Self-love?

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The Shepherd's Grace

Puritan Board Freshman
I have seen a huge divide of scholars stating to love yourself or to not love yourself.

Matthew 22:39
[39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Calvin and Luther seemed to be heavenly against self-love and stated it’s our natural sinful state and we should deny ourselves.

Then you see Jonathan Edwards, John Gill, and Matthew Henry to name a few who state to love yourself.

From my personal research I have come to the conclusion of Calvin and Luther. It seems we naturally love ourselves and that is why we sin. Shouldn’t we deny ourselves and do everything to the glory of God and not self? Yes, this would indirectly love ourselves without a self focus.

Maybe this is a semantics issue but I cannot see how self love is commanded of us or at least commanded directly.

Thoughts?
 
This is a response I had posted on another forum, in response to the quote "Self-Love is King in Unregenerate Hearts - Thomas Goodwin." Maybe it can be helpful here?

I think since contemporarily there is a self-love that is not descriptive of what the Puritan definition is, a clarification would be in order. Now days people consider self-love as taking a moment to relax, washing ones hair and taking a bath, exercising, etc. But the Puritans described it this way:

"There is a natural self-love, and a divine self-love, and a sinful self-love. This sinful self-love is when we make our selves the last end of all our actions, when we so love our selves, as to love no man but our selves, according to the Proverb, Every man for himself, &c. When we pretend God and his glory, and the common good: but intend our selves, and our own private gain and interest; when we serve God upon politique designs; Of this sinful self-love the Apostle speaks, Phil. 2. 21. For all seek their own, and not the things of Jesus Christ. And if we had a window to look into the hearts of most people, we should find their hearts made up all of this Idolatrous self-love. Men deal with God as it is reported of Cnidius a great Architectist, who building a sumptuous Watch-Tower for the King of Egypt (a Tower to discover the rocks to Mariners) such was his craft, that he caused his own name to be engraven'd upon a stone in the wall, in great letters, and over that stone he caused it to be plaistered with lime and mortar, and upon the outside wrote the name of the King of Egypt, as pretending that he should have all the honor. But here was his cunning: he knew that in time the water would consume (as it did) the plaistering, and afterwards his own name and memory should appear and abide. Just so doe most people deal with God and with his religion, and with the publique. If we look without doors, we shall see nothing written but pro bono publico, &c. All their discourse is for the better promoting of Godlilinesse: but if we could look within, we should see written, Pro bono privato, &c. All their designs are for to promote themselves. They monopolize and ingrosse all to themselves, as if made for themselves. Where this sinful self-love dwels, there dwels no love to God, no love to thy brother, no love to Church nor State. This sinful self-love is the Caterpillar that destroyeth Church and Common-wealth. It is from this sinful self-love that the publique affairs drive on so heavily, and that Church-government is not setled, and that our Covenant is so much neglected. Of this sin I cannot now speak: but when God shall offer opportunity, I shall endeavour to uncase it before you. In the mean time, the Lord give you grace to hate it as hell it self."

(Edmund Calamy, 1600-1666 "The Great Danger of Covenant Refusing and Covenant Breaking")
 
This is a response I had posted on another forum, in response to the quote "Self-Love is King in Unregenerate Hearts - Thomas Goodwin." Maybe it can be helpful here?

I think since contemporarily there is a self-love that is not descriptive of what the Puritan definition is, a clarification would be in order. Now days people consider self-love as taking a moment to relax, washing ones hair and taking a bath, exercising, etc. But the Puritans described it this way:

"There is a natural self-love, and a divine self-love, and a sinful self-love. This sinful self-love is when we make our selves the last end of all our actions, when we so love our selves, as to love no man but our selves, according to the Proverb, Every man for himself, &c. When we pretend God and his glory, and the common good: but intend our selves, and our own private gain and interest; when we serve God upon politique designs; Of this sinful self-love the Apostle speaks, Phil. 2. 21. For all seek their own, and not the things of Jesus Christ. And if we had a window to look into the hearts of most people, we should find their hearts made up all of this Idolatrous self-love. Men deal with God as it is reported of Cnidius a great Architectist, who building a sumptuous Watch-Tower for the King of Egypt (a Tower to discover the rocks to Mariners) such was his craft, that he caused his own name to be engraven'd upon a stone in the wall, in great letters, and over that stone he caused it to be plaistered with lime and mortar, and upon the outside wrote the name of the King of Egypt, as pretending that he should have all the honor. But here was his cunning: he knew that in time the water would consume (as it did) the plaistering, and afterwards his own name and memory should appear and abide. Just so doe most people deal with God and with his religion, and with the publique. If we look without doors, we shall see nothing written but pro bono publico, &c. All their discourse is for the better promoting of Godlilinesse: but if we could look within, we should see written, Pro bono privato, &c. All their designs are for to promote themselves. They monopolize and ingrosse all to themselves, as if made for themselves. Where this sinful self-love dwels, there dwels no love to God, no love to thy brother, no love to Church nor State. This sinful self-love is the Caterpillar that destroyeth Church and Common-wealth. It is from this sinful self-love that the publique affairs drive on so heavily, and that Church-government is not setled, and that our Covenant is so much neglected. Of this sin I cannot now speak: but when God shall offer opportunity, I shall endeavour to uncase it before you. In the mean time, the Lord give you grace to hate it as hell it self."

(Edmund Calamy, 1600-1666 "The Great Danger of Covenant Refusing and Covenant Breaking")
Yes, it seems to be somewhat of a semantic issue as people have different definitions for it.

However, if we do everything to the glory of God is there really ever a righteous “self” love if it’s God focused and not self focused? I can care for myself with a God glorifying focus.
 
Yes, it seems to be somewhat of a semantic issue as people have different definitions for it.

However, if we do everything to the glory of God is there really ever a righteous “self” love if it’s God focused and not self focused? I can care for myself with a God glorifying focus.

Perhaps one way to answer your question would be to look at incorrect theology that goes in the extreme to hate the body and the material in such a way as to deny it care, sustenance, basic pleasures of life, etc. Equally as common to overindulge in ones self is the error to deny oneself to the point of declaring "unlcean" what God has made clean. We have seen this error many times in church history from Gnosticism to ascetic lifestyles that denied even fundamentally God-given human needs and experiences such as food, water, or marriage. These ascetic ideals appear pious but destroy the body. It is cloaked in language of sacrificing one's self, or serving the greater needs of the church rather than one's self, but it, too, can be an idol. A false idol of security in our spiritual works over Christ's work in us. These self-hating practices have occurred in the church and in other religions. And lest we think this is relegated to historical movements or eastern religion far from American shores...

To think on recent issues, I believe that hate of one's body, one's self, is part of why we see the sad increase in body dysmorphia and the basis of the current sexual movements that have many in this generation confused about who they are. We have so spiritualized one's personality to be only of the mind, OR we have so over-sexualized bodies to be mere objects, that we have come to hate our bodies and led others to hate theirs as if they are contained in prisons. This is a dangerous self hatred that leads to self mutilation in the varieties of forms we see plaguing young people today.

How can we love others if we cannot love ourselves? How can reveal to others that they are image-bearers of the creator if we do not see his image in ourself?
 
Perhaps one way to answer your question would be to look at incorrect theology that goes in the extreme to hate the body and the material in such a way as to deny it care, sustenance, basic pleasures of life, etc. Equally as common to overindulge in ones self is the error to deny oneself to the point of declaring "unlcean" what God has made clean. We have seen this error many times in church history from Gnosticism to ascetic lifestyles that denied even fundamentally God-given human needs and experiences such as food, water, or marriage. These ascetic ideals appear pious but destroy the body. It is cloaked in language of sacrificing one's self, or serving the greater needs of the church rather than one's self, but it, too, can be an idol. A false idol of security in our spiritual works over Christ's work in us. These self-hating practices have occurred in the church and in other religions. And lest we think this is relegated to historical movements or eastern religion far from American shores...

To think on recent issues, I believe that hate of one's body, one's self, is part of why we see the sad increase in body dysmorphia and the basis of the current sexual movements that have many in this generation confused about who they are. We have so spiritualized one's personality to be only of the mind, OR we have so over-sexualized bodies to be mere objects, that we have come to hate our bodies and led others to hate theirs as if they are contained in prisons. This is a dangerous self hatred that leads to self mutilation in the varieties of forms we see plaguing young people today.

How can we love others if we cannot love ourselves? How can reveal to others that they are image-bearers of the creator if we do not see his image in ourself?
I would state self hate is self love. They are opposites of the same coin. One who hates himself really is loving himself because he is always thinking of himself over others.



Self denial is not self hate or self love. It is different in that you do not focus on self at all, directly that is. Self denial leads to God being our focus and doing everything for His glory. Doing this leads us to indirectly love ourselves without a “self” focus. Doing things according to Gods glory means we would not self mutilate or mistreat ourselves in any way as that would not be according to Gods word.



This is how I see it anyway.
 
Hello, was fiddling around with Logos, and found a way to export the search results for "self-love" from the Puritan Index I have within it. All these results can be found on EEBO-TCP for free. This list includes the title, and most likely the author (if the author was in the title ) but you should be able to simply copy and paste the title into Google and it will come up with the TCP result. This is if you wanted to do an in-depth study on the Puritan theology of self-love. --- 2,610 results, in 1,699 articles/works, in 157 resources/volumes. Tried to upload, but was too big, so below is provided the link in Drive.

 
I would state self hate is self love. They are opposites of the same coin. One who hates himself really is loving himself because he is always thinking of himself over others.



Self denial is not self hate or self love. It is different in that you do not focus on self at all, directly that is. Self denial leads to God being our focus and doing everything for His glory. Doing this leads us to indirectly love ourselves without a “self” focus. Doing things according to Gods glory means we would not self mutilate or mistreat ourselves in any way as that would not be according to Gods word.



This is how I see it anyway.

While certainly some will be in that category, many truly do revile their bodies and are ashamed of their bodies. It is not "about them" when they have learned to be truly ashamed of and disgusted by their own flesh. I have worked closely with those who have struggled with suicide, struggled with harmful ideations, struggled with the after-effects of sexual abuse and trauma, etc. They truly hate their bodies and it is a long road to recovering a right love for how God made them rather than how sin marred them. Even in less extreme situations, such as ascetic lifestyles--Martin Luther truly sought to be right with God and in his former way of life believed and was taught the ways to such a relationship included self-flagellation. A woman committed by conscience to the nunnery is indeed doing so out of self-sacrifice for she knows that it will be a denial of the world and her personal desires. That's not to say that such conclusions are "correct" or not a deception or twisting of the faith insomuch as they make the practice about works-based salvation but that these more often than not are indeed sincerely held internal beliefs, even instructed methods, of how one shows their self-sacrifice. Yes, the "flipsides" of the coin are interlinked but they are not conflated.

I agree that self-love and self-hate are not self-denial, but the way to get to an understanding of true self-denial will be completely different courses for the person in the self-hatred world. Thus, my delineation. The person in the self-hate state corrupted in such a way to view their own bodies or self as disgusting, shameful, hated, has a much different journey to understanding who they are in Christ than the puffed-up indulger. Even just practically speaking (and the Puritans were quite practical), the approach in ministering to their needs is very different. These individuals really do need to learn the goodness of God's creation of them and really do need to learn to love God's providence, sovereignty, and natural revelation of himself in their life and the life around them. Truly, if you do not love life, you cannot protect it. Those in this self-hatred really do need to learn to love themselves before they can even comprehend how to love others. It is often through Christ's love of them that this becomes possible. You can't love if you don't even know what love is. Many in the self-hatred camp do not know love. I like to agree with you in abstract, but I have seen and known too much to be able to commit the ideal to a reality that is much messier.
 
While certainly some will be in that category, many truly do revile their bodies and are ashamed of their bodies. It is not "about them" when they have learned to be truly ashamed of and disgusted by their own flesh. I have worked closely with those who have struggled with suicide, struggled with harmful ideations, struggled with the after-effects of sexual abuse and trauma, etc. They truly hate their bodies and it is a long road to recovering a right love for how God made them rather than how sin marred them. Even in less extreme situations, such as ascetic lifestyles--Martin Luther truly sought to be right with God and in his former way of life believed and was taught the ways to such a relationship included self-flagellation. A woman committed by conscience to the nunnery is indeed doing so out of self-sacrifice for she knows that it will be a denial of the world and her personal desires. That's not to say that such conclusions are "correct" or not a deception or twisting of the faith insomuch as they make the practice about works-based salvation but that these more often than not are indeed sincerely held internal beliefs, even instructed methods, of how one shows their self-sacrifice. Yes, the "flipsides" of the coin are interlinked but they are not conflated.

I agree that self-love and self-hate are not self-denial, but the way to get to an understanding of true self-denial will be completely different courses for the person in the self-hatred world. Thus, my delineation. The person in the self-hate state corrupted in such a way to view their own bodies or self as disgusting, shameful, hated, has a much different journey to understanding who they are in Christ than the puffed-up indulger. Even just practically speaking (and the Puritans were quite practical), the approach in ministering to their needs is very different. These individuals really do need to learn the goodness of God's creation of them and really do need to learn to love God's providence, sovereignty, and natural revelation of himself in their life and the life around them. Truly, if you do not love life, you cannot protect it. Those in this self-hatred really do need to learn to love themselves before they can even comprehend how to love others. It is often through Christ's love of them that this becomes possible. You can't love if you don't even know what love is. Many in the self-hatred camp do not know love. I like to agree with you in abstract, but I have seen and known too much to be able to commit the ideal to a reality that is much messier.
Interesting point of view.I appreciate your response.

I used to hate myself to the point where I was strung out on drugs, slowly killing myself. Self-denial is what cured that for me and focusing on myself is what got me to that point I was in. It’s when I stopped focusing on myself and focused on God and loving others according to what God's word says is love, that changed everything for me.

Where in the Bible is it commanded for us to learn to love ourselves before loving others?
 
Interesting point of view.I appreciate your response.

I used to hate myself to the point where I was strung out on drugs, slowly killing myself. Self-denial is what cured that for me and focusing on myself is what got me to that point I was in. It’s when I stopped focusing on myself and focused on God and loving others according to what God's word says is love, that changed everything for me.

Where in the Bible is it commanded for us to learn to love ourselves before loving others?
Doesn't the sixth commandment include self preservation?
No one is saying be indulgent. But, how can one be faithful if they despise themselves as a creation of God? Is that not breaking the commandment and making your body an enemy?
 
I have found to categorize self-esteem. That is, that I do not hate my soul, but I hate my flesh. This is because if what we are were to be reflected in a mirror, we would look worse than the leper covered with scabs with rotten skin hanging from our exposed flesh. Every good thing that I experience, every good thought or act is a result of God in me, whether the general acts of virtue possessed by the Imago Dei, or the super-natural acts of virtue that stem from the indwelling of the Spirit. This is why I void all personal self-esteem, and beautify the image of Christ as not presently obtained, but if so, only in part; as the light at the end of the tunnel that helps me bear the infection of my desecrated nature, and that pushes me in the hope of what I will become. I look at myself as being completely useless for any good purposes apart from God. For instance, it has been revealed, that even with being blessed with a virtuous thought, it immediately becomes a rancid scheme by the degree of my depraved heart. Where is the value in such a heart? My existence is a curse upon creation; who waits patiently for our redemption and glorification so that it will not be subject to futility. My entire esteem is gleaned from a future hope of being conformed into the image of Jesus; who observing his righteousness, simultaneously magnifies my wretchedness and his beauty. I disdain everything about "me" because everything about me is another stripe on my saviors back. I don't look in the mirror and behold something worth beholding; as if beauty were my reflection. I behold Christ, and only desire to be like him no matter what I become.
Some say God doesn't make junk...yet, sin has made me so.

O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
 
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Matthew 22:39
[39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

I always thought that in this place, Jesus was only stating what the case was without commenting on whether it was a good, bad, or neutral thing.

The Apostle teaches that self-love is embedded in the heart of every man and by implication, though fallen,[*] a facet of our being created in the image of God. For the adorable Trinity and each Person of it does love one another even as they do love themselves.
[*] A heroin addict is acting out of self-love when putting a needle in his veins.

Ephesians 5:25-32 [paragraph breaks are mine]​
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the Church because we are members of his body.
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
 
Doesn't the sixth commandment include self preservation?
No one is saying be indulgent. But, how can one be faithful if they despise themselves as a creation of God? Is that not breaking the commandment and making your body an enemy?

Indeed, I like the WLC on this:
Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.

Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.

In a more hedonistic society, that also reeks of gnosticism that the body doesn't matter as much as the "inner" person, we don't often consider the injunctions of preserving life of ones' self as being a part of what it means to 'do not kill' if we consider the fuller applications.
Where in the Bible is it commanded for us to learn to love ourselves before loving others?

I am not saying that in the trite sense it is often used in our society nor am I implying that is a command. I am merely pointing out that there are sins in the opposite direction of hedonistic self love, and that self hatred is a real malady that strikes in the heart of many, especially in our modern era that divorces one's personhood from the body. Therefore, for some the path to reconciliation requires learning to love God's creation and God's view of life. It is not "self-love" in the worldly sense, but to love the way God loves. It is not a command because it is not the case that all struggle with this. Rather, it is applying principles we see in the Scriptures that promote life, the sanctity of it, including the sanctity of one's own body.
 
Doesn't the sixth commandment include self preservation?
No one is saying be indulgent. But, how can one be faithful if they despise themselves as a creation of God? Is that not breaking the commandment and making your body an enemy?
I’m against despising yourself and loving yourself. Both are a self focus. I believe there is a way we love ourselves but more directly. When we do things with a God focus and not a self focus we care for ourselves. This would be self denial. Neither hating nor loving yourself as you don’t focus on yourself.
 
Indeed, I like the WLC on this:


In a more hedonistic society, that also reeks of gnosticism that the body doesn't matter as much as the "inner" person, we don't often consider the injunctions of preserving life of ones' self as being a part of what it means to 'do not kill' if we consider the fuller applications.


I am not saying that in the trite sense it is often used in our society nor am I implying that is a command. I am merely pointing out that there are sins in the opposite direction of hedonistic self love, and that self hatred is a real malady that strikes in the heart of many, especially in our modern era that divorces one's personhood from the body. Therefore, for some the path to reconciliation requires learning to love God's creation and God's view of life. It is not "self-love" in the worldly sense, but to love the way God loves. It is not a command because it is not the case that all struggle with this. Rather, it is applying principles we see in the Scriptures that promote life, the sanctity of it, including the sanctity of one's own body.
I feel we may be having a semantic issue here. I’m speaking of self love that focuses on yourself. Hence the name “self” love.

Question for you, do you think we can indirectly love ourselves correctly when we have a direct God focus and not a direct self focus?

In my opinion, if we focus directly on God by denying ourselves (not hating ourselves) we indirectly love ourselves without the self centered focus.
 
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I’m against despising yourself and loving yourself. Both are a self focus. I believe there is a way we love ourselves but more directly. When we do things with a God focus and not a self focus we care for ourselves. This would be self denial. Neither hating nor loving yourself as you don’t focus on yourself.

I feel we may be having a semantic issue here. I’m speaking of self love that focuses on yourself. Hence the name “self” love.

Question for you, do you think we can indirectly love ourselves correctly when we have a direct God focus and not a direct self focus?

In my opinion, if we focus directly on God by denying ourselves (not hating ourselves) we indirectly love ourselves without the self centered focus.
I think it is partly semantic. But, I think we are talking past each other. You're addressing hedonism while Jo and I are speaking of thoughts that can and do lead to self harm, i.e body image issues.

I do agree that self forgetfulness (I hesitate to say hatred, though I do quite hate the 'flesh' but not my soul or body) is quite helpful and a remedy most of the time for both sides.
 
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