Scotland: A Covenanted Nation? (Scottish Reformation Society Sermon)

[Moireach]

Last Friday at the Scottish Reformation Society meeting the Rev Kenneth Stewart of the RPCS preached on this topic and it's really worth listening to. He talks about the covenants and takes countries like the US, Canada, Australia and NZ into it too.

Very very highly recommended.

Post thoughts after listening to it if you wish.

Scotland: A Covenanted Land? - SermonAudio.com

 

[ADKing]

It was great to hear such a clear statement of historic RP views which have not been so clearly articulated in recent years!

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

The sermon was phenomenal. He does an especially excellent job of talking about how the whole idea of Covenanting should pervade Reformed theology at every level.

 

[HaMetumtam]

I am lost for words.

I have sent the sermon this to my Minister.Thank you for sharing

I looked for a copy of the covenant, here is the THE SOLEMN LEAGUE AND COVENANT to read, if interested, it's pretty short.

 

[OPC'n]

God doesn't makes covenants with ppl who are not his children, and therefore, a nation as a whole cannot be in a covenant with God. Only those ppl in the nation who belong to God can be in a covenant with God. OT Israel was the only nation who could claim a national covenant with God. God made the covenant with Israel and when Christ came that covenant extended to many people in many races but certainly not with a whole nation. It's not Scriptural. No where in the NT do you find any apostle preaching that whole nations were to write up covenants with God. No nation today is OT Israel. At one time in history, Scotland might have had a majority of reformed Christians who made a covenant with God but what they failed to realize is that their written covenant to God was to only put into writing what was already done for them by a covenant that could not be broken by any power and that is the salvational covenant. So no, Scotland isn't God's covenantal nation nor is any other country only his bride can claim that covenant with him.

 

[Moireach]

God doesn't makes covenants with ppl who are not his children, and therefore, a nation as a whole cannot be in a covenant with God. Only those ppl in the nation who belong to God can be in a covenant with God. OT Israel was the only nation who could claim a national covenant with God. God made the covenant with Israel and when Christ came that covenant extended to many people in many races but certainly not with a whole nation. It's not Scriptural. No where in the NT do you find any apostle preaching that whole nations were to write up covenants with God. No nation today is OT Israel. At one time in history, Scotland might have had a majority of reformed Christians who made a covenant with God but what they failed to realize is that their written covenant to God was to only put into writing what was already done for them by a covenant that could not be broken by any power and that is the salvational covenant. So no, Scotland isn't God's covenantal nation nor is any other country only his bride can claim that covenant with him.

I'd suggest listening to the talk. Your arguments don't counter the arguments put forth.

 

[OPC'n]

I did listen to it. However, I would like to correct a few things I said in my first comment. The salvational covenant was made among the Three Persons of the Godhead and that is why that covenant can never be broken. If it had been made between God and man, man would have broken it long ago and there would be no salvational covenant. His ppl were brought into that covenant a covenant which cannot not be broken by us. The NT states to never swear on anything in heaven or on earth etc for a reason....we cannot keep covenants made to God and it's a sinful thing to try to make one and then end up breaking it. Scripture does not allow us to write up covenants for a whole nation dedicating that nation to God.

 

[HaMetumtam]

I don't think anyone would claim Scotland as God's covenantal nation, thats well beyond me as a reasonable proposition. I think rather the question is does God enter into pledges/covenants like marriage vows and so forth and if He does ...Can we make vows to God and not pay them ?

I've never heard this stuff before, i'm trying to work through it. But thats what i got from the sermon.

 

[Moireach]

I did listen to it. However, I would like to correct a few things I said in my first comment. The salvational covenant was made among the Three Persons of the Godhead and that is why that covenant can never be broken. If it had been made between God and man, man would have broken it long ago and there would be no salvational covenant. His ppl were brought into that covenant a covenant which cannot not be broken by us. The NT states to never swear on anything in heaven or on earth etc for a reason....we cannot keep covenants made to God and it's a sinful thing to try to make one and then end up breaking it. Scripture does not allow us to write up covenants for a whole nation dedicating that nation to God.

Think about it though, vows and covenants are undoubtedly right and scriptural. You take one upon marriage, they're taken when men are inducted into office in the church. It is not a reformed and confessional view to say that they are sinful.

 

[OPC'n]

I don't think anyone would claim Scotland as God's covenantal nation, thats well beyond me as a reasonable proposition. I think rather the question is does God enter into pledges/covenants like marriage vows and so forth and if He does ...Can we make vows to God and not pay them ?

I've never heard this stuff before, i'm trying to work through it. But thats what i got from the sermon.

No, we cannot enter into any covenant with God bc we will enviably break that covenant. We were brought into the salvational covenant and by extension we are in a covenantal relationship with God but only bc the Godhead made the salvational covenant among themselves which cannot not be broken since they are three in one and one in three. Look at what happened to Scotland. They wrote out this covenant and then they broke it. God never asked them to write out a covenant dedicating a whole nation to him. Yet they did it and broke it and thus sinned greatly by doing so....forgiven? yes, but still they did something not taught in Scripture.

 

[OPC'n]

I did listen to it. However, I would like to correct a few things I said in my first comment. The salvational covenant was made among the Three Persons of the Godhead and that is why that covenant can never be broken. If it had been made between God and man, man would have broken it long ago and there would be no salvational covenant. His ppl were brought into that covenant a covenant which cannot not be broken by us. The NT states to never swear on anything in heaven or on earth etc for a reason....we cannot keep covenants made to God and it's a sinful thing to try to make one and then end up breaking it. Scripture does not allow us to write up covenants for a whole nation dedicating that nation to God.

Think about it though, vows and covenants are undoubtedly right and scriptural. You take one upon marriage, they're taken when men are inducted into office in the church. It is not a reformed and confessional view to say that they are sinful.

A marriage covenant isn't a covenant where you dedicate heathen ppl to God for the life of that nation.

 

[OPC'n]

You cannot write up on paper promising to God that your nation will always follow him until his return. No where in Scripture does God give us that command.

 

[OPC'n]

I shouldn't say we cannot enter into any covenant bc yes we enter into a marriage covenant etc but we are not talking about those things with this sermon. They dedicated a whole nation which had heathens in it to God. It's unscriptural.

 

[Tim]

It's unscriptural.

Sarah, please realize that you are now speaking against the entire body of Scottish Covenanters, which includes the Reformed Presbyterian Churches in Scotland, Ireland, North America, Australia, etc., and other like-minded individuals across the world. As a Presbyterian yourself, I think you might be a bit more cautious about dismissing the entire notion of national covenanting for two reasons that immediately come to mind: 1) the Solemn League and Covenant is included among the documents that are additional to the very standards that you confess; 2) in this thread, two Presbyterian pastors have indicated their approval of these ideas. Those facts alone would seem to call someone to be a bit slower to speak against this practice.

Instead of proclaiming how these folks are/were all wrong, why not seek to understand a bit more about the history of it and reasons for doing so? Your approach right now is akin to speaking against every Baptist on the PB for their views on baptism. You may hold a different position than they do, but it would clearly not be in good taste to make such sweeping statements.

 

[ADKing]

Sarah, you seem to be unfamiliar with the extensive literature and argumentation behind the ordinance of social covenanting. Many of your objections are answered by authors who have written on the subject. Might I suggest, if you truly have an interest in learning, that you read John Cunningham's "The Ordinance of Covenanting"? The ordinance of covenanting - John Cunningham - Google Books Or for a much shorter introduction see here http://rpc.org/page/testimony&page=4

1). The reformation churches, almost entirely had an understanding of social covenanting. This should at least give us pause to try to understand their reasoning before we are so dismissive.

2). Promising perfect obedience would indeed be wrong, I agree since we have no reason to believe that we can do that in this life. But that is not a reason not to make any vow at all. We may certainly promise (in fact must) that we will embrace the obligations God lays on us and do them. These promises are made in reliance upon his grace as we endeavor to obey his commands.

3). Why is it so inconceivable that an authority makes promises to God of things that God requires in its name and the name of those under it? Think of an analagous situation. The family is a God ordained institution. Families are obligated to worship God (Jeremiah 10.25). The father of that family is under obligation to see to it that those under his authority serve the Lord. Thus, he is responsible that Sabbath observance be enforced in his home (Exodus 20.10). He can and should declare "as for me and my house we will serve the LORD" (Johsua 24.15). As a Presbyterian, you also recognize it is the duty of the parents to dedicate their children, under their authority to serve God by having them baptized, bringing them under the obligation of God's covenant. All these things are not only right, but duties in Christian families, irrespective of whether or not every member of the home is in fact a true believer. Government is also a God ordained institution. It too is under obligations to God. I fail to see why it would be improper for that nation, recognizing and submitting to its obligations to declare so publicly for itself and those under its authority. Certainly we have several examples of this being done in the Old Testament.

4). As for nations other than Israel, Isaiah 19.18-25 looks forward to the day when nations such as Egypt and Assyria engage in national covenanting. Undoubtedly what is being referred to by Isaiah here awaits fulfilment in the New Testament age. Read those verses carefully!

18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the Lord of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.

20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it.

22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

 

[OPC'n]

It's unscriptural.

Sarah, please realize that you are now speaking against the entire body of Scottish Covenanters, which includes the Reformed Presbyterian Churches in Scotland, Ireland, North America, Australia, etc., and other like-minded individuals across the world. As a Presbyterian yourself, I think you might be a bit more cautious about dismissing the entire notion of national covenanting for two reasons that immediately come to mind: 1) the Solemn League and Covenant is included among the documents that are additional to the very standards that you confess; 2) in this thread, two Presbyterian pastors have indicated their approval of these ideas. Those facts alone would seem to call someone to be a bit slower to speak against this practice.

Instead of proclaiming how these folks are/were all wrong, why not seek to understand a bit more about the history of it and reasons for doing so? Your approach right now is akin to speaking against every Baptist on the PB for their views on baptism. You may hold a different position than they do, but it would clearly not be in good taste to make such sweeping statements.

Tim, which Scripture teaches us to write up covenants to dedicate whole nations to God for the lifetime of that nation? Show me that Scripture and I will certainly acknowledge my error.

 

[HaMetumtam]

I see your point very clearly and i almost agree with you as i dont see much of it in scripture outside Israel although Nineveh could be argued as an example of national repentance and dedication to the true and living God, It's rare nevertheless... But you said we cannot enter into a covenant with God.

What about baptism ? would this not be considered a covenant symbol as circumcision was to the Jew ?

The point that men are sinful and will 'almost' always break covenants is beside the point.

My uneducated view on the whole thing is this, The Reformers were coming out of great deal of persecution, toils and struggles with Rome and England and were looking to unify the nations in the protection of religious truth as seen by the Reformers, in the pursuit to do this they ratified a covenant or pledge to unite the 3 countries to serve God in truth. It was ratified by all kinds of people from the top to the bottom of society and was a declaration of intent to serve God by the truth revealed in scripture.

To me it differs from the suzarian/vassel covenant which God had with Israel as He laid out what would happen to them beforehand if the covenant was broken, the blessings and curses were laid out. To me this is an altogether different type of covenant, as it was initiated by God.

I see the the solemn league covenant as a pledge of intent to hold fast to biblical truth which had been under attack from all sides. The pledge was made by men who were dedicating themselves and the countries to God. Was it significant or insignificant in Gods eyes ?

I think it is significant as i know God responds to genuine repentance but thats about all i can say at the moment. Bottom line for me is .....the Most High has sovereignty over the kingdom of man and gives it to whom he will. Daniel 4

intersting topic regarding covenants and their significance.

 

[OPC'n]

I see your point very clearly and i almost agree with you as i dont see much of it in scripture outside Israel although Nineveh could be argued as an example of national repentance and dedication to the true and living God, It's rare nevertheless... But you said we cannot enter into a covenant with God.

What about baptism ? would this not be considered a covenant symbol as circumcision was to the Jew ?

The point that men are sinful and will 'almost' always break covenants is beside the point.

My uneducated view on the whole thing is this, The Reformers were coming out of great deal of persecution, toils and struggles with Rome and England and were looking to unify the nations in the protection of religious truth as seen by the Reformers, in the pursuit to do this they ratified a covenant or pledge to unite the 3 countries to serve God in truth. It was ratified by all kinds of people from the top to the bottom of society and was a declaration of intent to serve God by the truth revealed in scripture.

To me it differs from the suzarian/vassel covenant which God had with Israel as He laid out what would happen to them beforehand if the covenant was broken, the blessings and curses were laid out. To me this is an altogether different type of covenant, as it was initiated by God.

I see the the solemn league covenant as a pledge of intent to hold fast to biblical truth which had been under attack from all sides. The pledge was made by men who were dedicating themselves and the countries to God. Was it significant or insignificant in Gods eyes ?

I think it is significant as i know God responds to genuine repentance but thats about all i can say at the moment. Bottom line for me is .....the Most High has sovereignty over the kingdom of man and gives it to whom he will. Daniel 4

intersting topic regarding covenants and their significance.

First, I did correct myself that we cannot make a covenant with God such as marriage etc. But why is it that we can enter into those types of covenants? Because God commands that if we marry we make a covenant to him concerning marriage. He commands that we be baptized. Where does he command that we write up on paper something that dedicates a whole nation to God in order to make that nation a covenanted nation for the length of it's existence? What do you do with those who are not of the elect? They certainly are apart of that nation. Are we now suppose to write up the same type of covenant in our churches dedicating America to God? If not, why not? If so, how do you answer to God about all the millions who will never serve him? You just promised God something you can't fulfill.

 

[OPC'n]

Sarah, you seem to be unfamiliar with the extensive literature and argumentation behind the ordinance of social covenanting. Many of your objections are answered by authors who have written on the subject. Might I suggest, if you truly have an interest in learning, that you read John Cunningham's "The Ordinance of Covenanting"? The ordinance of covenanting - John Cunningham - Google Books Or for a much shorter introduction see here Covenanting

1). The reformation churches, almost entirely had an understanding of social covenanting. This should at least give us pause to try to understand their reasoning before we are so dismissive.

2). Promising perfect obedience would indeed be wrong, I agree since we have no reason to believe that we can do that in this life. But that is not a reason not to make any vow at all. We may certainly promise (in fact must) that we will embrace the obligations God lays on us and do them. These promises are made in reliance upon his grace as we endeavor to obey his commands.

3). Why is it so inconceivable that an authority makes promises to God of things that God requires in its name and the name of those under it? Think of an analagous situation. The family is a God ordained institution. Families are obligated to worship God (Jeremiah 10.25). The father of that family is under obligation to see to it that those under his authority serve the Lord. Thus, he is responsible that Sabbath observance be enforced in his home (Exodus 20.10). He can and should declare "as for me and my house we will serve the LORD" (Johsua 24.15). As a Presbyterian, you also recognize it is the duty of the parents to dedicate their children, under their authority to serve God by having them baptized, bringing them under the obligation of God's covenant. All these things are not only right, but duties in Christian families, irrespective of whether or not every member of the home is in fact a true believer. Government is also a God ordained institution. It too is under obligations to God. I fail to see why it would be improper for that nation, recognizing and submitting to its obligations to declare so publicly for itself and those under its authority. Certainly we have several examples of this being done in the Old Testament.

4). As for nations other than Israel, Isaiah 19.18-25 looks forward to the day when nations such as Egypt and Assyria engage in national covenanting. Undoubtedly what is being referred to by Isaiah here awaits fulfilment in the New Testament age. Read those verses carefully!

18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the Lord of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.

20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it.

22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Apparently, I am unfamiliar with the extensive literature and argumentation behind the ordinance of social covenanting bc I haven't read one thing in Scripture to support it. I highly value our confessions and highly value all the work that our forefathers did on our behalf. However, only Scripture is infallible. When the cannon was closed it was truly closed. I'm not so closed minded that if you can come up with Scripture which gives us the command to write up covenants to God dedicating a whole nation to serving him, I won't then relent and say I'm wrong. I just need that Scripture which gives us that command to include heathens in serving God.

 

[ADKing]

Are we now suppose to write up the same type of covenant in our churches dedicating America to God? If not, why not? If so, how do you answer to God about all the millions who will never serve him? You just promised God something you can't fulfill.

I encourage you to go back and re-read my post. You still seem to be laboring uder a misconception. You aske if we should write such a covenant in our churches. What is being discussed here is national covenanting, i.e. the nation in its representatives covenanting with God. The church may lead the way and help with wording etc. but we are talking about a deed of the nation itself. And yes, America ought to do this. The nation is not to promise that every citizen will be a believer. Such a thing is in the power of God alone to accomplish. No parent can promise that his child will be a believer. But a nation can promise, in its national capactity, to do things like 1) promote the true religion 2) oppose certain dangerous false religions. This is certainly something within its power as a nation, if it had a will to do so. In a covenanted nation, there are still some who will not believe. They could be punished if their rebellion amounted to that (2 Chronicles 15.13). If such rebellion does not rise to that height, a nation can sill mourn a minority who will not serve the Lord as a parent mourns a wayward child. In the case that the majority of the nation apostasizes and will not serve God or stand to its covenant then it will answer before God in in judgment.

 

[ADKing]

Apparently, I am unfamiliar with the extensive literature and argumentation behind the ordinance of social covenanting bc I haven't read one thing in Scripture to support it. I highly value our confessions and highly value all the work that our forefathers did on our behalf. However, only Scripture is infallible. When the cannon was closed it was truly closed. I'm not so closed minded that if you can come up with Scripture which gives us the command to write up covenants to God dedicating a whole nation to serving him, I won't then relent and say I'm wrong. I just need that Scripture which gives us that command to include heathens in serving God.

Yes, the Bible is our only rule of faith and life. But surely you recognize the fact that some doctrines and practices are derived from Scripture by good and necessary consequence. You are a presbyterian. When your baptist friends challenge you about infant baptism you do not respond with one proof text but have to walk them through the whole argument. Covenanting is similar. You need to understand the whole argument derived from Scripture and stop looking for one place that mentions "covenanting on paper" (although this does seem to be in view in Isaiah 44.5 when something is subscribed with the hand!).

Secondly, the fact that you keep metionining "hethens serving God" shows you haven't understood an important principle yet. Who should serve God? Everyone! Just because one is an unbeliever does not "let him off the hook" so to speak from being obliged to serve God. The issue is that proper authority does have the right to oblige those under their authority to serve God outwardly. It is certaily so in the family. A heathen government will not take such an initiative. But the government ought to acknowledge God and ought to do so.

 

[OPC'n]

Are we now suppose to write up the same type of covenant in our churches dedicating America to God? If not, why not? If so, how do you answer to God about all the millions who will never serve him? You just promised God something you can't fulfill.

I encourage you to go back and re-read my post. You still seem to be laboring uder a misconception. You aske if we should write such a covenant in our churches. What is being discussed here is national covenanting, i.e. the nation in its representatives covenanting with God. The church may lead the way and help with wording etc. but we are talking about a deed of the nation itself. And yes, America ought to do this. The nation is not to promise that every citizen will be a believer. Such a thing is in the power of God alone to accomplish. No parent can promise that his child will be a believer. But a nation can promise, in its national capactity, to do things like 1) promote the true religion 2) oppose certain dangerous false religions. This is certainly something within its power as a nation, if it had a will to do so. In a covenanted nation, there are still some who will not believe. They could be punished if their rebellion amounted to that (2 Chronicles 15.13). If such rebellion does not rise to that height, a nation can sill mourn a minority who will not serve the Lord as a parent mourns a wayward child. In the case that the majority of the nation apostasizes and will not serve God or stand to its covenant then it will answer before God in in judgment.

You keep resorting back to OT times. Did ANY of the apostles do this with the nation in which they lived? Did they even come close to mentioning such a thing? Did they command us to do it and where did they command us to do it? I really wish we could get Obama to do this. Look, I'm not saying I wish from the bottom of my heart that America would serve God and make that commitment. I WISH IT SO MUCH! But I"m not going to write out a covenant to God saying we will. I would being lying to do such a thing. What I can do is spread the Gospel which IS clearly written out in Scripture for us to do.

 

[OPC'n]

Apparently, I am unfamiliar with the extensive literature and argumentation behind the ordinance of social covenanting bc I haven't read one thing in Scripture to support it. I highly value our confessions and highly value all the work that our forefathers did on our behalf. However, only Scripture is infallible. When the cannon was closed it was truly closed. I'm not so closed minded that if you can come up with Scripture which gives us the command to write up covenants to God dedicating a whole nation to serving him, I won't then relent and say I'm wrong. I just need that Scripture which gives us that command to include heathens in serving God.

Yes, the Bible is our only rule of faith and life. But surely you recognize the fact that some doctrines and practices are derived from Scripture by good and necessary consequence. You are a presbyterian. When your baptist friends challenge you about infant baptism you do not respond with one proof text but have to walk them through the whole argument. Covenanting is similar. You need to understand the whole argument derived from Scripture and stop looking for one place that mentions "covenanting on paper" (although this does seem to be in view in Isaiah 44.5 when something is subscribed with the hand!).

Secondly, the fact that you keep metionining "hethens serving God" shows you haven't understood an important principle yet. Who should serve God? Everyone! Just because one is an unbeliever does not "let him off the hook" so to speak from being obliged to serve God. The issue is that proper authority does have the right to oblige those under their authority to serve God outwardly. It is certaily so in the family. A heathen government will not take such an initiative. But the government ought to acknowledge God and ought to do so.

So walk me through all the Scripture which leads to a national covenant with God. I'm not saying that the heathens shouldn't obey God's law. The fact that they can't and never will is the reason why they are going to hell. Of course they should! But obeying God's law and failing to do so and entering into a covenantal relationship with God is altogether a whole separate thing. EVERYONE is required to obey the law. Those who have not been brought into the salvational covenant will pay in hell and those who have will earn eternal life bc of Christ's work. Let's look at baptism. We baptist infants bc they are covenant children under their believing parents. WE DON'T baptize unbelieving adults. So why would we bring in unbelieving adults into a covenant with God?

 

[ADKing]

No one is asking you to make such a covenant indivdually. National covenanting requires the nation, in its representatives, to make such a covennat. You are right, that in its present form this seems unlikely in America. If we want to see something like this happen we definitely need to spread the gospel. The Great Commission, afterall, requires us to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28.19)! We do not start by telling unbelievers their duty and expecting them to do it. What is being dealt with here is how Christian nations should (and I believe will) respond. In this regard, America and Scotland are not alike. Scotland has been a Christian nation that is apostasizing, American has never been a Christian nation and still has to be brought under the scepter of Christ.

What is wrong with resorting back to the OT? That sounds like a very baptistic argument "Why do you keep going back and talking about circumcision?" The apostles did not live long enough to see the nations brought under Christ (though they did teach that Christ was the king of nations e.g. Acts 17.7). Clearly, the result of their work, however, at length did bring the pagan Roman empire to acknowledge Christ!

Furthermore, some of the OT places I cited (e.g. Isaiah 19) are prophecies of what God will do in NT times. That should speak loudly to NT believers as we wait, labor for and anticipate these things!

 

[OPC'n]

No one is asking you to make such a covenant indivdually. National covenanting requires the nation, in its representatives, to make such a covennat. You are right, that in its present form this seems unlikely in America. If we want to see something like this happen we definitely need to spread the gospel. The Great Commission, afterall, requires us to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28.19)! We do not start by telling unbelievers their duty and expecting them to do it. What is being dealt with here is how Christian nations should (and I believe will) respond. In this regard, America and Scotland are not alike. Scotland has been a Christian nation that is apostasizing, American has never been a Christian nation and still has to be brought under the scepter of Christ.

What is wrong with resorting back to the OT? That sounds like a very baptistic argument "Why do you keep going back and talking about circumcision?" The apostles did not live long enough to see the nations brought under Christ (though they did teach that Christ was the king of nations e.g. Acts 17.7). Clearly, the result of their work, however, at length did bring the pagan Roman empire to acknowledge Christ!

Furthermore, some of the OT places I cited (e.g. Isaiah 19) are prophecies of what God will do in NT times. That should speak loudly to NT believers as we wait, labor for and anticipate these things!

No, I've never been a Baptist. I don't even know what they believe to be honest. I have two experiences dispensationalist cults (then living as a heathen) and Presbyterian. The reason I say you keep going back to OT for proof is bc of dispensationalists rhetoric. All this notion that God "has a chosen nation" i.e America (frankly this is the first time i've heard of another nation claiming to be God's chosen nation) will never settle well with me. OT Israel is over we need to move on. There isn't a nation on earth that is Christian or is "God's special nation". All nations have Christians in it but all nations will be hedonistic until his second coming and no paperwork will make this country or any other country a servant of Christ.

 

[OPC'n]

The apostles did not live long enough to see the nations brought under Christ (though they did teach that Christ was the king of nations e.g. Acts 17.7). Clearly, the result of their work, however, at length did bring the pagan Roman empire to acknowledge Christ!

The Scriptures are not confined to the length of the apostles' longevity of age! They didn't write Scripture according to "what's happening in my time and that's what you should do in your time". They wrote Scripture through the Holy Spirit and Scripture applies to all ages. If they didn't write up a covenant with God dedicating Rome (or any other nation) in servitude to God then what gives us the right to make up this command?

 

[ADKing]

The apostles did not live long enough to see the nations brought under Christ (though they did teach that Christ was the king of nations e.g. Acts 17.7). Clearly, the result of their work, however, at length did bring the pagan Roman empire to acknowledge Christ!

The Scriptures are not confined to the length of the apostles' longevity of age! They didn't write Scripture according to "what's happening in my time and that's what you should do in your time". They wrote Scripture through the Holy Spirit and Scripture applies to all ages. If they didn't write up a covenant with God dedicating Rome (or any other nation) in servitude to God then what gives us the right to make up this command?

The apostles were not civil magistrates. As I keep repeating, you confound the roles of church and state. The absence of a covenant drawn up by the apostles for the nation is no indication that they did not believe it was incumbent upon nations themselves to do so. You are beginning to argue against staw men (and ones that have been pointed out to you at that). You really need to do some reading. Start with the shorter introduction I posted from the RPC of Ireland.

 

[OPC'n]

The apostles did not live long enough to see the nations brought under Christ (though they did teach that Christ was the king of nations e.g. Acts 17.7). Clearly, the result of their work, however, at length did bring the pagan Roman empire to acknowledge Christ!

The Scriptures are not confined to the length of the apostles' longevity of age! They didn't write Scripture according to "what's happening in my time and that's what you should do in your time". They wrote Scripture through the Holy Spirit and Scripture applies to all ages. If they didn't write up a covenant with God dedicating Rome (or any other nation) in servitude to God then what gives us the right to make up this command?

The apostles were not civil magistrates. As I keep repeating, you confound the roles of church and state. The absence of a covenant drawn up by the apostles for the nation is no indication that they did not believe it was incumbent upon nations themselves to do so. You are beginning to argue against staw men (and ones that have been pointed out to you at that). You really need to do some reading. Start with the shorter introduction I posted from the RPC of Ireland.

I'm not confusing anything at all. What I did ask for was Scriptural proof that we or our governmental agents are suppose to write up covenantal contracts with God pledging a whole nation's devotion and servitude to him until his second coming. All I'm getting is "well, the apostles didn't live that long to know they should do that" or "it's not what the apostles say to do but the Scotts did it so it has to be right".

 

[JennyG]

You just promised God something you can't fulfill.

we can never promise anything good at that rate
Governments do in fact act in the name of nations and commit their peoples to this or that, sometimes very bad, course of action. It's what it means to be in that position of leadership. So I think that in that state of high national and spiritual unanimity that prevailed at the time, ...what else would they do but declare such an earnest covenant purpose??
I was just reading half an hour ago about how the astronauts read from the Book of Genesis as they orbited the Earth. I don't doubt they felt they were also doing it, in some sense, on humanity's behalf. They had much less of a mandate, you could say (and I know it really annoyed some atheists) but I still think it was the right thing to do. Not that they covenanted anything of course,so I may be going off the point, sorry... it's getting late here

 

[Peairtach]

It is certainly possible for someone or some persons to covenant with God respecting some matter, but serious and solemn thought must go into it, as it is better not to vow than to vow and not fulfil:

Chapter XXII
Of Lawful Oaths and Vows

I. A lawful oath is part of religious worship,[1] wherein, upon just occasion, the person swearing solemnly calls God to witness what he asserts, or promises, and to judge him according to the truth or falsehood of what he swears.[2]

II. The name of God only is that by which men ought to swear, and therein it is to be used with all holy fear and reverence.[3] Therefore, to swear vainly, or rashly, by that glorious and dreadful Name; or, to swear at all by any other thing, is sinful, and to be abhorred.[4] Yet, as in matters of weight and moment, an oath is warranted by the Word of God, under the New Testament as well as under the old;[5] so a lawful oath, being imposed by lawful authority, in such matters, ought to be taken.[6]

III. Whosoever takes an oath ought duly to consider the weightiness of so solemn an act, and therein to avouch nothing but what he is fully persuaded is the truth:[7] neither may any man bind himself by oath to any thing but what is good and just, and what he believes so to be, and what he is able and resolved to perform.[8] Yet it is a sin to refuse an oath touching any thing that is good and just, being imposed by lawful authority.[9]

IV. An oath is to be taken in the plain and common sense of the words, without equivocation, or mental reservation.[10] It cannot oblige to sin; but in any thing not sinful, being taken, it binds to performance, although to a man's own hurt.[11] Not is it to be violated, although made to heretics, or infidels.[12]

V. A vow is of the like nature with a promissory oath, and ought to be made with the like religious care, and to be performed with the like faithfulness.[13]

VI. It is not to be made to any creature, but to God alone:[14] and that it may be accepted, it is to be made voluntarily, out of faith, and conscience of duty, in way of thankfulness for mercy received, or for the obtaining of what we want, whereby we more strictly bind ourselves to necessary duties: or, to other things, so far and so long as they may fitly conduce thereunto.[15]

VII. No man may vow to do any thing forbidden in the Word of God, or what would hinder any duty therein commanded, or which is not in his own power, and for the performance whereof he has no promise of ability from God.[16] In which respects, popish monastical vows of perpetual single life, professed poverty, and regular obedience, are so far from being degrees of higher perfection, that they are superstitious and sinful snares, in which no Christian may entangle himself.[17]

[1] DEU 10:20 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

[2] EXO 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. LEV 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord. 2CO 1:23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. 2CH 6:22 If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to make him swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house; 23 Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.

[3] DEU 6:13 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

[4] EXO 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. JER 5:7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses. MAT 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. JAM 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

[5] HEB 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 2CO 1:23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. ISA 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

[6] 1KI 8:31 If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house. NEH 13:25 And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. EZR 10:5 Then arose Ezra, and made the chief priests, the Levites, and all Israel, to swear that they should do according to this word. And they sware.

[7] EXO 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. JER 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

[8] GEN 24:2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: 3 And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell. 5 And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest? 6 And Abraham said unto him, Beware thou that thou bring not my son thither again. 8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again. 9 And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and sware to him concerning that matter.

[9] NUM 5:19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse. 21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. NEH 5:12 Then said they, We will restore them, and will require nothing of them; so will we do as thou sayest. Then I called the priests, and took an oath of them, that they should do according to this promise. EXO 22:7 If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double. 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour. 10 If a man deliver unto his neighbour an ass, or an ox, or a sheep, or any beast, to keep; and it die, or be hurt, or driven away, no man seeing it: 11 Then shall an oath of the Lord be between them both, that he hath not put his hand unto his neighbour's goods; and the owner of it shall accept thereof, and he shall not make it good.

[10] JER 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. PSA 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

[11] 1SA 25:22 So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 32 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: 33 And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. 34 For in very deed, as the Lord God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. PSA 15:4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.

[12] EZE 17:16 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely in the place where the king dwelleth that made him king, whose oath he despised, and whose covenant he brake, even with him in the midst of Babylon he shall die. 18 Seeing he despised the oath by breaking the covenant, when, lo, he had given his hand, and hath done all these things, he shall not escape. 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; As I live, surely mine oath that he hath despised, and my covenant that he hath broken, even it will I recompense upon his own head. JOS 9:18 And the children of Israel smote them not, because the princes of the congregation had sworn unto them by the Lord God of Israel. And all the congregation murmured against the princes. 19 But all the princes said unto all the congregation, We have sworn unto them by the Lord God of Israel: now therefore we may not touch them. 2SA 21:1 Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David inquired of the Lord. And the Lord answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

[13] ISA 19:21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it. ECC 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. 6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? PSA 61:8 So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows. 66:13 I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, 14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble.

[14] PSA 76:11 Vow, and pay unto the Lord your God: let all that be round about him bring presents unto him that ought to be feared. JER 44:25 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows. 26 Therefore hear ye the word of the Lord, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the Lord, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord God liveth.

[15] DEU 23:21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the Lord thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the Lord thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. 22 But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth. PSA 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High. GEN 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: 22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee. 1SA 1:11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O Lord of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head. PSA 66:13 I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, 14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. 132:2 How he sware unto the Lord, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob; 3 Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed; 4 I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, 5 Until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.

[16] ACT 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. 14 And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul. MAR 6:26 And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her. NUM 30:5 But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the Lord shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her. 8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the Lord shall forgive her. 12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the Lord shall forgive her. 13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.

[17] MAT 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. 1CO 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. EPH 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 1PE 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 1CO 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.