heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
I've had an interesting weekend. First of all, by way of background, I've recently gone through a time of spiritual dryness and general backsliding. In particular I had been especially perplexed by the subject of Hell and the Reprobate, which can be found here: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=7712
At any rate, God in His grace has found it good to bring me out of my doldrums, doubt and confusion, and has given me a new awakening.
This weekend I whipped out one of my Spurgeon's Sermons books and read a couple of sermons. A shame to say, they have been collecting dust on my bookshelf for some time now. The blessing I've experienced in the last 48 hours cannot be overstated. What a vessel in God's hands is this Spurgeon! I'm convinced that God has a special design for this man's writings for our time--sermons that comfort the saints and convict sinners. The whole counsel of God preached. It makes one sad to see what has happened to preaching in our day, doesn't it?
Anyway, I definately had a fire in my belly for the doctrines of grace this morning as I left for church-- my generally non-doctrinal, Arminian-by-default church. On my way out, I happened to run into a fellow, a very old fellow, who has taught adult Sunday school and is generally held in high regard in our church. He is Arminian to the core-- he actually calls himself an Arminian and can clearly articulate what it is to be an Arminian. (I make this point because nobody wants to call themselves Arminians today, and most believe in eternal security, so what do you call them??--that's another thread, I guess) This fellow and myself have had little discussions in the past about Calvinism/Arminianism, and have generally been amiable and irenic toward one another. We've joked around that we are like Whitefield and Wesley, that sort of thing. He often comes up to me when I'm talking with a group of people and will say something like "I'm trying to get this guy to see the light--he's one of those Calvinists you know"-- and nobody knows what in the world he's talking about and we just kind of wink at each other.
Well, I had heard that he had been suffering from some severe headaches lately, and I said to him, jokingly, "I will pray for you that God will heal you of your Arminianism, I mean, your headaches", to which he grabbed me affectionately by the arm and said, "you rascal, you don't really believe that stuff about predestination, do you"?
Rick: "Yes, I do, the Bible teaches it"
LD: "So I suppose it doesn't make any difference whether you pray for me to be healed or not. After all, if God is going to heal me, he will heal me, and it doesn't make any difference if you or I pray about it"
Rick: "Well, I believe that God has ordained the end as well as the means. He may will that you be healed, and he may will that you be healed through prayer".
At this point he changed the subject, and started going off about what a monster-god Calvinism proclaims. He was also visibly perturbed at this point, raising his voice, his face a little red. (I tell the honest truth-- I was not provoking him in any way, and I was on the defensive for the rest of our conversation.)
LD: "Your god is the author of sin! He predestined evil and all the rapes and Saddam Hussein, etc., etc, etc." (He went on for a while on this tirade while I stood there looking rather uncomfortable. Meanwhile his elderly wife came over to his side and gave me a look like "what are you doing to my husband"!)
Finally, I said (and very calmly) "Well, wait a minute LD, your Arminianism doesn't have a solution for the accustions you've just made. Didn't God know all along, from before the creation of the world that evil would exist?
LD: "No!"
Rick: "Don't you believe that God knows all things, has always known all things"?
(drum roll please)
LD: "No, I don't believe that stuff!! God doesn't know the freewill choices of free moral agents!"
Yes, that's what he said verbatim.
Fast forward now to this evening. I am with some friends from church at somebody else's house, and my wife brought up the subject of my encounter with LD, so I started to describe our conversation. To my astonishment, one guy said "That's what I believe too. It would take all the fun out of things if God knew what I was going to do, wouldn't it? God has a sense of humor too, I believe."
That smiley has never been more appropriate!
I'm back at home now (sorry this is so long) and I feel like a new zeal has been planted in me to accurately, rationally, scripturally and lovingly proclaim true Christian doctrine. What is going on in our church!!?? Could this be what happens when sound doctrine is negelcted for the sake of not wanting to be controversial? Me thinks so!! I'm wondering, how many other people are there at my church who are guided by what they feel, rather than what the Bible says? I'm really seeing clearly now what the result is of a "non-doctrinal focus".
My pastor is a good guy. He leans Arminian (he's one of those "don't label me" guys) but I know for a fact that he renounces Open Theism. He is caught up in not wanting to bring up controversial doctrines, however. This has always been the Christian Missionary Alliance position, (which is faulty to the core in my opinion). Calvinists and Arminians are supposed to hold hands and sing Kumbaya and talk about non-controversial things. The end result is obviously that poeple fall into gross heresy.
I'm going to have to have a talk with pastor.
[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Rick Larson]
[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Rick Larson]
At any rate, God in His grace has found it good to bring me out of my doldrums, doubt and confusion, and has given me a new awakening.
This weekend I whipped out one of my Spurgeon's Sermons books and read a couple of sermons. A shame to say, they have been collecting dust on my bookshelf for some time now. The blessing I've experienced in the last 48 hours cannot be overstated. What a vessel in God's hands is this Spurgeon! I'm convinced that God has a special design for this man's writings for our time--sermons that comfort the saints and convict sinners. The whole counsel of God preached. It makes one sad to see what has happened to preaching in our day, doesn't it?
Anyway, I definately had a fire in my belly for the doctrines of grace this morning as I left for church-- my generally non-doctrinal, Arminian-by-default church. On my way out, I happened to run into a fellow, a very old fellow, who has taught adult Sunday school and is generally held in high regard in our church. He is Arminian to the core-- he actually calls himself an Arminian and can clearly articulate what it is to be an Arminian. (I make this point because nobody wants to call themselves Arminians today, and most believe in eternal security, so what do you call them??--that's another thread, I guess) This fellow and myself have had little discussions in the past about Calvinism/Arminianism, and have generally been amiable and irenic toward one another. We've joked around that we are like Whitefield and Wesley, that sort of thing. He often comes up to me when I'm talking with a group of people and will say something like "I'm trying to get this guy to see the light--he's one of those Calvinists you know"-- and nobody knows what in the world he's talking about and we just kind of wink at each other.
Well, I had heard that he had been suffering from some severe headaches lately, and I said to him, jokingly, "I will pray for you that God will heal you of your Arminianism, I mean, your headaches", to which he grabbed me affectionately by the arm and said, "you rascal, you don't really believe that stuff about predestination, do you"?
Rick: "Yes, I do, the Bible teaches it"
LD: "So I suppose it doesn't make any difference whether you pray for me to be healed or not. After all, if God is going to heal me, he will heal me, and it doesn't make any difference if you or I pray about it"
Rick: "Well, I believe that God has ordained the end as well as the means. He may will that you be healed, and he may will that you be healed through prayer".
At this point he changed the subject, and started going off about what a monster-god Calvinism proclaims. He was also visibly perturbed at this point, raising his voice, his face a little red. (I tell the honest truth-- I was not provoking him in any way, and I was on the defensive for the rest of our conversation.)
LD: "Your god is the author of sin! He predestined evil and all the rapes and Saddam Hussein, etc., etc, etc." (He went on for a while on this tirade while I stood there looking rather uncomfortable. Meanwhile his elderly wife came over to his side and gave me a look like "what are you doing to my husband"!)
Finally, I said (and very calmly) "Well, wait a minute LD, your Arminianism doesn't have a solution for the accustions you've just made. Didn't God know all along, from before the creation of the world that evil would exist?
LD: "No!"
Rick: "Don't you believe that God knows all things, has always known all things"?
(drum roll please)
LD: "No, I don't believe that stuff!! God doesn't know the freewill choices of free moral agents!"
Yes, that's what he said verbatim.
Fast forward now to this evening. I am with some friends from church at somebody else's house, and my wife brought up the subject of my encounter with LD, so I started to describe our conversation. To my astonishment, one guy said "That's what I believe too. It would take all the fun out of things if God knew what I was going to do, wouldn't it? God has a sense of humor too, I believe."
That smiley has never been more appropriate!
I'm back at home now (sorry this is so long) and I feel like a new zeal has been planted in me to accurately, rationally, scripturally and lovingly proclaim true Christian doctrine. What is going on in our church!!?? Could this be what happens when sound doctrine is negelcted for the sake of not wanting to be controversial? Me thinks so!! I'm wondering, how many other people are there at my church who are guided by what they feel, rather than what the Bible says? I'm really seeing clearly now what the result is of a "non-doctrinal focus".
My pastor is a good guy. He leans Arminian (he's one of those "don't label me" guys) but I know for a fact that he renounces Open Theism. He is caught up in not wanting to bring up controversial doctrines, however. This has always been the Christian Missionary Alliance position, (which is faulty to the core in my opinion). Calvinists and Arminians are supposed to hold hands and sing Kumbaya and talk about non-controversial things. The end result is obviously that poeple fall into gross heresy.
I'm going to have to have a talk with pastor.
[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Rick Larson]
[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Rick Larson]
mad: ). Then they began to speak of their atheist friend and that they really shouldn't try to convert him since he had free will and God wants him to make his own choices.
