"Secular Moments"

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kvanlaan

Puritan Board Doctor
The thread on "Firebrand Preaching mp3s" in the computer section made me think about a quote in a Paul Washer sermon. He mentioned in a sermon that we as believers should not have "secular moments", not ever.

Especially when I look at the history of the Puritans, taking their lives and writings as examples of how they lived and believed, and the fact that we at the PB think that the Puritans were definitely on the right track, if not totally cool, how is it that we take so much time out of our lives in secular pursuits? We scoff at the idea of a "carnal" Christian, but how much better are we?

I'm not talking about taking five minutes to see the sports highlights of the day on the news (though that definitely qualifies) or listening to secular music on the way home (though that also qualifies) from work. I'm talking about a collection of CDs worth hundreds of dollars that takes hours out of our week. Or a TV that takes hours out of every day. Not to mention the time that was spent earning the money to purchase them. How will we answer before His throne for those wasted hours/days/years? If we are to glory in serving Him, do we really need 'rest' from this service?

I'm not talking about personal external piety. I'm talking about us, as Soli Deo Gloria standard-bearers, spending hours a day, months a year, culminating into years of our lives in worldly or self-gratifying pursuits.

I just want to know, how do we rationalize this in our lives? Is it just a shameful reality? Do we try to prop it up with Scripture? What?
 
I think that in Christian circles there can be a huge differentiation between things of the "Christian" world and things of the "secular" world; a differentiation I don't see in scripture. All things are given to us for our use and enjoyment. I can enjoy watching the television of an evening, because it is God's good gift.

Now, I'm not advocating slobbing around and becoming a couch potato, but I am saying that we are playing with fire if we separate things of this world from the things of God.

Jesus slept in the boat ;)
 
Kevin,

I hope I am not reading you wrongly, but I think there are actually two seperate questions in your OP.

1) To what extent can believers partake of the 'things of the world' without being spotted by the world.

2) To what extent can believers engage in activities that God allows or has not condemned but which are not directly spiritual.

I think sometimes (and I am not saying you do it) discussions of this nature get a little confused between the two and that hinders the clarity of discussion. For instance, if being spotted by the world was not under consideration, there would be (in my opinion) no difference between taking an hour to watch TV and taking an hour to walk in the park. Yet most christians would consider the two activities of a different 'type' in that there are many christians who would shun the former but have no problem at all with the latter.

Just thought that might help to focus the discussion a bit. Of course, I could be wrong...
 
Yes, Christ slept in the boat. He did not 'chill' with a beer in front of the TV. He was refreshing His human nature and/or demonstrating the insignificance of the storm's danger to Him, label it as you will. He was not 'kicking back'.

Please, please understand that in starting this thread, I am one of the worst offenders and thus am seeking a Scripturally sound way to handle this and lay out a proper path. But while I will curl up in bed with a simple flu, Calvin dictated sermons and doctrine in spite of severe and unrelenting pain. He was carried in to preach and sat as he was unable to walk or stand. Milton dictated his best work to his daughters after his sight was taken and soon before he died. I am sure there are examples ad infinitum among reformers and Puritans alone but my point is that these men understood the sense of urgency and the responsibility which they undertook living each moment for God.

Adam, you once posted a quote by Spurgeon that I have read at least a dozen times since. Included in there is:

I believe that one reason why the Church of God at this present moment has so little influence over the world is because the world has so much influence over the Church. Nowadays, we hear Nonconformists pleading that they may do this, and they may do that,—things which their Puritan forefathers would rather have died at the stake than have tolerated. They plead that they may live like worldlings, and my sad answer to them, when they crave for this liberty, is, "Do it if you dare. It may not do you much hurt, for you are so bad already. Your cravings show how rotten your hearts are. If you have a hungering after such dog's meat, go, dogs, and eat the garbage! Worldly amusements are fit food for mere pretenders and hypocrites. If you were God's children, you would loathe the very thought of the world's evil joys, and your question would not be, 'How far may we be like the world?' but your one cry would be, 'How far can we get away from the world? How much can we come out from it?' Your temptation would be rather to become sternly severe, and ultra-Puritanical in your separation from sin, in such a time as this, than to ask, 'How can I make myself like other men, and act as they do?"'

And no, I am in no way suggesting that those who watch TV are chewing on "dog's meat". But why do we seek after the things of the world? Even on the most innocent of TV shows or movies we will be assaulted by inappropriate behaviour, inappropriate dress, and a variety of other things which are not edifying to anyone, let alone the Lord our God.

Mark, I think this issue that I have with this is not so much "how much can I partake of before I will be spotted by it" but instead, "if I live to serve Him, what desire can I possibly have for it?"

When we over-work, where does our refreshment lie? In Him? Or in the bear-baiting of our day? I myself engage in mindless pursuits in order to refresh but why is it that when my tank is empty, I am not refilling with 93 octane, but instead am pouring in the offal of the world and the product of a Godless industry.

We are ready to condemn Arminians at the drop of a hat and engage in virtual hand to hand combat with each other over Exclusive Psalmody or Baptism, but are glad to roll in the filth of the world during most of our resting moments. I just don't understand the disconnect there. Again, this is me looking into the mirror, there is no pointing of fingers at anyone here.

If I tell you that I listen to Boston in my time off, or I tell you that I listen to Iron Maiden instead, why does the attitude of the listener change? Both are Godless, both are apart from His will for our lives, and both represent the same world, but because one is more conspicuously wicked, we somehow make a distinction between the two.

What is it that makes this garbage so palatable to us and why do we continue to consume it?
 
Because I listen to Van Halen, watch Quantum Leap reruns and love Indiana Jones movies to death as well as Edgar Alan Poe literature I don't feel these things are entirely bankrupt.

They display human creatvity and reflect the glory of God whether they mean to or not by the fact intelligent beings were given such creativity to create music and poetry and art and adventurous story telling.

We are permitted to enjoy the pagan's culture that is not scraping the bottom of human depravity, we are afterall human and have inate desires and instincts that manifest themselves in pagans and believers alike, not just the sin nature but the grace of humanity for the sun rises and sets over us both.

I can enjoy the world's sports and escapism and I'll leave it to the pagan to be absorbed and ruled by them, there is a difference and with our freedom in Christ we can enjoy the likes of Steven Spielberg, Arthur Conan Doyle and Eric Clapton guilt free even though they are not believers themselves.
 
I love Iron Maiden ;)

Let me also say, I am a firm proponent of redeeming the time. Also, as I chill in front of the TV with my beer and subway sandwich, let me say that I do believe we need to be on guard for the things of this world. Tonight I am going to watch an episode of a show my wife and I watch, and then head to bed to read 1 Corinthians and Calvin.

Now, one of these actions is more edifying for myself, but both actions can be just as equally glorifying to God. My joy is in Christ, my enjoyment of His creation is one of the ways I show my joy.
 
Because I listen to Van Halen, watch Quantum Leap reruns and love Indiana Jones movies to death as well as Edgar Alan Poe literature I don't feel these things are entirely bankrupt.

They display human creatvity and reflect the glory of God whether they mean to or not by the fact intelligent beings were given such creativity to create music and poetry and art and adventurous story telling.

We are permitted to enjoy the pagan's culture that is not scraping the bottom of human depravity, we are afterall human and have inate desires and instincts that manifest themselves in pagans and believers alike, not just the sin nature but the grace of humanity for the sun rises and sets over us both.

I can enjoy the world's sports and escapism and I'll leave it to the pagan to be absorbed and ruled by them, there is a difference and with our freedom in Christ we can enjoy the likes of Steven Spielberg, Arthur Conan Doyle and Eric Clapton guilt free even though they are not believers themselves.

:amen:
 
I think that more important than the questions is the motivation for the questions. This is where you will find the solution to the tension that these questions cause.

Do you ask because you wonder about your own election?
Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path?
Do you think you are missing something, a blessing or the answer to a mystery"
Do you feel unworthy of the blessings of salvation?

These are all good motivations and questions we ought to ask ourselves regularly.

The problem is that in trying to answer these question our hearts, our nature, will try to codify or build of list of things we must do in order feel assured that we are truly spiritual. How many of the commandments must we follow in order that God will be pleased with our performance?

The solution is NOT to look to ourselves for God pleasing life. Self-evaluation is good and necessary not because we can track our betterment, but because it drives us back to Christ and His gospel.

Christ has lived the God pleasing life. When we find ourselves lacking, it is one, a result of the Spirit's work in us in sanctification, and two, a motivator to look to Christ. My life, my true life, my God pleasing life is hidden in Christ.

Do you watch too much TV? Praise God that you will ask the question. If you have to ask then the Spirit is shining his light on an area of your life that may need some re-evaluation. But don't try and hold another to what the Spirit has convicted you of.

Most importantly, whatever change you decide to make in your behavior, do it solely out of honor to the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Spirit. In this way, whatever you do proceeds from faith. (That which does not proceed from faith, is sin.) Be motivated by gratitude for the finished work of Christ and never that you might, in your flesh, be more acceptable to God.

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Romans 14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
 
OK, let's go through the motivation first:

Do you ask because you wonder about your own election?
Nope, I am a hard-boiled 'frozen chosen' and that is not at issue. :)

Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path? Not so much. Maybe with regards to some fairly insignificant doctrinal issues (being of the Dutch tradition instead of the English), and perhaps when it comes to the "Saddleback Syndrome" type of church (I'm steadfastly against it and make no bones about it.)

Do you think you are missing something, a blessing or the answer to a 'mystery'?
Don't think so. Salvation is a pretty big blessing as far as blessings go, and I'm not looking for anything beyond that. I am not going to try and decipher the thought processes of the Creator, just trying to walk as I should.

Do you feel unworthy of the blessings of salvation?
Unworthy? Not sure about that word. I know I am undeserving, but that's all of us. I am thankful to the point of incredulity, but I don't mope about how there's no possibility that God could redeem such as me. He's done it and I'm not about to argue.

I guess it is more the "living sacrifice" idea as well as the "guilt, grace, gratitude" concept that drives me to this. No, God doesn't need anything I can possibly conjure up or do. I'm clear on that. But when I say I am striving to live for Him and keep His commandments and yet spend so much time immersed in the diversions of the world, I feel like I'm partaking of a little too much 'cheap grace'. In my family, I need only look to my maternal grandfather to see a man who lived quite like a Puritan, and in two generations, it has come to this? Thus I feel myself running back to that path, as self-examination DOES spotlight the need for the gospel and His love and blood to remain always in the forefront BUT at the same time, I want to make an honest statement that I strive to live for Him and live in His service. I want to be killing indwelling sin and I don't feel that I can do that when I am surrounded by and partake of the pleasures of the world.

As for holding others to what the Spirit has convicted me of, that is not my intent. But surely we all battle with this in some form, do we not? We do and will struggle with sin, every one of us, every day, until we pass into glory. I am asking why it is that we (or maybe it's just me) find certain conspicuous sin so appealing when we should hate it and why I am not more driven to make every moment count.

Also, with regards to the comments about Iron Maiden, I can say, with a huge dose of experience, that there is no possible way to listen to them in a way that could edify the Lord. I won't hold anyone else to convictions that the Spirit holds me to but there's also a point at which a brother must speak up.

No group of men, even jokingly, can sing...

I feel drawn towards the evil chanting hordes
They seem to mesmerise me ... can't avoid their eyes
666 the number of the beast
666 the one for you and me

I'm coming back I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take it's course

...without some serious issues being present in their souls. It has been years since I have listened to that song and I can recite it word for word. It has seared into my mind like little else could - I have no problem believing that it is verdomde and van de devil. (Hence I hope the wink was an earnest one!)
 
Chris, not sure about which one - I will sift through and try to let you know but it may be a while, I've got a LOT of his stuff too. It's like sermon heroin...
 
Give me Phil.4:8 any time - I would have thought that the world's cisterns hold not attraction for the Christian. Can we enjoy supporting with our time and money that which is blatantly opposed to our LORD?
 
Kevin, I struggle with the same convictions you do. I will have these flashes of how a certain pasttime is just vanity or worldliness or pointless pleasure seeking. I cannot tell though if they are the Holy Spirit convicting me or if it is my flesh trying to be severe and work for salvation instead of trusting Christ.

I understand that the salvation is of the Lord and cannot be earned but there are two sides in scripture. Scripture also says that Faith without works is dead. And I understand that verse in the reformed sense and not the Catholic one. That it means a true faith will bear the fruit of godliness. This is even more of a conundrum for me since the puritans really did live the way these convictions point me so I have a historical witness that others felt this way and acted on it.

Almost no one lives like the puritans now. Almost no one strives for this type of holiness anymore and it is often branded as legalism instead of a biblical standard that we should try to emulate. We are all sinners and will defend our pet pasttimes with the cry of Christian Liberty especially among reformed Christians. Granted the thrills of today are even more fun than ever before. My husband and I are gamers and the technology of games is just breathtaking now. Have you seen the newest Halo3 trailer!!

The other issue is how much are we supposed to strive in our own strength to live up to this standard. Are we to patiently wait for God's sanctifying hand? We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Have we lost that fear?

These threads also die very quicks deaths. No one wants to know the answer. Then we would have to do something about it. Just watch this one will be a deserted wasteland soon.

tumbleweed.gif
 
Thanks for posting that quote again Kevin! My short reply was in jest trying to laugh at some of our debates we have here as you eluded to when you referenced EP and baptism, etc.

Do you want to know what I think the problem is? This may offend some here, but I think the problem is the Church body. It's been my experience (for the most part) that even when a local body has one, two, or maybe even three members who have this conviction they are seen as the "weirdo's" of the flock.

I waste as much or more time than anyone, but during the phases of my walk where I have been on fire and sought to separate myself further and further from the world I've found it to be too lonely of a place to be! Now that may sound like a poor excuse, but I’m sorry, if I can find no one to walk with me down such a difficult path, the chances of remaining in it are slim.

I pray to God often that I could find a group of believers who would meet daily! I would so much prefer that to watching TV or going to the movies. Sadly, I can never, ever find this group! Everyone is too busy. The issue with the Presbyterian Church that I’ve run into is that they don’t want to call an “official” service too often because this causes members to feel “bound” to attend. My old evangelical church was open nearly every day with bible studies, family gatherings, etc. So often I would go there to fellowship, study the word, and pray together rather than going out on the town of turning on a TV show. On the few days that the church was not open, members’ homes were in order to meet over coffee and an open bible. I miss that very, very badly. I work a job where Church members would have to come to me. I work in a LARGE home with plenty of space and I bet some of our kids might even get involved but I couldn’t get anyone interested. In fact, the few studies we had were far from weekly and were often rescheduled. When we had them there might be four or five people that attended!

I suppose all of this sounds like I am blaming others for me not walking as I desire to walk, but I thought that was what a Church was for? I mean didn’t Christ even have a few that he could normally rely on? I love my brothers and sisters but when I press hard to press on harder I feel rather alone in that call/request. Often I just give up and hope to do what I can.
 
These threads also die very quicks deaths. No one wants to know the answer. Then we would have to do something about it. Just watch this one will be a deserted wasteland soon.

You seemed to have called that Traci!
 
No kidding, Traci called it right on. I know it's not a popular topic...

Adam, it is tough to find a support group for this sort of thing, especially living in the world we do. It's bad enough living in China, where the marketing machine is much less practised than in the US. In the US, you pile a bunch of cookies in front of a child, then say "touch them, smell them, stare at them, even lick them but don't you DARE take a bite."

The comment about needing a pal to walk the path with is dead on. And it usually has to be someone of the same sex. In this one instance, a spouse doesn't usually fit the bill. Don't get me wrong - my wife is incredibly supportive, loving, respects me and looks to me as the head of the family (I think I lead a very charmed life!) BUT she's not a guy. And that is what it takes when it comes to accountability in this sort of situation.

As for the role of the church, it is also essential. I have been listening to sermonaudio.com for several months now to help in my search for a home church upon our return. It is a wonderful tool in the search. If you are going to Joel Osteen's big warm fuzzy and are convicted to live a Puritan's life, you'd likely have charges of legalism leveled at you first, then be mocked for worrying about things that God doesn't care a whit about. How long will you be able to walk that road if you stay and have no one to walk with you? Not long...
 
I think that more important than the questions is the motivation for the questions. This is where you will find the solution to the tension that these questions cause.

Do you ask because you wonder about your own election?
Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path?
Do you think you are missing something, a blessing or the answer to a mystery"
Do you feel unworthy of the blessings of salvation?

These are all good motivations and questions we ought to ask ourselves regularly.

The problem is that in trying to answer these question our hearts, our nature, will try to codify or build of list of things we must do in order feel assured that we are truly spiritual. How many of the commandments must we follow in order that God will be pleased with our performance?

The solution is NOT to look to ourselves for God pleasing life. Self-evaluation is good and necessary not because we can track our betterment, but because it drives us back to Christ and His gospel.

Christ has lived the God pleasing life. When we find ourselves lacking, it is one, a result of the Spirit's work in us in sanctification, and two, a motivator to look to Christ. My life, my true life, my God pleasing life is hidden in Christ.

Do you watch too much TV? Praise God that you will ask the question. If you have to ask then the Spirit is shining his light on an area of your life that may need some re-evaluation. But don't try and hold another to what the Spirit has convicted you of.

Most importantly, whatever change you decide to make in your behavior, do it solely out of honor to the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Spirit. In this way, whatever you do proceeds from faith. (That which does not proceed from faith, is sin.) Be motivated by gratitude for the finished work of Christ and never that you might, in your flesh, be more acceptable to God.

Brother Bob - :amen:

I believe the admonition can go both ways. On the one hand we should not seek to avoid things believing they may be the secret to happiness or godliness. Monasticism came out of that mindset. On the other hand we should not indulge in everything that God created because we have liberty. Antinomianism is the logical conclusion of that thinking.

My brother may stumble with going to the movies, whereas I have no such problem. I may be tempted in the presence of alcohol, but my brother may drink responsibly. Bob quoted Paul's words to the Romans and they bear repeating, "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

Firebrand preaching will never replace the time we spend in the scriptures. Even if a preacher is correct, a believer who is not convinced by scripture will be driven back and forth by every convincing sermon they hear. We must search the scriptures diligently. As we do so, we will find Christ on every page. As we find Christ, the scriptures will be like a cool breeze, refreshing our soul.

In our post-modern world, even our desire for peace and godliness becomes subjective. We have forgotten, and for some of us have never experienced, the simplicity of Christ. Our Lord said:

Matthew 11:28-30 28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. 30 "For My yoke is easy, and My load is light."

Brother Bob's post caused my mind to dwell on these things. Shall we not take on our Lord's yoke and learn from Him? For it is in Christ that we shall find rest from our weariness.
 
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Peter has much to say on this topic in his very rich intro to his first letter.

1 Peter 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

First off, and this is a key you must remember as you are working through any doctrine, always begin with the Divine nature of God. All doctrines, from election to sanctification must be understood to be consistent with God's nature and decrees. For example, God's love must be set against the truth of God's immutability, holiness, mercy, omniscience, etc. We don't start with our experience, we begin with God's being.

Peter begins a discussion of our sanctification, our transformation and conformity to his revealed will, by making it clear that our transformation is powered by God. Knowledge of God's being is the engine that moves the creature Godward. The unsaved runs from God in fear but the child of God is enamored and runs into the arms of the Father as the Father draws him.

Peter then reminds us to take inventory of God's promises. "He will not leave us. He who began a GOOD work in us will see it through. Those whom the Father gives me I will in no ways cast out." Too many more wondrous promises to list here, but they give us the confidence to approach the Father and dare ask for grace in our walk. Knowing that in Him there is now NO condemnation and that the work of the Cross has been effectually applied Peter can say we have "escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.'

In light of who God is and the finished redemptive work of Christ Peter now tells us we may look to supplementing what has been done (by faith) with our own RESPONSE of pursuing virtue. The important point here, of course, is that we are RESPONDING to what has been accomplished, NOT trying to accomplish a missing work.

Peter tells us that we never arrive at perfection (completion), not in this life anyway. The great evidence of virtuous living is not a finished product but a life characterized by transformation.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And finally notice that the goal here is not sinless perfection but that your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is increased. This completes the cycle, and it is a cycle.

1. We dwell and abide in the knowledge of God
2. This knowledge transforms our thoughts, our minds are renewed.
3. The Spirit reveals sins that have long indwelt us.
3. Our new way of thinking results in renewed principles and convictions.
4. Our convictions, driven by the Word change our behavior - we put off the old ways, we put on the new.
5. Good fruit is produced and our godliness (God is becoming more of our emotional focus) leads us to study the Word and pray.
6. In prayer and study we dwell and abide in the knowledge of God.

We will not be rid of all of our old sinful ways after one cycle. In fact we won't be rid of them after a thousand cycles. As our knowledge of the Holy One increases, so will our knowledge and grief over sin. ("Woe is me, I am undone.") This is what characterized the Puritans. Read The Valley of Vision, you will see.

Even when we stand before God in Glory we will not own a true satisfaction with our own efforts. We will still be confessing, it was all of Christ and nothing of me, blessed be his name.
 
Bob

Any thoughts on my "group" issues/concerns? I sometimes worry that some feel that all of this has to be completely private and personal.
 
Bob

Any thoughts on my "group" issues/concerns? I sometimes worry that some feel that all of this has to be completely private and personal.

Are you referring to the second of your posts in this thread Adam? I'd have to think on it some more but my gut reaction is you shouldn't blame the church. The church is always the easy target. Finding problems with a church is like shooting fish in a barrel.

It's really a matter of probabilities -

Chances of making changes in your life, pretty good.
Chances of finding the perfect church, ain't gonna happen, EVER!

I know of three people I have spoken to in recent weeks who aren't coming to church. They all are blaming some incident in church for it. However, it's pretty obvious that they are accommodating their own laziness.

I'm not saying that you're doing that Adam, in no way, but without knowing more about your church situation I would recommend not looking to the church to blame for hindering our sanctification. INHO :handshake:
 
Bill, the quote from the sermon is merely what lead me to delve further into scripture - I have spent some quality time with James, John, Matthew Henry, and a few others over the last while or so (but didn't get as much done at work as I'd hoped!) The charge that my reading during this time was then biased may have some merit, but I don't feel that my behaviour is at issue with the verse you quoted.

Also, tell me this (and tell me if I am misunderstanding you): Why is it that we do not charge the Puritans with legalism, that we do not make mention of how they were sailing towards monasticism? We are dealing with a number of similar issues that they were: a corrupt governing body, false teachings in the church, false prophets, you name it. Did the Puritan martyrs miss the boat and die for nothing? Their lives were incredibly offensive to the world, and why? The world saw Christ in them, and hated them for it. But no, they are not my model, Christ is. I am not seeking to walk as other men in the thinking that they are the measure of the Christian life. I think that what Bob said was dead on - I seek this path to "honor the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit." It is gratitude (guilt, grace, gratitude - that's the logic!) All the works of my hands are nothing before him - to offer them in an effort to be more presentable is only to sin against Him.

I still think liberty falls down somewhere here as our actions conflict with scripture - and they always will as we consume the goods of a godless world.
"My brother may stumble with going to the movies, whereas I have no such problem" - and there may be the odd movie that would pass the test. But I don't know that I've seen even a Disney movie in the last decade that has passed "honor your father and mother", never mind several other commandments. What's top of the box office now? "300"? How far does our liberty extend? While I may not stumble going to the movies, can I really say it is beneficial?

Yes, there is danger in constructing a list of what we must do but that is not scriptural. And this behaviour is born of scripture and gratitude, nothing else (says the sinful man before you...)

If I have misread you, please forgive me - and I sincerely do not mean to offend with my comments.

PS - Trevor, it will take another line - or maybe more - so I will probably have to shorten the names up, lest I run afoul of the USMC in my signature length!
 
Brother Kevin, very much appreciate you starting this thread, and I wholeheartedly must agree with you!

We are so easily, through our spiritual laziness, drawn away in the old man by the carnal pleasures. That old man has to be crucified.

Also, believe Paul had something to say about the wordly influences in his letter to the Romans:

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

No, I am not here condemning the people that watch the wicked movies and TV shows, and listen to the music of the wicked. What I am saying here, as I believe Paul is saying, may we partake of those wicked things, and relax by watching sin?

Or should we be separate from the world. In the world, but not of the world?
 
So...

Can I watch my Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night (usually about midnight) while I do push ups after a hard and busy day? Or is this evidence of my laziness and worldliness?

Believe you are familiar with Scripture...

What does Scripture say on that?
 
Trevor, as a moderator on the PB I am offering special absolution for you to watch Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night while doing push ups. (I suggest 3 sets of 25 with a break in between).

Now, if you can get the attention of a Super Mod or Admin, they can give you absolution to watch, oh lets say..... the Trinity Broadcasting Network. No, I'm serious, they are THAT powerful.
 
So...

Can I watch my Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night (usually about midnight) while I do push ups after a hard and busy day? Or is this evidence of my laziness and worldliness?

No, you may not. You must watch Lost without any distractions; if you do pushups, you'll miss the little details that make the show what it is. This desire to do pushups while watching is evidence of your inner fundy trying to get out :p

I'd recommend a mai tai with Lost after a hard and busy day, but I'm not sure where you're at on that, so I'll refrain ;)

Oh, and season 2 got to be pretty dark; my wife and I didn't like it as much as the first. The third got off to a rocky start, but it gets back on track, almost as good as the first season.
 
Trevor, as a moderator on the PB I am offering special absolution for you to watch Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night while doing push ups. (I suggest 3 sets of 25 with a break in between).

Now, if you can get the attention of a Super Mod or Admin, they can give you absolution to watch, oh lets say..... the Trinity Broadcasting Network. No, I'm serious, they are THAT powerful.

:rofl: :lol:
 
Bill, the quote from the sermon is merely what lead me to delve further into scripture - I have spent some quality time with James, John, Matthew Henry, and a few others over the last while or so (but didn't get as much done at work as I'd hoped!) The charge that my reading during this time was then biased may have some merit, but I don't feel that my behaviour is at issue with the verse you quoted.

Kevin, the verse I quoted had nothing to do with you. I was responding to Bob's post. Had I wished to direct a comment your way I would have responded directly to your OP.

Also, tell me this (and tell me if I am misunderstanding you): Why is it that we do not charge the Puritans with legalism, that we do not make mention of how they were sailing towards monasticism? We are dealing with a number of similar issues that they were: a corrupt governing body, false teachings in the church, false prophets, you name it. Did the Puritan martyrs miss the boat and die for nothing? Their lives were incredibly offensive to the world, and why? The world saw Christ in them, and hated them for it.

I cannot look into the heart of each brother who is agreement with Puritan theology. They would say that Puritan theology is actually Reformed theology. So be it. But can you really paint with such a broad brush? Yes, I suppose there are those who drink the Puritan Kool-Aide without question. Their condition is no different than the dispensationalist who believes the Left Behind series is accurate in its eschatology. Often times I see the WCF quoted in response to a question without any original opinion other than what the framers of that great confession wrote. But for every "because the WCF says it, I believe it!" response, there are far more thoughtful responses that dive deep into the scriptures. That is the reason I am part of the PB. I am interested in knowing the scriptures and the brethren on the PB have helped me greatly in this endeavor.

But no, they are not my model, Christ is. I am not seeking to walk as other men in the thinking that they are the measure of the Christian life.

Don't be so quick to toss aside the examples of godly men. Consider what the scriptures say:

1 Corinthians 4:16-17 16 I exhort you therefore, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,

1 Thessalonians 2:14 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

Hebrews 6:11-12 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Kevin, to the degree that godly men display Christ, we are to follow their example. You are not placing your faith in men when you follow their example, you are placing your faith in God.

I think that what Bob said was dead on - I seek this path to "honor the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit." It is gratitude (guilt, grace, gratitude - that's the logic!) All the works of my hands are nothing before him - to offer them in an effort to be more presentable is only to sin against Him.

Correct. If you present the works of your hands in order to improve your condition before God, that would be sin. But if you present your labors as an act of service, the service of a bond-servant, then your works will find favor with God.

I still think liberty falls down somewhere here as our actions conflict with scripture - and they always will as we consume the goods of a godless world.
"My brother may stumble with going to the movies, whereas I have no such problem" - and there may be the odd movie that would pass the test. But I don't know that I've seen even a Disney movie in the last decade that has passed "honor your father and mother", never mind several other commandments. What's top of the box office now? "300"? How far does our liberty extend? While I may not stumble going to the movies, can I really say it is beneficial?

Kevin, you're standing on a slippery slope. You're setting yourself up as Pope. Unless you know your brother is specifically sinning, how can you elevate yourself to judge? Can you ascertain the thoughts and intentions of the heart? Doesn't that belong to God (Hebrews 4:12)?

What is the slippery slope you're standing on? The one of legalism. While you have not said it, you are one step away from advocating abstaining as a means of godliness.

Yes, there is danger in constructing a list of what we must do but that is not scriptural. And this behaviour is born of scripture and gratitude, nothing else (says the sinful man before you...)

Kevin, this comment seems more like a disclaimer than one of conviction. I believe you see the conflict in your thoughts. I would counsel you not to form definite opinions at this point. I believe you need to A. search the scriptures diligently -and- B. Seek wise counsel from your pastor or elders.
 
Kevin, the verse I quoted had nothing to do with you. I was responding to Bob's post. Had I wished to direct a comment your way I would have responded directly to your OP.

OK. As I said previously, I'm not sure if I misunderstood you, and I guess I did in that case.

Don't be so quick to toss aside the examples of godly men. Consider what the scriptures say

It was not my intent to toss aside the examples of godly men, not at all, but instead to make the point that I am not taking the Puritans (or any specific man, for that matter) to be the be all and end all of the Christian walk (though the OP may suggest I feel that way - I still think they were way cool). The lives of both my grandfathers, as well as my father, as well as a number of other godly men I know, are all shining examples of the Christian life to me and I take their living testimony for what it is, a human imitation of Christ. I would be foolish to take them as perfect - we are all to stand in light of scripture, even men such as these (and none will be found without stain). Asking such questions as I am, there is the danger that one can take another man's living sacrifice as their new idol, I wanted to make it clear that I was not.

Kevin, to the degree that godly men display Christ, we are to follow their example. You are not placing your faith in men when you follow their example, you are placing your faith in God.
Agreed. 100%.

Kevin, you're standing on a slippery slope. You're setting yourself up as Pope. Unless you know your brother is specifically sinning, how can you elevate yourself to judge? Can you ascertain the thoughts and intentions of the heart? Doesn't that belong to God (Hebrews 4:12)?

What is the slippery slope you're standing on? The one of legalism. While you have not said it, you are one step away from advocating abstaining as a means of godliness.

No, I cannot elevate myself to judge - I look to scripture to judge what is right and holy and what is not. Your intention in seeing '300' (or any other movie, for that matter) may be for simply enjoyment and entertainment but if the contents are of such a nature as to be scripturally unsound or even repungnant, what are we doing there? If I go to a strip joint just to learn new dance moves and have a beer and can say that I am not brought to adulterous thoughts by my presence there, does that mean that no brother should have the audacity to speak to me of the wickedness I am participating in?

Find the benefit to a Christian in these verses:

I feel drawn towards the evil chanting hordes
They seem to mesmerise me ... can't avoid their eyes
666 the number of the beast
666 the one for you and me

I'm coming back I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take it's course

We do not specifically sin in listening to it; we are not involved in worship of Satan, we are merely a spectator, listening to a song about an experience that involved a third party. Is there then no sin in partaking thereof? I'm sorry; hand me the funny hat, get me started on Latin lessons, and get me a good German beer - I will accept the title of Pope if that is what my comments were in this instance.

My error in the OP is perhaps to have designated what "qualified" - and I may have given too narrow a designation. But I find it difficult to find fault in striving to live for Christ and taking scripture as my guide.

As for advocating legalism by such behaviour, that is a very wide brush indeed. I am talking about nothing more than the behaviour and lifestyle of people I know in the Canadian Reformed Church and the Free Reformed Church back home. Legalism is a danger, sure. But anyone who claims to follow the Ten Commandments stands in such danger. Shall we not eat that we would be free of the possibility of gluttony?

Kevin, this comment seems more like a disclaimer than one of conviction. I believe you see the conflict in your thoughts. I would counsel you not to form definite opinions at this point. I believe you need to A. search the scriptures diligently -and- B. Seek wise counsel from your pastor or elders.

It is no disclaimer, it is a presentation that while these are my convictions, I am yet a sinful man - I seek to be Christ-like, and will exert my every human effort to do so, but I will accept scriptural correction. I stand convicted to reform my life to more fully serve Him, that is all. This has raised the questions in the OP. The counsel I have sought from those with authority in this area has done nothing more than further convict me in this way.
 
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Kevin, you're standing on a slippery slope. You're setting yourself up as Pope. Unless you know your brother is specifically sinning, how can you elevate yourself to judge? Can you ascertain the thoughts and intentions of the heart? Doesn't that belong to God (Hebrews 4:12)?

What is the slippery slope you're standing on? The one of legalism. While you have not said it, you are one step away from advocating abstaining as a means of godliness.


Quote:
Yes, there is danger in constructing a list of what we must do but that is not scriptural. And this behaviour is born of scripture and gratitude, nothing else (says the sinful man before you...)

Kevin, this comment seems more like a disclaimer than one of conviction. I believe you see the conflict in your thoughts. I would counsel you not to form definite opinions at this point. I believe you need to A. search the scriptures diligently -and- B. Seek wise counsel from your pastor or elders.

Bob, I would be very careful, if I were you, not to tilt the plank the other way, and slide into the abyss of antinomianism and lawlessness. There is a fine balance here. Yes, we have Christian liberty, but let us not use this liberty for an occasion for the flesh.

Everything is lawful for me, but everything does not edify.

Quit asking "What is wrong with it"

Start asking "What is right with it"

And perhaps: "Can I, in good conscience, ask the Lord's blessing over this?"
__________________
 
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