SBC Exodus Mandate

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Knoxienne

Puritan Board Graduate
Speaking on the topic of decadent fashions, students with hair dyed (colors which are normally only seen on a tropical fish), teenage girls that dress like hookers (wearing less than what a silk worm could knock out on his lunch break), tattoos and body piercings (that suggest they are consorting with the Marquis de Sad), or the fruit of the PS system.

R.J. Rushdoony said the following, "All too many churchmen view the undisciplined and amoral products of statist education as evidences of the failures of these schools. On the contrary, they are evidences of their success." :amen:

**quote from Bruce Shortt's book, The Harsh Truth About Public Schools

They produced what they set out to produce, seculiar humanists.
It really is a shame that the American Church has flat out ignored what R.J. Rushdoony was preaching 40 years ago. The man was nearly 100% right in forecasting what would become of the Church.
:amen:
 

mvdm

Puritan Board Junior
AMEN....

Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!

My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.
I agree it makes no sense-- unless one holds to a radical two kingdom view. Here is a Radical 2k-er fellow who uses Machen's childhood education experience as an argument to denigrate Christian education:

Who?s Your Daddy? The Confessional Outhouse
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
AMEN....

Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!

My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.
A similar mentality was found in the "New Evangelicals" involved with Billy Graham's crusades, Fuller Seminary, Christianity Today, etc. I think it's clear by now who got influenced more by the cooperation with unbelief. I know this is off topic, but in my opinion this episode, coupled with the disaster of the independent fundamentalist movement, was the greatest tragedy of the church in the 20th century in the USA and the UK to some extent as well.
 

Classical Presbyterian

Puritan Board Junior
AMEN....

Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!

My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.
I agree it makes no sense-- unless one holds to a radical two kingdom view. Here is a Radical 2k-er fellow who uses Machen's childhood education experience as an argument to denigrate Christian education:

Who?s Your Daddy? The Confessional Outhouse
I read that post. What a fool! The schools in Machen's day actually read the classics and studied history. That was the pre-revisionist era! The writer is utterly clueless about the state of modern "edumification" in this State of ours...
:soapbox:
 

LawrenceU

Puritan Board Doctor
AMEN....

Makes no sense to try to live for God and then daily send your children down into Egypt!

My pet peeve is naive parents who speak of their children becoming "little missionaries" to their secular public schools. Usually the only livesbeing "reached" and "changed" are these kids who fall away from the teachings of their parents.
I agree it makes no sense-- unless one holds to a radical two kingdom view. Here is a Radical 2k-er fellow who uses Machen's childhood education experience as an argument to denigrate Christian education:

Who?s Your Daddy? The Confessional Outhouse

Wow! That fellow is taking an apple and making it an orange. Machen's scholastic education was as similar to what takes place in the vast majority of schools (public, private, and 'Christian) today as is the atmosphere of earth and the moon.
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
[rant on]
The R2kers are worse than many if not most of the worst dispensationalists in my opinion with regard to head in the sand thought and behavior and following the world's dictates in their everyday lives. To give one (rather mild) example, in my opinion The Insufficiency of Scripture is probably one of the worst articles I've ever read by any purported evangelical, much less a Reformed one. (I'm far from a theonomist or a recon (which is what the article was aimed at) and most of you would probably categorize me as a Dispensational.) Phil Johnson thinks it was either the worst or 2nd worst article to ever appear in Modern Reformation. (I wonder what the rival would be?)

Basically their position if held to consistently it comes down to--Got a problem? Take a pill. Go see Dr. Freud since of course "all truth is God's truth." The Bible says the earth was created in 6 days? Well science ("God's truth" again) says otherwise, so we gotta do a rethink. We have "Word" and Sacrament here and nothing more. The church exists between the call to worship and the benediction and has little or no relevance otherwise except perhaps behind the closed doors of the homes of members of the covenant community.

R2k also has subtle hyper-Calvinist tendencies given the reluctance to apply God's law outside of the covenant community. (If the law doesn't apply, then how is the Gospel Good News?) I know that I am painting with a broad brush here and some in that camp would cry foul at it, but one doesn't have to look hard to find examples of all of the above, as well as those of that mentality who are pushing for gay marriage, have no problem with state funded embryonic stem cell research, etc.

If we followed their dictates (including throwing the First Great Awakening under the bus) we would look like Europe now. But dhimmitude would seem to fit many of them quite well.

Well, I think I'll go back to lurk mode at this point. Been spending too much time on here. Maybe I'll go do some of that Bible beating that the R2kers so abhor.

[/rant off]
 
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Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
ChrisPoe: I would love to hear you rant more about Indy Fundies. How do the Sovereign Grace Baptists fit into this Indy Fundy disaster? What can be done for folks like me who are neck deep in Undy Fundy churches?

-----Added 3/10/2009 at 12:07:46 EST-----

Oops, I meant Indy Fundies...but it is funny so I will leave it as is...LOL.
 

LadyFlynt

Puritan Board Doctor
The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
ChrisPoe: I would love to hear you rant more about Indy Fundies. How do the Sovereign Grace Baptists fit into this Indy Fundy disaster? What can be done for folks like me who are neck deep in Undy Fundy churches?

-----Added 3/10/2009 at 12:07:46 EST-----

Oops, I meant Indy Fundies...but it is funny so I will leave it as is...LOL.
Pergy,

I've been giving the issue of fundamentalism some thought. Here are some of my thoughts, although I don't know how pertinent they really are to your question.

There are others here who can give you better information who have been on the "inside" of the fundamentalist movement. I believe Ruben has a fundamentalist background as do several others here. I've only encountered it on the internet. :lol:

At this point I view it as largely a Northern movement (which I think was George Marsden's thesis) with regard to organization, etc. Of course BJU and PCC and some other schools in the South would be an exception. But I say Northern because the problems in the Northern mainline churches in the early 20th century were much more pronounced than in the South, and so a lot more "fundamentalists" came out at that time, whereas conservatives tended to stay in the PCUS and SBC, although exceptions like J. Frank Norris could certainly be named.

I am actually not opposed to fundamentalism in principle. Early on Machen was considered a fundamentalist and men like Warfield had work published in the Fundamentals series. It basically meant standing up for the authority of the Bible against modernism, etc. Of course it has now come to mean something else entirely. But I do think the principle of separation from error is sound.

Sovereign Grace Baptists (Pergy and I aren't referring to Mahaney's organization) are separatists too to a large degree as most of them are independent. (Some are SBC but basically in name only, and those are typically cases in which the church isn't as Calvinistic as the pastor.) But they aren't part of the fundy movement. As we will see, the issue of "second degree separation" is where the rubber really meets the road as far as the fundamentalist movement is concerned. A lot of fundamentalists don't seem to be able to conceive of a man or a church that is independent (i.e. not part of their movement) that isn't compromised in some way.

Many Sovereign Grace churches are amil, but some are premil. (Since I am premil, I can't help you with trying to reform the national church unless maybe they've embraced some kind of extreme view or give the subject too much emphasis, as many of course do.)

Most here on the board are members of churches that are separatist to some degree, including the PCA, OPC, URCNA, FIRE, ARBCA, etc. The Free Presbyterian church (Paisley) that a few here from time to time have been involved with is basically fundamentalist and has ties with the fundamentalist movement.

However, the indy fundy movement has been dominated by a bunch of little popes excommunicating each other in newsletters, etc. typically without any due process. They also harp on minor and sometimes questionable issues or things indifferent and typically are not fundamental enough when it comes to actually defending the fundamentals. Instead, much of the focus is on whether we should separate from Albert Mohler because he isn't separated from Billy Graham (who cooperated with liberals and Rome,) or separate from John MacArthur because he isn't separated from Albert Mohler who isn't separated from Billy Graham. Especially after the split with the "New Evangelicals" in the middle of the 20th Century, serious scholarship for the most part seems to have disappeared from the movement. King James Onlyism of course is prominent among many IFB's as well.

Calvinism is making inroads into some Fundamentalist circles too. I like much of what I see from younger fundamentalists at sites like Sharper Iron, although I usually only give it the occasional passing glance. But I don't hesitate to say that I have more confidence in some of the "young fundamentalists" (many of whom are imbibing Carson, Piper, Dever, etc.) than I do in the "young evangelicals" who are often on the verge of doctrinal indifference at best, if not outright heresy and apostasy. The chief "heresy" of some of the younger fundys seems to be questioning aspects of the movement itself, such as legalism and maybe questions about separation in some instances.

There are some bright spots among fundamentalist institutions as well, like Detroit Baptist Seminary and Central Baptist Seminary, although they are not representative of the movement as a whole. (I'm sure some in the movement probably think they are compromised because they are not KJVO, etc.) I read something from Dr. Kevin Bauder, President of Central Baptist Seminary the other day that basically argued for what amounts to the Regulative Principle of Worship. Although most here will of course disagree with some aspects of their doctrinal position, I've seen some excellent articles in the Detroit Baptist Seminary journal. I can't swallow their ideas about separation whole, but I do think we ought to give credit where credit is due.

Bob Jones University for the most part seems to have always had an excellent academic reputation and has periodically had Calvinist faculty. It's just that there has always been some...baggage that went along with attending what was once proclaimed to be "The World's Most Unusual University."

There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.

-----Added 3/10/2009 at 01:24:21 EST-----

Could be a name for a whole new line of clothing.
Undy Fundy. Is that a new fundy Mormon sect?
 

LadyFlynt

Puritan Board Doctor
ChrisPoe: I would love to hear you rant more about Indy Fundies. How do the Sovereign Grace Baptists fit into this Indy Fundy disaster? What can be done for folks like me who are neck deep in Undy Fundy churches?

-----Added 3/10/2009 at 12:07:46 EST-----

Oops, I meant Indy Fundies...but it is funny so I will leave it as is...LOL.
Pergy,

I've been giving the issue of fundamentalism some thought. Here are some of my thoughts, although I don't know how pertinent they really are to your question.

There are others here who can give you better information who have been on the "inside" of the fundamentalist movement. I believe Ruben has a fundamentalist background as do several others here. I've only encountered it on the internet. :lol:

At this point I view it as largely a Northern movement (which I think was George Marsden's thesis) with regard to organization, etc. Of course BJU and PCC and some other schools in the South would be an exception. But I say Northern because the problems in the Northern mainline churches in the early 20th century were much more pronounced than in the South, and so a lot more "fundamentalists" came out at that time, whereas conservatives tended to stay in the PCUS and SBC, although exceptions like J. Frank Norris could certainly be named.

I am actually not opposed to fundamentalism in principle. Early on Machen was considered a fundamentalist and men like Warfield had work published in the Fundamentals series. It basically meant standing up for the authority of the Bible against modernism, etc. Of course it has now come to mean something else entirely. But I do think the principle of separation from error is sound.

Sovereign Grace Baptists (Pergy and I aren't referring to Mahaney's organization) are separatists too to a large degree as most of them are independent. (Some are SBC but basically in name only, and those are typically cases in which the church isn't as Calvinistic as the pastor.) But they aren't part of the fundy movement. As we will see, the issue of "second degree separation" is where the rubber really meets the road as far as the fundamentalist movement is concerned. A lot of fundamentalists don't seem to be able to conceive of a man or a church that is independent (i.e. not part of their movement) that isn't compromised in some way.

Many Sovereign Grace churches are amil, but some are premil. (Since I am premil, I can't help you with trying to reform the national church unless maybe they've embraced some kind of extreme view or give the subject too much emphasis, as many of course do.)

Most here on the board are members of churches that are separatist to some degree, including the PCA, OPC, URCNA, FIRE, ARBCA, etc. The Free Presbyterian church (Paisley) that a few here from time to time have been involved with is basically fundamentalist and has ties with the fundamentalist movement.

However, the indy fundy movement has been dominated by a bunch of little popes excommunicating each other in newsletters, etc. typically without any due process. They also harp on minor and sometimes questionable issues or things indifferent and typically are not fundamental enough when it comes to actually defending the fundamentals. Instead, much of the focus is on whether we should separate from Albert Mohler because he isn't separated from Billy Graham (who cooperated with liberals and Rome,) or separate from John MacArthur because he isn't separated from Albert Mohler who isn't separated from Billy Graham. Especially after the split with the "New Evangelicals" in the middle of the 20th Century, serious scholarship for the most part seems to have disappeared from the movement. King James Onlyism of course is prominent among many IFB's as well.

Calvinism is making inroads into some Fundamentalist circles too. I like much of what I see from younger fundamentalists at sites like Sharper Iron, although I usually only give it the occasional passing glance. But I don't hesitate to say that I have more confidence in some of the "young fundamentalists" (many of whom are imbibing Carson, Piper, Dever, etc.) than I do in the "young evangelicals" who are often on the verge of doctrinal indifference at best, if not outright heresy and apostasy. The chief "heresy" of some of the younger fundys seems to be questioning aspects of the movement itself, such as legalism and maybe questions about separation in some instances.

There are some bright spots among fundamentalist institutions as well, like Detroit Baptist Seminary and Central Baptist Seminary, although they are not representative of the movement as a whole. (I'm sure some in the movement probably think they are compromised because they are not KJVO, etc.) I read something from Dr. Kevin Bauder, President of Central Baptist Seminary the other day that basically argued for what amounts to the Regulative Principle of Worship. Although most here will of course disagree with some aspects of their doctrinal position, I've seen some excellent articles in the Detroit Baptist Seminary journal. I can't swallow their ideas about separation whole, but I do think we ought to give credit where credit is due.

Bob Jones University for the most part seems to have always had an excellent academic reputation and has periodically had Calvinist faculty. It's just that there has always been some...baggage that went along with attending what was once proclaimed to be "The World's Most Unusual University."

There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.

-----Added 3/10/2009 at 01:24:21 EST-----

Could be a name for a whole new line of clothing.
Undy Fundy. Is that a new fundy Mormon sect?
No, it's what they wear ;) "Got your Fundy Undies on?"
 

The Deeps

Puritan Board Freshman
Will our problems be solved in separating ourselves from the public schools?
How many of Gods elect are in your public school?

I am home schooling my children for a completely different reason than some i guess.

I want my kids to have a good education.

What is the purpose of educating our children?
What is the purpose of glorifying God in this dark world?

Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?
 

SolaScriptura

Puritanboard Snowflake
Will our problems be solved in separating ourselves from the public schools?
How many of Gods elect are in your public school?

I am home schooling my children for a completely different reason than some i guess.

I want my kids to have a good education.

What is the purpose of educating our children?
What is the purpose of glorifying God in this dark world?

Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?

I too want my children to have the best education possible... and I think that homeschooling provides my children with the best available context in which that desire can be realized.

Regarding separation... it isn't a matter of taking our children out of the "godless" environment so as to keep them from being exposed to the real world, per se... The issue is that at their tender age they do not yet have the tools and resources with which to interpret the godlessness to which they're exposed, both in the examples of their teachers and peers and in the formal indoctrination program, er, I mean "educational curriculum," to which they're subjected. They don't at that young age have the tools to properly respond to the lies and deceit in which they're immersed full-time, 5 days a week.

You don't throw a young Soldier - or Marine! - into combat without completing his training first. Why then do we do that with our children when the war is of greater consequence than ANYTHING our military could possibly face?
 

LawrenceU

Puritan Board Doctor
Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?
Brother, I hear what you are saying, but where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries? Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.
 

the particular baptist

Puritan Board Freshman
A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches?
I have close friends that are public school (high school) teachers and still educate their children at home.
For some reason that post struck me as funny. It made me think of a Ford dealership owner who drives a Chevrolet.
Well, theyre not militant state educators. They treat it like a job, albeit a flexible one, that allows them more time for their first priority, making disciples of Christ out of their sons and daughters.
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.

I registered but cannot find them.
It's still set up like a "store" with checkout, etc. but everything is now free, apparently. With the massive amount of material on there, it does take some time to find your way around. I've only scratched the surface so far.

To find the 2005 message, once logged in, click:

Resources-->Shepherd's Conference-->Audio Downloads-->2005-->Seminar Sessions. Dead Right: The Failure of Fundamentalism by Phil Johnson is on the second page. Follow the same procedure to find the follow up message of the same title from 2006.

Once you select your messages and "check out" they are held in "Media Downloads" for you to download at your leisure. This really helps if you are selecting a large number of messages for future reference and don't necessarily want to download them all right now. It keeps you from having to search for them again.
 

The Deeps

Puritan Board Freshman
I am not as worried about the children as I am the parents who think that the government is the problem. What about Noah's children there where no Obamas or Bushes to worried about then.

To many parents are looking for someone to believe they don't know how to think just believe.

If we are not careful we can find ourselves following "Christian leaders" and swallowing their pills the same way many are following the government and swallowing it's pill.

Teach people to think about what they believe not believe what they think.

I was raised in a public school praise God I was his elect and NO MAN could take me from his hand. How did I hear the Gospel in public school?

You guys need to be careful that's all i am saying. Things are simply not as simple as they sound when reading idealist ideas in both camps "Christian" and "non-Christian"
 

KMK

Administrator
Staff member
The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).
How about vouchers!
 

SolaScriptura

Puritanboard Snowflake
I am not as worried about the children as I am the parents who think that the government is the problem. What about Noah's children there where no Obamas or Bushes to worried about then.
People will be sinners until the Lord returns. We can't blame the government for the presence of sin in our children.

However, we CAN label the government as a problem when it propigates and enforces an agenda of godless secular humanism based upon the philosophical principles of the likes of Dewey. The government CAN be seen as the problem when parents' rights are ripped away and placed in the hands of state educators.

You're right, there are some homeschooling parents who don't think. But far more of the non-thinking Christian parents are sending their kids off to state schools. :2cents:
 

Skyler

Puritan Board Graduate
The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).
How about vouchers!
That works great when the economy's not in the hole and you have someone who can afford to cover those vouchers.
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
My boys are all in the Public school system. It is the one I was raised in. I am worried about what they learn. So I teach them the truth. They have done well against the tied of evolutionistic humanism. And the kids around them are doing pretty good. I have some well rounded good kids. I know there are people on this board who will vouch for what I say. And just as a personal side note, I like the extra activities that the school provides such as sports.
 

BG

Puritan Board Junior
I would like to see the GOV allow those who do not use the public school system to be free from property tax.
 

Knoxienne

Puritan Board Graduate

The Deeps

Puritan Board Freshman
:soapbox:
After reading the link I see Voddie quotes Wesley here and wesleys overly Kierkegaardian existential worldview shine through.

Does anyone else see this? Or am I nuts? (don’t answer that):p

Let it be remembered, that I do not speak to the wild, giddy, thoughtless world, but to those that fear God. I ask, then, for what end do you send you children to school? “Why, that they may be fit to live in the world.” In which world do you mean, — this or the next? Perhaps you thought of this world only; and had forgot that there is a world to come; yea, and one that will last for ever! Pray take this into your account, and send them to such masters as will keep It always before their eyes. Otherwise, to send them to school (permit me to speak plainly) is little better than sending them to the devil. At all events, then, send your boys, if you have any concern for their souls, not to any of the large public schools, (for they are nurseries of all manner of wickedness,) but private school, kept by some pious man, who endeavours to instruct a small number of children in religion and learning together.
Voddie is using Arminian reasoning to back his reasoning for separation.
Does this argument of making school teachers and the world as the devil really fly?
Is my Gun the devil when it kills someone?:hunter:
Is the beer the problem with the Alcoholic? :cheers2:
Is it our Holiness or Gods Holiness that we should proclaim and uphold?
This is Arminianism and the end of these ideas are going to lead to monasticism or incredible pious arrogance.

Does our righteousness come by fiat?:think:

We are clothed in righteousness in this world already prepared in Christ to engage in this world not to prepare with pious works for the next world. I am not trying to earn points in this world. This world is not my selfish workplace where I am the craftsman and God will check my work.
We as parents are not protecting our children from the world but from their own little hearts! (and protect them from mom and dad’s depravity also)
God has done the work in me and the world needs to see Him in me. The Elect in the schools need parents take a stand not run away from the world and form Arminian monastic like colonies. Let’s be careful who we follow.
I am carefully watching Voddie before I follow. I hope he sees that many SBC are doing the same… trying to be careful and modest in their reactions to this present evil world.
 
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the particular baptist

Puritan Board Freshman
Able, sounds like you have a beef with Voddie personally, i'm not sure, just a vibe.

There is no way I can be persuaded to deliver my children into the sewer of iniquity public schools have become.
 

coramdeo

Puritan Board Sophomore
Thankfully, my children have past those years and have turned out well in spite of public school. God is good. Our city is blessed to have a reformed church that has produced an outstanding private school teaching in a "Classical Education " format. They learn latin and can read and discuss Agustine before the graduate. I hope my new grandaughter can go there when she is ready for school.
 
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