , but trains those who are here to be a missionary to your next door neighbor, to your co-worker, to your family member, to your good friend a three streets down, and so on. Are we wasteful and neglectful of some things, yes. I am not claiming we are not. However, that pork on the top is something are leaders will have to give an account for as being our leaders, who were suppose to watch out for us and teach us.

So let us try to be balanced in our approach, because all men must repent and hear God’s truth and you know what that means to an end is now. We are not to be the hyper-Calvinist people claim of some of us, nor must we recognize that some people who do not hear the Gospel is our personal fault. We all have gifts and a duty for the Kingdom and do what we must now where God has placed us, because remember he is sovereign and his will be done regardless. Let us be a people of grace and show that grace in love by preaching to are fellow man in Africa, South American, the West, the East, wherever we are the Gospel so that all men everywhere can hear the Gospel, have faith, and repent as the Lord wishes all men to do everywhere.

I do not think many in our churches are "well-fed", and I think we can see the evidence of that in our churches. They may have cotton candy, but not all that they need to have a growing diet to sustain their needs as they grow in Christ. You would not give your son cotton candy to live on; therefore just as in the church real food must be given for their growth in the church. We need them to have meat, carrots, spinach, and all of the nutritious doctrine that will sustain their souls. The Church has been given more then just red letters, and we have much to feast on, but most of are churches do not and the preachers have tickled the ears of those they preach to. And instead of giving up on the church, we must call her to repentence before it is to late for the people are straving and do not know it.

 

[Grafted In]

Since the Great Commission was given to the apostles to go and make disciples of all nations, and given that the need for a gospel witness is SO much higher in other countries, shouldn't we expect that a great majority of our seminary graduates will be sent out overseas as missionaries as opposed to serving in churches in the Western world?

Your premise seems to be that the leaders of our seminaries have got it all wrong, no?

AMR

No. They are doing many good things. But they keep preparing to feed the most well-fed instead of focusing on the most-hungry. They are doing good things, but are not allocating resources in proportion to where the needs lie. If most of the needs lie outside the US and seminary is primarily geared towards US service, then this does not seem like good strategy. Many, many seminaries and bible schools are very weak in missions preparation.

I am preparing to go to seminary myself, and having looked at a number of seminaries and the tracks of preparation that they offer I would agree with your comment that they are "very weak in missions preparation."

While I see this as a problem, I do not believe that the seminaries, or the individuals leading the seminaries, are the source of the problem (not that you do either).

The way I see it, the underlying disease that gives rise to the symptom that we are discussing in this thread (namely a lack of seminary trained men and women being sent outside of the US to win to Christ those who are living without the light of the gospel) lies not in the seminaries of America, but the churches of America.

How many pastors/elders are looking out upon the young in their church in order to identify, encourage, disciple and send them into missionary work?

I personally "wasted" (albeit under the sovereign hand of God) years as a young Christian sensing a call to the ministry, but sitting on my hands waiting for a "word from God" because I didn't want a subjective feeling to be the sole reason that I pursued shepherding God's flock as my life's work. During those years I had many pastors/elders ask me to lead youth group or Sunday School, but not one of them asked me if I felt called to give my life to shepherding God's people. Not one of these pastor/elders every looked at me, or any other young man in the church, and considered calling them into the pastoral work in the US, let alone among the unreached around the world.

If churches were connecting themselves to bible schools and seminaries and telling them that they were going to be sending their youth to them to be trained for gospel ministry overseas, I guarantee you that seminaries would be doing it. The seminaries should be serving the churches, and they are. The churches are driving the agenda and the programs of the seminaries. The churches just are not calling, discipling and sending future missionaries to seminaries and asking that they be prepared for global mission work.

I am afraid that many young people are "called" to ministry not from within the walls of the local church, but from the impersonal and detached stadiums of traveling youth rallies and "worship" events that provide an experience and guilt-driven pleas to do something for God.

 

[Pergamum]

Those in the West, in America, are not Christians almost always because they do not want what is offered.

I have yet to meet someone who had no access to a bible in the USA. If someone were curious and wanted to seek, they could find easily here.

I would rather minister to the truly starving instead of spiritual anorexics who refuse to eat when the bread of life is within arm's reach.

I am surprised to some degree Pergamum’s statement, because despite the fact many non-Christians have access to the Bible they of course they will not come to God in faith. For it is man’s nature not to come to God because we are corrupt beings that are incapable of being good and run after the true. No one outside of God’s divine special grace has the ability to understand what God wants.

I would not say we live in a “spiritual anorexics who refuse to eat when the bread of life is within arm's reach”, but are instead are starving because they do not know who the bread of life is.

“For ‘whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.’ How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?" So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:13-17 (NKJV)








Within an hour's drive there is a PCA, OPC or solid baptist church for most of the population of the US. If faith comes by hearing, those in the US have 100,000 times more opportunities to hear than some in the 10-40 Window. It is a matter of stewardship therefore, to try to send the Gospel to darker areas.

I am surprised that you are surprised by my statements.

 

[Pergamum]

Your premise seems to be that the leaders of our seminaries have got it all wrong, no?

AMR

No. They are doing many good things. But they keep preparing to feed the most well-fed instead of focusing on the most-hungry. They are doing good things, but are not allocating resources in proportion to where the needs lie. If most of the needs lie outside the US and seminary is primarily geared towards US service, then this does not seem like good strategy. Many, many seminaries and bible schools are very weak in missions preparation.

I am preparing to go to seminary myself, and having looked at a number of seminaries and the tracks of preparation that they offer I would agree with your comment that they are "very weak in missions preparation."

While I see this as a problem, I do not believe that the seminaries, or the individuals leading the seminaries, are the source of the problem (not that you do either).

The way I see it, the underlying disease that gives rise to the symptom that we are discussing in this thread (namely a lack of seminary trained men and women being sent outside of the US to win to Christ those who are living without the light of the gospel) lies not in the seminaries of America, but the churches of America.

How many pastors/elders are looking out upon the young in their church in order to identify, encourage, disciple and send them into missionary work?

I personally "wasted" (albeit under the sovereign hand of God) years as a young Christian sensing a call to the ministry, but sitting on my hands waiting for a "word from God" because I didn't want a subjective feeling to be the sole reason that I pursued shepherding God's flock as my life's work. During those years I had many pastors/elders ask me to lead youth group or Sunday School, but not one of them asked me if I felt called to give my life to shepherding God's people. Not one of these pastor/elders every looked at me, or any other young man in the church, and considered calling them into the pastoral work in the US, let alone among the unreached around the world.

If churches were connecting themselves to bible schools and seminaries and telling them that they were going to be sending their youth to them to be trained for gospel ministry overseas, I guarantee you that seminaries would be doing it. The seminaries should be serving the churches, and they are. The churches are driving the agenda and the programs of the seminaries. The churches just are not calling, discipling and sending future missionaries to seminaries and asking that they be prepared for global mission work.

I am afraid that many young people are "called" to ministry not from within the walls of the local church, but from the impersonal and detached stadiums of traveling youth rallies and "worship" events that provide an experience and guilt-driven pleas to do something for God.

Yes, I agree.

In the NT we see that the whole church got together to fast and pray to see who they could send out. There was an intentional, deliberate effort to identify and send people out.

The church nowadays does not do that very often and are often surprised when a young person seems to be "getting the call" while in their midst. Sometimes when a young person does express such a desire, the church takes a wait and see approach. But, heavy mentoring, instead, is in order.

Local churches should be cultivating young people, mentoring them. While I do not think all pleas to "do something for God" are guilt-driven, but are worthy exhortations to young people, the nurturing of our people towards a more evangelistic faith ought to be coming from our local leadership.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Pergy, you wrote -

At least a 15% rate of going overseas is more reasonable than what we currently have. Is this a failure for seminaries to prepare, is it a wrong focus, or what?

Please note that seminary isn't basic training. People don't "enlist" in the ministry and then go off to seminary and get told where their assignment will be. Seminaries produce and offer a a product for "consumption." In their case, the product they are selling is an education, but it is a product nonetheless. And like any other aspect of the marketplace, laws of supply and demand factor into the situation. In short, there are relatively few missionary training programs because there is little demand for it. It isn't the job of the seminary to somehow create demand.

The problem, in my opinion, begins and ends with the local church.

First, as I'm sure you're aware, there are countless folks who'll sit in the pews praying that the Lord will raise up missionaries, but then they quietly add the following caveat, "... Just not me or my kids!" The churches should do a better job of trying to instill a missionary spirit, a global vision, a truly universal zeal for the lost in their members. I do think that for all the flak short-term missions trips get, they do have a potentially helpful role in this process.

Second, as has been noted on this Board numerous times by several people, the state of the American church in general is so poor that we encourage many men to pursue the ministry who really have no place in ministry. We are so spiritually apathetic that when someone displays even "some" spiritual zeal, we think that this person is "super spiritual" and "obviously" called into the ministry. So this person gets an artifical sense of calling. But since he HASN'T been summoned by the Lord, he does not have the internal drive and zeal to truly let goods and kindred go, and so the ministry gets looked at like just another career option, be it a noble one.


Anyway, this is overly simplistic, and certainly not all encompassing, but the following suggestions would go a long way:

1. Develop a vision that is global in its perspective. Gospel zeal should ooze from every pore in the church. In this respect I think Piper's church is phenomenal.

2. Churches should seriously raise the bar when it comes to endorsing or encouraging men to pursue the ministry.

 

[Pergamum]

I have had several young people (18-23) desire to learn more about missionary work and their church-going-presumably-saved parents trying to talk them out of it. In one case, I got a personal email from a college-aged student's mother asking me not to email their "kid" anymore because it was "stirring up" their minds when they should be worried about getting an education so that they could land a good job. I am a dangerous influence I guess.


So, yes, I agree 1,000 Percent that this MUST begin with the local church.

 

[Grimmson]

Wow, I have quiet a bit to say. First of all I think there an assumption on many parts what a solid church is and by the vast majority of churches do not meet those qualification, even in hour drive from where I lived in Tucson. You want moralism you can find it. But the gospel as we see in 1 Corinthians 15. I settle for a church that did not preach the full council of God and the result was fighting and discouragement with the pastor, because he refused many times to go with the plain meeting of the text and replace it by whatever is current Christian idol or book he was reading say. In fact he was boastful about the fact he didn’t know Greek or Hebrew. Si we should be careful with the numbers games that we play for all men need to hear the gospel regardless of where they are. Many people who claim to go to church and have done so all of their life do not know the gospel, do you expect those to go out and preach it? If your answer is yes, then we have a real issue and the United States is just as an important straigic spot for the Gospel.

I have a main issue with hoe we prepare the youth. Many times its based from some type of camp or conference experience that gives them a high but no solid foundation and if you ask what the Gospel is, many of them cannot tell you. The reason is because of what their foundation is, and its through Finny and not Christ. We have turned for many missionary work into:

1) A short term vacation
2) A form of works righteous outside for love for God’s people
3) A business that produces little if no fruit, such as these youth camps and dare I say the Crusades, where God’s ordained means are not followed but are replaced like I said with Finny.

Should we excite people about missions? Yes, however we send many out for that experience that are not ready. The youth must be trained, before they seriously go out and there is no training. Would I allow a young person that came to faith in a short amount of time to go out? Depends on where we are going and what are goal is. I certainly would not send the teen if I didn’t think they were mature to handle it.

Many people here need to know Christ and some of the biblical solid churches cannot afford to send someone out. They just cannot afford to make the sacrifice. We cannot afford to turn this into a numbers game.

Have you ever been to a church started by missionaries without that doctrinal foundation that needed? It is a scare place, especially in some central and South American countries, and even China and Africa. We need to send trained people and not young people who do not have a strong grasp of the Gospel, who cannot teach simple truths like how we are justified before God, or many our essential beliefs.

I agree with Ben a 100 percent regarding the super spiritual and the calling. Zeal must also exist with patience, otherwise the effect with be disaster. And I think we need to remember that not all men are called to do the same work for the Lord, but as the body we are called to the same mission.

 

[Pergamum]

Wow, I have quiet a bit to say. First of all I think there an assumption on many parts what a solid church is and by the vast majority of churches do not meet those qualification, even in hour drive from where I lived in Tucson. You want moralism you can find it. But the gospel as we see in 1 Corinthians 15. I settle for a church that did not preach the full council of God and the result was fighting and discouragement with the pastor, because he refused many times to go with the plain meeting of the text and replace it by whatever is current Christian idol or book he was reading say. In fact he was boastful about the fact he didn’t know Greek or Hebrew. Si we should be careful with the numbers games that we play for all men need to hear the gospel regardless of where they are. Many people who claim to go to church and have done so all of their life do not know the gospel, do you expect those to go out and preach it? If your answer is yes, then we have a real issue and the United States is just as an important straigic spot for the Gospel.

I have a main issue with hoe we prepare the youth. Many times its based from some type of camp or conference experience that gives them a high but no solid foundation and if you ask what the Gospel is, many of them cannot tell you. The reason is because of what their foundation is, and its through Finny and not Christ. We have turned for many missionary work into:

1) A short term vacation
2) A form of works righteous outside for love for God’s people
3) A business that produces little if no fruit, such as these youth camps and dare I say the Crusades, where God’s ordained means are not followed but are replaced like I said with Finny.

Should we excite people about missions? Yes, however we send many out for that experience that are not ready. The youth must be trained, before they seriously go out and there is no training. Would I allow a young person that came to faith in a short amount of time to go out? Depends on where we are going and what are goal is. I certainly would not send the teen if I didn’t think they were mature to handle it.

Many people here need to know Christ and some of the biblical solid churches cannot afford to send someone out. They just cannot afford to make the sacrifice. We cannot afford to turn this into a numbers game.

Have you ever been to a church started by missionaries without that doctrinal foundation that needed? It is a scare place, especially in some central and South American countries, and even China and Africa. We need to send trained people and not young people who do not have a strong grasp of the Gospel, who cannot teach simple truths like how we are justified before God, or many our essential beliefs.

I agree with Ben a 100 percent regarding the super spiritual and the calling. Zeal must also exist with patience, otherwise the effect with be disaster. And I think we need to remember that not all men are called to do the same work for the Lord, but as the body we are called to the same mission.

If you consider most PCA or OPC churches or baptist churches affiliated with FIRE or ARBCA to be solid, then you can find a solid church relatively close to you. It is better than the situation in some places in Asia where there are cities of one million and no known believers of any type.

Of course, if you restrict your view of who a Christian is and what a real church is, or even a fairly solid church is, down to a very narrow definition... then no definition I give you will satisfay you. Please don't get the Elijah Complex. Most cities and medium sized town in the US have something that qualifies as a real church.

Also, most can get to a Bible within an hour and go to sermon audio or the internet too. This is NOT the case in many many places in the world.



About some of your other points:

-The average missionaries I know have much better doctrine than the average preachers in the US.

-The average church in the US has much more money than they realize and they live very pampered lives compared to even Americans 50 years ago and 98% of the rest of the world right now. If we truly prioritize missions sending, we will be surprised just how many more we could send.

-I don't see many people being sent out that are not ready. There is a great deal of training before they go.

--We are not sending out teens. Most mission orgs are NOT like YWAM, and the average age in my missionary org is FORTY YEARS OLD and many have had considerable church experience in US churches before they are sent out. I am a young guy in my org at 34.



You have quite a bit to say, but what is your main point?

My main point is that we need to prioritize missions work to a greater degree and that even our training facilities reflect this lack of proper prioritization. If we had more solid training facilities all of these bad trends you are highlighting would decrease, wouldn't they?

If we prioritized missions more, we would not only prioritize getting more people "over there" but we would also prioritize training them better so that they would operate more Biblically once over there. Your objections only serve to drive home my point more...we should be training missionaries better, and this would invovle better training and better missions programs at seminiares and bible colleges.

 

[Grimmson]

I want to first address your main point.

“If we had more solid training facilities all of these bad trends you are highlighting would decrease, wouldn't they?”

The issue I think is not solid training facilites, but solid churches not being as involved as they should. We depend to much on para-church organization and to some degree seminaries for the training up of our leaders, instead of them being home grown.

Most professional missionaries I know are no were close to that Fifty age mark and closer to my age of 29. How many around that 50 mark are professional verses short term missions? Personally I have no problem with retired people going out anyway, their alive and most of their responsibility for family has been completed as parents and the same in the work place.

I know of many churches in Asia that reach past that million mark for that city’s population, so there are many churches that exist in the higher population, they are just a bit more secretive for one or more reasons, such as their nation being closed.

In regards to Sermon Audio, let us first remember that should not be a replacement for church. Two, it is in English, and some perhaps in Spanish. If pastors in Asia want to construct something similar in China or India then they should. But lets face it most people in the US are not as big fans of Sermon Audio verses people like me.

In regards to FIRE or ARBCA, we don’t have a church in Tucson affiliated with them. In fact we don’t have a OPC. There are places here in the US you may have to travel longer then an hour for a church here in the US due to population, this is no different in many places in Asia.

And concerning getting Bibles in people’s hands, the unbelieving do not care of they have access to a bible or not. Sure you have freedom, doesn’t mean they will use it for they are unregenerated.

My main point is in a place like ours where the vast majority of the Church is dead or dying we need to missions here and actually this battle ground would be good preparation for else where in the world. And we do need to becareful who we send, but the local church can decide that.

 

[Pergamum]

I want to first address your main point.

“If we had more solid training facilities all of these bad trends you are highlighting would decrease, wouldn't they?”

The issue I think is not solid training facilites, but solid churches not being as involved as they should. We depend to much on para-church organization and to some degree seminaries for the training up of our leaders, instead of them being home grown.

Most professional missionaries I know are no were close to that Fifty age mark and closer to my age of 29. How many around that 50 mark are professional verses short term missions? Personally I have no problem with retired people going out anyway, their alive and most of their responsibility for family has been completed as parents and the same in the work place.

I know of many churches in Asia that reach past that million mark for that city’s population, so there are many churches that exist in the higher population, they are just a bit more secretive for one or more reasons, such as their nation being closed.

In regards to Sermon Audio, let us first remember that should not be a replacement for church. Two, it is in English, and some perhaps in Spanish. If pastors in Asia want to construct something similar in China or India then they should. But lets face it most people in the US are not as big fans of Sermon Audio verses people like me.

In regards to FIRE or ARBCA, we don’t have a church in Tucson affiliated with them. In fact we don’t have a OPC. There are places here in the US you may have to travel longer then an hour for a church here in the US due to population, this is no different in many places in Asia.

And concerning getting Bibles in people’s hands, the unbelieving do not care of they have access to a bible or not. Sure you have freedom, doesn’t mean they will use it for they are unregenerated.

My main point is in a place like ours where the vast majority of the Church is dead or dying we need to missions here and actually this battle ground would be good preparation for else where in the world. And we do need to becareful who we send, but the local church can decide that.

Under your rationale, there should also be no seminaries and all training should occur from within the local church. Mission societies perform much of the same role as seminaries do, to come alongside local churches and help them in areas of expertise that local churches do not possess.

We are not in an either/or situation, missionaries being sent will not siphon off the strength of the churches at home. A church that is outward-looking will also grow from within; a church that is inward looking will shrivel and become small in ambition. As churches send more missionaries, they will become more missionary-minded at all home as well and foreign missions does not compete with stateside expansion of the church.

I still don't get your main point. I see no positive agenda you are advocating, only a list of excuses why things don't get done.


Yes, we do need to be careful who we send; and local churches do, already, decide that. Even with missionary societies, these orgs heavily weigh their decisions based upon what the local church says about a candidate.

Strategies for a better showing by the local church in missions would be to raise missions awareness and to teach proper principles of missiology from both the orgs and the seminaries so that church, seminiares, and mission orgs, all working in conjunction, can awaken more Christians to our global task. Seminaries with solid missions programs and missions professors are a good start.

Yes, you are right in that there needs to be more local church involvement. But this can happen in conjunction also with involvement and consultation between local churches and the missionary orgs. I am with a mission org, and yet my local church is VERY involved.


If you think that the US is as bad off with a lack of Christian resources, you are dead wrong. Arizona is nowhere near as unreached as Afghanistan, etc. Therefore, while we work hard at home to get a solid church within driving distance of everyone in the US, let us prioritize to a greater degree those much darker areas still in the world.

 

[Grimmson]

Im going to copy and paste my main point.

My main point is in a place like ours where the vast majority of the Church is dead or dying we need to missions here.

The fact is observable with the Unites States of American burning Bibles for the Afghani government that missionaries and solders brought in. Im not trying to make an agrument for a union of Church and State, but it is unlikely that Christians would give the order to burn a Bible.

You seem to think that I think were bad off with Christian resources. The people do not know it exists or they are just not interested, probably do to the fact they are truely not one of us or their immature. I just used Tucson as an example of where you have to travel longer to find an OPC church or one associated with Fire or ARBCA, more then 2 hours.

On the issue of semaries, I have already stated that this should be done by the local church. Our pastors should have studies church history, greek, hebrew, practical theology, and so on. Therefore a church or a band of churches could in fact get together to teach just that and would prevent many of our new pastors for becoming in debt by the tens of thousands of dollars.

"We are not in an either/or situation, missionaries being sent will not siphon off the strength of the churches at home." Yes it can if its a new church starting or just simply an extremely small church. And you cant send what you dont have, that why there has been a massive increase of churches just closing their doors here in the US for good, particularly SBC churches. Before people can be sent they must first be trained and taught. I am prioritizing, by focusing on the local church and local community that way we can go out elsewhere in the world.

 

[Pergamum]

We might be talking past each other. To strengthen missions at the seminary level does not mean that we would not also try to strengthen missions at the local church level. And as missions is strengthened we would not only be sending more people out, but also would be reclaiming our territory in the US.

I do think we are basically in disagreement in that I am grateful for seminaries and missionary societies that aid the local churches and come alongside of them. You look upon them as evils it seems.

 

[Grimmson]

I'm greatful too. I do not see seminaries or mission organiaztions as evil of themselves. Im attending seminary myself to study historical theology. I just think to much has been degulated to various para-church organiztions or secular instutions and the local church needs to get their act together and do what the church is suppose to do and that is to teach, intuit the scarements, visit the sick, pray for one another, take care of the widows of the church, and be active in missions, local and aboard.

 

[tellville]

I have had several young people (18-23) desire to learn more about missionary work and their church-going-presumably-saved parents trying to talk them out of it. In one case, I got a personal email from a college-aged student's mother asking me not to email their "kid" anymore because it was "stirring up" their minds when they should be worried about getting an education so that they could land a good job. I am a dangerous influence I guess.


So, yes, I agree 1,000 Percent that this MUST begin with the local church.

YOU EVIL EVIL MAN!!!!

This is probably on of my biggest pet peeves of all time. I have seen so many people's desire to serve the Lord crushed by parents for reasons that escape me.

 

[AThornquist]

I have had several young people (18-23) desire to learn more about missionary work and their church-going-presumably-saved parents trying to talk them out of it. In one case, I got a personal email from a college-aged student's mother asking me not to email their "kid" anymore because it was "stirring up" their minds when they should be worried about getting an education so that they could land a good job. I am a dangerous influence I guess.


So, yes, I agree 1,000 Percent that this MUST begin with the local church.

Wow. My parents, when I approached them about long-term missions work, were completely supportive. In fact, they are supportive in whatever God-exalting adventure I embark upon. That must be why I am so shocked to read this.

 

[Pergamum]

Yes, pray that I can work my insidous influence on yet more unsuspecting victims... I can always blame God for it all...since it is He that calls...don't shoot the messenger.