SBC Exodus Mandate

Discussion in 'Family Forum' started by BG, Mar 9, 2009.

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  1. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    I keep up with what happens in schools throughout the country (you will find this common with many home educators). I also have attended more than my own fair share of schools from one coast to the other and overseas. While no, not EVERY. SINGLE. school may be awful, the trend is such that government schools are out of the this family's picture frame.

    On unity, well it sounds like the SBC is calling for unity in this matter (though I get where you are coming from on this matter ;) however, the PB is a good place to pound out the whys and the which is better ideas :D )
  2. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    Exactly! (Maybe that should be a sticky somewhere)
  3. The Deeps

    The Deeps Puritan Board Freshman

    Just be engaged with your children wherever they are always showing them the way of truth by example. Pray for them. Prepare them to meet God don't become their God.

    I remember all the churches I went to in college as a youth evangelist.

    So many children dressed nice and pure, beautiful dresses, nice hair, knew the Bible, good grades, sang like angels... spiritually dead.
    Mom and Dad were like a Pseudo Holy Spirit to them.
    When they got to college watch out! you think public school kids are bad?
    When the cats are away the mice will play.
    Our children are free from righteousness just like the kids in the public schools.

    Again just be careful that you allow your children to be exposed to the world so they can feel the pull to wander just like all the other kids.

    It was the nasty little dirt eating, p0rnography watching, biblically ignorant, cussing, bastard children that i loved watch hear the gospel and receive the hope of Jesus. I remember Omaha Nebraska teaching 4th and 5th graders about Jesus who where sexually active!

    I am not saying all home schooling parents through controlling and sheltering ways are using home school as form of protection to keep their children from "the enemy"... but enough are that i am concerned.

    Just an observation....Many of the problems that i have seen in the homes where home schooled children being sheltered it seemed as if the mother was running the show and the dad was kind of apathetic about the whole thing. Has anyone else noticed this?:gpl:

    -----Added 3/12/2009 at 07:36:14 EST-----

  4. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    Though you follow up with not all are, your broadbrushing in the beginning of your post all too well gives away your feelings towards many homeschoolers. My guess is that you would take one look at me and just ASSUME that I'm one of them (girls wear skirts, I headcover...though my husband has a shaved head and a goatee ;) ). It's sad and humourous, because I get the exact opposite reaction by other people (*gasp!* they watch TV! She wears makeup and earrings! She actually knows what's in their bank account! Her husband asks her opinion!) :oops: There goes that's tree hugging liberal in me, dancing past in bare feet :D And yes, we've been harassed for such assumptions, even though IRL I pretty much keep my opinions to myself unless asked or it's brought up in a conversation. People that don't look anything like us were shocked that we consider the anabaptists round here to be liberal and these lovely ladies that don't even come close to representing that to be conservative (theology ;) ). However, we have our standards, have had them for over a decade, and have no intention to change, nor do we go around shoving it down everyone else's throats (PB being an exception as every topic seems to make it's yearly rounds on the debate table ;) psalmody, homeschooling, holidays, headcovering, alcohol, marijuana, etc).

    But MOST homeschooling families I know, do expose their children to the world, under their guidance. They don't see themselves as Gd or Holy Spirit to their children (heaven forbid). They actually WANT their children to THINK for themselves (another reason many homeschool ;) ) and to feel free to do so and free to pound out ideas within the safety of their home and understanding parents. Goodness, conversation is the main theme of our home.

    Now, on the issue of EXTREME Patriarchy, I would definitely agree with the last statement. WOMEN are wanting something. A husband that acts more masculine, takes more time with their family, protection they didn't have growing up, etc. Some like the idealism of it. Yes, those women are being the opposite of what they preach instead of COMPLEMENTING their husband (I'm a complementarian. My husband pushed me to it and likes me that way). Homeschooling was a mutual thing here. Something we researched for several years and decided before our children were officially "school age". During our research, it was a toss up between private and home education...government schooling never even entered the picture for us.
  5. Knoxienne

    Knoxienne Puritan Board Graduate

    "Just an observation....Many of the problems that i have seen in the homes where home schooled children being sheltered it seemed as if the mother was running the show and the dad was kind of apathetic about the whole thing. Has anyone else noticed this?"

    Absolutely - this is definitely a huge problem in homeschooling today. It has to be corrected. This is one of many areas where it's easy for men to abdicate and women to usurp without their even realizing it's happening. :um:
  6. The Deeps

    The Deeps Puritan Board Freshman

    I am not broad brushing I am throwing grey into a black and white issue for some.

    In your reality skew yes.

    That is judgmental and it proves my point exactly.

    If i am a single working mom with three kids home school is not an option and in fact the idea of it would be overwhelming to me. Do you know how many of those people attend my church? I was raised by one.
  7. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    A The beginning of your post is how many broadbrush us and you used it as a viable description.

    My reality is NOT skewed. I happen to be in regular contact with many homeschoolers, of various faiths, of various circumstances. You also don't know us and thus have no business stating that my "reality is skewed".

    My guess was based on the beginning of your post.

    My husband was raised by a single female, my siblings were raised by my grandparents, my cousin was raised by friends of the family, my mama was a single mother for a time, my sisters were also, my brother is a single father. My husband is blue collar and most of his coworkers have broken homes. My husband used to work homeless and crackhouse ministry in StL and can't get more down and out than that. Don't tell me what I know and don't know.

    Yes, I DO know single mothers that are homeschooling their children. It's not easy. I know more that would LIKE to homeschool their children or see their children in a good church school. If you've read my posts thoroughly, you will also note that I placed the blame for the lack of Christian education and alternatives for these families squarely in the lap of THE CHURCH. SOME churches actually DO go out of their way to make certain that these families can home educate or attend their church school...I have witnessed that happening as well.

    -----Added 3/12/2009 at 08:41:48 EST-----

    I apologise, I realised that this was YOUR experience where YOU lived for a time. It's not an accurate overview of homeschoolers in general.
  8. The Deeps

    The Deeps Puritan Board Freshman

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Psalm 10/14... ects

    Your reality skew is simply the lens in which you view the world or reality and yours and mine are fallible but Christ is not. Is your reality absolute truth? If your reality is skewed like mine is it is because of our own human condition. You live in a world that is different than mine. Your world is not my world (Oregon). Home school is held up as a standard by many Christians. Home school is not the standard. Christ is the standard. Christians need Christ and His church. See MANY Christians who cannot home school live in a different reality. We must keep the main thing the main thing. Don't bring people to your view of the world or standards bring them to the standards of Christ.

    It was the Elect in the public schools that brought me to the hope of Christ.
  9. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    One thing I have to say is that a good education in no way makes one a Christian. I have seen failures in the Homeschool industry... and yes it is an industry (lots of money to be made from it, so demonizing the Public education system is vital)... as well as in the Public school system. BTW, I do know demonization happens on both sides. A good education does make one a better Christian if God chooses to awaken a person. A good education also helps everyone (most of the time) be better citizens.

    I am having a problem with the broadbrush paint job that is being done here against the public educational system. There are bad things that happen in both industries. And the numbers of persecution are inflated in my opinion. As far as the decries of persecution go, I am not unsympathetic to it. I am just tired of hearing that it is the general rule. I am also tired of hearing that the general rule for the public school system has to be, "avoid it like the plague." I know a lot of personal godly achievements performed on both sides of the industry. There are a lot of good kids accomplishing good things on both sides of the isle.

    Just as someone noted that some Homeschool moms run the show and turn out bad apples because the Dad isn't as involved, (And I have mostly seen mothers running the Homeschool show btw) I have seen poor teachers in both the homeschool industry as well as the public school industry. Some of it has to do with the personality issue. Some of it has to do with the I want to protect my child from the world issue. And a lot of it has to do with an issue of apathy somewhere along the line. BTW, I know of one particular situation where one girl was lost when she went to College because she was so sheltered. And I have seen more boys sissified due to the homeschool environment. Thank God for Vision Forum and Doug Phillips. Boys are taught to be rough, rugged, and become men.

    I am making a plea here that the broadbrush be put away or I will seek to do something about it. I don't mind if you all want to tell the positives or of a few problems concerning the public school system. Just put the broad brush away.

    Thank You.... Mr. Norseman Moderator.
  10. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    This I can agree with.

    All except the last part. In my case, the Elect in public schools could do nothing for me and could say nothing to me. Their hands were always tied. They knew it and I knew it. But it was okay for girls to get hit and suspended if they defended themselves, teachers and principals to hit on highschool girls, get smacked by a teacher that disagreed with your religious views, etc. The Elect stood nearby wringing their hands, saying "we can't touch those teachers".

    I'm glad that you were blessed otherwise. However, when one has an option, I do believe that government schooling is on the bottom of the pile. Again, I place the fault of the lack of this option in the lap of the Church.
  11. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    It is your case.... No broad brushing here.

    Last warning.
  12. LadyFlynt

    LadyFlynt Puritan Board Doctor

    You are right. And I'll concede that I'm as biased as everyone else per my experience. :oops:

    -----Added 3/12/2009 at 09:08:01 EST-----

    Sorry, that wasn't my intent. He stated his experience and I was stating mine. We apparently both have had differing experiences in different schools. And perhaps it has coloured both of our views.

    I'm done, stick a fork in me :D
  13. Classical Presbyterian

    Classical Presbyterian Puritan Board Junior

    I've seen plenty of garbage in public schools and plenty of weird home schooled kids...

    We have chosen to school our kids at home, at least for now, but one image always floats into my mind from memory:
    It was my high school principle. He showed up early and was the last one to leave each day. He always wore a suit and walked the halls with authority, purpose and dignity. He instilled respect wherever he went. And do you know what we all knew about him and whispered in hushed tones of respect behind his back? "He's a Baptist Deacon!"

    One can find the elect in every sphere in my experience.
  14. Brian Withnell

    Brian Withnell Puritan Board Junior

    The only folk that don't pay property taxes are those that are homeless. Just because a person rents a home doesn't mean they aren't paying the taxes on the property; it just means they don't get the deduction for paying those taxes (somebody pays the taxes, and I'll guarantee the rent is reflective of those taxes).

    That is a shameful thing as well for our country ... the poorest pay the taxes of the rich, and the rich obtain the tax benefit. I don't begrudge those that are rich having what they have, but when we say that renters don't pay taxes it is just at the surface that they don't pay taxes. The only way renters would not be paying taxes is if rental property was untaxed.

    Regardless, the average of the property taxes paid (including the share paid through rents) would more than compensate private school teachers enough so that private schools could do better by their staff.
  15. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    For those of you that support Public Schooling, Do you think that it is alright for a Christian parent to send their Children to a private Muslim school? There would be a lot of advantages to a Muslim School: 1. no evolution 2. they would be against homosexuality 3. strong view on marriage 4. modest dress code 5. not to mention their great aviation program:D.....I think you get the point. What say ye?

    Just for the record, there is a dear woman at our church who is a public school teacher. She considers herself a missionary to her students even though she is not allowed to talk about Jesus or the Bible, she does disguise proverbs which she paraphrases and uses as character development in the classroom and hopes and prays no one figures out what she is doing. We love and pray for this woman even if we do not support PS. By the way, this woman homeschooled her 3 children, now that they are all grown up, she has gone back to teaching.
  16. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    Are you asking if it is alright for any Christian parents, in any place of the world, under any circumstances, to send their children to a private Muslim school? If so, you come close to using that broad brush that Randy already warned everyone about.

    If you are genuinely asking if anyone can think of a scenario where it would be the right thing for Christian parents to send their children to a private Muslim school, so be it. But maybe you should start a new thread.
  17. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    Steve and others,

    I believe this is a devisive issue and rightfully so. How christians disciple their children is a very important issue. The public school systems, the department of education, and the teachers union do not teach from a presupposition that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Also, since I would think you would agree there is no such thing as neutrality, Jesus said, "You are either with me or against me." The issue of Christians using PS is not likely to go away very soon. For those of you who would like scriptural proof that we should homeschool, I would look at Deuteronomy ch 6 for starters.

    I think a bigger question concerning this issue is this, Is scripture sufficient enough to tell us how we are to disciple our children? I say yes. A problem that I see among some is that they are consulting "the dead" on behalf of the living. Who cares what unregenerate men or society think about how christians should raise their children. Until christians realise that we are immersed in seculiar humanism and that it is all we know we are not going to respond correctly to these issues. I believe that christians have only one rule to direct us how we are to glorify God and disciple our children. When our presuppositions become biblical than our actions will follow. If you will permit me to use another scripture..."Blessed is the man (student) who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seats of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night." Just note a couple of things 1. We are not to walk in the counsel of those who hate God. 2. We are to meditate, not on the various pagan worldviews or scientific myths, but on the law of God.

    Public Schooling has not only taken a toll on our children, but also on the church. All of the following has crept into the church through the PS system: evolution, feminism, complementarianism, pragmatism, and a host of other things. The vain philosophies that are taught in our school systems today, will make it into our churches tomorrow.

    Ideas have consequences.

    For the record, whether you homeschool, private school, or public school, if you confess Christ, you are my brothers and sisters.
  18. The Deeps

    The Deeps Puritan Board Freshman

    How did Daniel fair in public schools? Praise God for light in darkness. I thank God for the children in our local public school(cesspit) that go to my church (redeemed cesspit). Pray for them.
  19. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    The purpose of my post was to ask those who use the PS if they would be opposed to christians in america sending their children to a muslim school. I am interested in their response.

    I don't think that I or anyone else has been painting with a broad brush. The department of education and the teachers union openly profess their animosity towards christianity. With that being said, I realise that their are many wonderful christians who teach in the PS system. I have friends that teach in the PS system. Nevertheless, they are not the leaders and they do not dictate policy.

    -----Added 3/13/2009 at 01:25:51 EST-----

    Hard cases make bad law. By the way, I understand that a few people have made a trip over Niagra Falls and lived, but I am not sure I would recommend it to anyone. :lol:

    Not to mention brother, I do not think Daniel had any choice in the matter. Maybe death was an option.
  20. The Deeps

    The Deeps Puritan Board Freshman

    If the Muslims take over our schools and country it might be because all the Christians have disengaged from the culture to purify themselves for heaven.
  21. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    "If the Muslims take over our schools and country it might be because all the Christians have disengaged from the culture to purify themselves for heaven. "

    Sarcasm, I like it.:)

    I am not sure about the whole disengage from the culture thing. I am postmill, I am seeking to have dominion over the culture. Using my children, not just as arrows, but in the words of V. Baucham, "Intercontinental ballistic missiles" of evangelism and entrepreneurialism. As far as purifying ourselves for heaven, I am not really sure about that either. One of the reasons that I homeschool is I need the extra time with my children (I am so selfish) so I can repent, ask forgiveness and start the whole process all over again. It turns out that my children have the misfortune of being born into a family where the father has a black heart and is constantly in the need of God's grace and forgiveness.
  22. The Deeps

    The Deeps Puritan Board Freshman

    Synergism is what Wesley believed so it would make sense to keep them from the Devil. The Devil does not initiate with the grace For us to receive salvation. The children would not be able to hear the effectual call of grace in order for the children to respond with faith if they are in a place a little better than the devil.

    A Monergists response... God calls I answer with the faith that he places in my heart. His phone line is connected to the public school system because they are sick and sick people seem to hear the physician.

    Do we learn these or are we these?
    Synergism (Arminianism) Keep them from evil faithlessness so they will know how to respond to Gods effectual call.

    Monergism... God called a guy like Paul (end of story)

    Synergism: Your hard work pays off... salvation.
    Monergism:Gods hard work pays off for Gods holy name and fame!

    Synergism: Earning the points and laying up treasure for your salvation.

    Synergism: This Wesleys Holiness club put Whitfield in bed for months. He couldn't do it!
    Its all about my personal holiness... and Gods too (for the Synergist).

    Monergism... Grace and faith are gifts from God. this means if God wants to save children he does wherever and whenever... I am afraid for those children that have saved themselves with piety and virtuous service to their parents.

    Voddie might be a monergist but why use Arminianism and borderline semi-pelagianism support his Exodus Mandate?
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2009
  23. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior


    I think the point of V.B.'s post was not to say that he agreed with his theology, he certainly does not, but was to simply point out that the issue of discipling children is not a new one. Not to mention, the majority of the SBC loves Wesley. It probably does not hurt his case that while their theology is at odds their conclusion (children should be discipled by christians) is the same.
  24. The Deeps

    The Deeps Puritan Board Freshman

    I appreciate all of you! I thank you for your thoughts!:cheers2:
    I just cannot forget my roots. God called me out of the honey bucket and that's all i know. He will continue to do the same for his Elect in the public schools.;)
  25. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    This is the kind of broad brush accusations that you are being kindly asked to refrain from. Regardless of your intention, it sounds like you are accusing every Christian PS parent, all over the world, in every situation, of...

    1) consulting the dead...
    2) walking in the counsel of those who hate God...
    3) meditating on pagan world views and scientific myths.

    Please refrain from such language.
  26. LawrenceU

    LawrenceU Puritan Board Doctor

    The Daniel situation is more like a homeschooler going to college than a youngster going through a public education system from the get go. He was probably 14 -17 years old when captured. He was already a young man. We are the ones who have extended childhood. His solid understanding of the word of God had prepared him for his tenure in the pagan world.
  27. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    Start a new thread.

    One of the reasons that many of us homeschool our children is because we despise the way in which the state education system mandates the way we raise our children. We despise this because our children's education is outside the state's sphere of God-given authority. Let us not become guilty of that thing we despise about the state. It is outside the church's sphere of God-given authority to mandate how parents educate their children.

    Some speak as though they think parents who send their children to PS should be subject to church discipline.
  28. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    I was homeschooled, and so was Ruben; so were many of our friends. I think the academics vary from family to family (or school system to school system) as do the 'other considerations'. Almost all of the children that I grew up with who were homeschooled have gone very far afield and are yet in their sins. Growing up, some of the public schooled kids were kinder and more straightforward -- not having learned the virtue of hypocrisy like the rest of us had in our more Christian systems -- and some of them have grown into very admirable adults. The Christian schooled kids were the most vicious honestly, and the ones I begged not to have to be around (since we were homeschooled we had to take advantage of every social function in order to 'socialize' with other children: which meant basically, that I learned to stop objecting when the Christian schooled and other homeschooled kids smoked on church property, or made out in the back of the church van). Now some of those people are among my nicest friends -- they homeschool their children.

    My experience is no doubt influenced by various factors and if I'd lived in a different area or we'd had different friends it might easily have been different: I reference it only as one person's very limited experience. But I do think that there are dangers with each of these 'systems'. Public schools vary from area to area but on the whole yes they are very secular and I oppose being forced to support a secular education system and would prefer to keep my child out of one. I actually though have a bigger problem with Christian schools in that I have seen that they offer the same temptations to children as public schools do, but the whole system gets a naive pass from parents who think a teacher's worldview is going to impact their child more than the 'worldview' of the child in the next row (in my experience of youth group etc: most adults pale into insignificance when one is with other children) -- and so parents don't try to warn and protect their children against these dangers as Christian parents of PS kids do -- as if children are somehow being kept out of the world because the textbook is published by a Christian company. Homeschool groups can be the same kind of thing. Still I have some wonderful friends who came out of all three systems. If we have children my first choice would be to homeschool (though I'm not sure I would be well enough for that: when we homeschooled our foster child, even though Ruben did the math and Bible, I relapsed into active mono); but I have seen enough to know that God can protect a child anywhere, and the world can get to a child anywhere: simply choosing to put one's child in a certain system of education does not equal parental neglect or the right kind of parental involvement. In the cases I have known where the public schooled children turned out admirably, the dad esp was an admirably wise and balanced parent, and was more biblically involved with the child than many dads are even in many homeschool families. Indeed I think that probably the character of the father and mother and the way in which they interact with their children have a more profound effect on the child's character than the mode of education; and it is simply not true to think that a wise and balanced parent, biblically interacting with their child, automatically homeschools. Of course without effectual grace nothing will protect a child from the world (and homeschooling is not an ordained means of grace though I have heard many promote it almost superstitiously as if it is).

    Sadly some of my friends homeschooled but the father turned out to be sexually abusing underage girls. I have also known cases of physical abuse in homeschooling families that make being slapped by a teacher, horrendous as that truly is (Colleen I can't imagine), much less life altering. Perhaps for these reasons my view of homeschooling simply can't be as unqualified as some expressed here. Of course these things can go on in any family. That is my point.
  29. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior


    In my post I did use the word "some". I thought that was enough to get me off the broad brush hook. Sorry about that if it was not sufficient. On point 1, I will concede the point. I would agree. On points 2 and 3 I don't know if those are so much a broad brush, as an unescapable fact for the students regardless of who the parents are.

    Some speak as though they think parents who send their children to PS should be subject to church discipline.[/QUOTE]


    You used the same word "some" as I did before, are you broad brushing?:lol:

    To everyone,

    I believe the jury is still out on homeschooling. It is difficult to judge a movement in the early stages. I think it will take another 20 years before we can accurately tell what the results are. If the early stages of this movement are any indication as to what the future holds, I for one am very excited. It will take awhile to get the kinks out.

    Since I started the thread, maybe I should be the one to try and end it. I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion/sharpening. I thought I would use my final post on this thread on a positive note. Whenever I ask older chrisitian sages about their children, without fail they always say the same two things:

    1. "Enjoy your children, while they are young, they grow up too fast!"
    2. "If I had it all to do over again, I would spend more time with my children."

    I think this is sound advice we can all agree on. Whatever side of this issue you come down on. My prayer for you is that you are successful in passing on a Godly heritage to the next generation. May your children and your childrens children be covenant keepers.

    The end and my last post on this thread....
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2009
  30. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    Thread closed at the request of Bill.
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