SBC and Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by SolaSaint, May 31, 2012.

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  1. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Puritan Board Sophomore

    Please read the new document from a few SBC pastors:

    An Introduction to

    feel free to comment. Someone on the Baptistboard posted James White's facebook comment on this--I look forward to the next Dividing Line, I'm sure he will have a lot to say on this. I would love to hear what any SBCers in here feel about this?
     
  2. JohnGill

    JohnGill Puritan Board Senior

    Do the Founders group have a response out to this yet?

    Since the SBC was started by Calvinists, then I would say non-calvinists are not traditional SBCs but are instead pushing forth a new doctrine.
     
  3. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Puritan Board Sophomore

    Founders Ministries Blog: A Statement of Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation, Part 2

    Ascol's commentary on the document is right on as far as I'm concerned. He levels the same concern I have about the so-called agenda or plot of New Calvinists to push their views upon the SBC. Seems the powers that be at the SBC need to be a little more clear on who has come along and demanded the SBC follow Calvinistic doctrines over what is in place.

    I guess if anything this will get many to research and find out the DOG are biblical. I hope!
     
  4. Fly Caster

    Fly Caster Puritan Board Sophomore

    I'm saddened by this but not surprised. I came to the PCA from the SBC about 10 years ago. My former pastor's name is on the list of signatures. Others on it spoke at the church, and another is a local pastor whose church I have visited.

    I won't say that what I have experienced from these men represent the whole, but I will say that I could post things here that I saw and heard that would hardly be believed- both doctrine and practice a sordid mess.

    Praying for the SBC. I don't say these things with pride of where I'm come from to where I am, as I'm painfully aware that there are goings-on of a different sort that require deep prayers of concern in my own denomination as well.
     
  5. Jake

    Jake Puritan Board Junior

    Notice how many signatures from Truett-McConnell College. The SBC church I am a member of but no longer attend is a big supporter of that school, including a minister on the board. Definitely the most synergistic SBC school I know of.
     
  6. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    I have never been in a SBC church. What is so great about the SBC that everyone wants to be a part of it?
     
  7. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Potlucks.
     
  8. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    :lol:

    BTW, your new avatar is a crack-up, Andrew. You could be on the cover of the next WOW Worship album.
     
  9. Constantlyreforming

    Constantlyreforming Puritan Board Sophomore

    wow. that was a discouraging document to read.
     
  10. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Thanks, that has always been my dream. I've also been writing love songs that I can add "Jesus" and "hallelujah" into so that I can at least be a CCM one-hit wonder.

    Anyway. The Calvinistic SBC churches I am familiar with (such as my own church) desire to remain a part of the SBC because it helps us work together with like-minded churches for the sake of the Gospel. Despite some vocal Arminians in the SBC, and even real opposition in some local associations that are subsets of the SBC, there are benefits to being in the SBC, especially considering the fact that Calvinism is a growing force in our association, thus increasing our overall like-mindedness; however vocal the Arminians may be, I really do think we are returning to our theological roots in one degree or another.
     
  11. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    I noticed that the Caner brothers signed it.
     
  12. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    It's amazing that anyone would still let them sign a Christian document. C'est le vie.
     
  13. Bethel

    Bethel Puritan Board Freshman

    When the SBC is the strongest reformed church in town, you have to make the best choice with the options given. We also have a PCUSA and PCA church in our city. However, the local PCA church will not take a stance on creation (IMO--because of their close tie with Baylor), and therefore, have a sub-standard view of the Westminster Confessions. The lack of conviction for a literal 6-day creation was a deal-breaker for us; we could never consider joining that church.

    We love our current SBC and note that the reformed leaders take their SBC tie very lightly.

    I found that article very discouraging. Regardless of the denomination, I think it reflects what many "Christians" believe today. I still can't get past this sentence:

    We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved.

    It floors me every time I read it.
     
  14. Fly Caster

    Fly Caster Puritan Board Sophomore

    IOW, Romans 9:16 got it wrong and it IS of him who wills and not of God who shows mercy.
     
  15. Bill The Baptist

    Bill The Baptist Puritan Board Senior

    Despite this document, the SBC is changing. There is a reformation going on, even if some people are unaware of it or do not like it. Within 20 years, I believe that Dispensationalism and anti-Calvinism will decline to the point that they are no longer a serious force within the SBC.
     
  16. jwright82

    jwright82 Puritan Board Senior

    Here is a good book on the SBC, I recomend it to anyone who has high hopes for the conservative direction and vision it has. I pray for my brothers and sisters in the SBC that they should keep fighting the good fight as they always have.
    Amazon.com: Southern Baptist Identity: An Evangelical Denomination Faces the Future (9781433506796): David S. Dockery, R. Albert Mohler Jr., R. Stanton Norman, Gregory A. Wills, Timothy George, Russell D. Moore, Paige Patterson, Daniel L. Akin, Richa


    Here is a book on Calvinism in the SBC, it is a collection of essays from different authors from both sides.
    Calvinism -*A Southern Baptist Dialogue*by Brad J. Waggoner and E. Ray Clendenen* || B&H Academic
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
  17. Edward

    Edward Puritan Board Doctor

    Are those held in the food court near the Starbucks, or would it be in the restaurant?
     
  18. reaganmarsh

    reaganmarsh Puritan Board Senior

    I have had a couple of church members ask me about this already.

    I am hopeful that the vitriol being spewed in the blogosphere will subside, and that sound exegesis will prevail. I would love to think that the SBC might undergo a reformation. I will be happy, however, for the SBC not to start issuing "Kick out the Calvinists"-type calls.

    In this month's "Christian Index" (the Georgia State Baptist Convention's monthly newspaper), there was a full-page article on how regeneration does not precede faith, and it highlighted a fairly prominent SBC pastor from Mississippi who is going to introduce a resolution at this year's Convention on how churches should be confindent in using the Sinner's Prayer. Basically that means that we'll go on the record as a denomination affirming that people should "ask Jesus into your heart."

    I hope that this whole business doesn't get ugly. It certainly has the hotheads in the right places for it to do so, and quickly...and it seems that the Great Commission Resurgence effort is being set aside...not to mention that they're going beyond the BFM 2000.

    However I must say that I am incredibly thankful for Tom Ascol's gracious and irenic interations with the document. He is setting the pace for the reformed side of the house, and I pray that we follow suit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  19. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    Pastor Marsh,
    I believe that the stage is set for a split in the SBC similar to the Conservative/"Moderate" split in the late '80s. The Arminians may have the numbers as far as "membership" goes but the political clout rests with the Calvinists.
     
  20. nicnap

    nicnap Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Most want to be a part of it because of the cooperative program. The SBC is able to send out tons of missionaries because they all pool their money in the CP. The fact that missionaries are denominationally supported is a big encouragement to the smaller churches who cannot send missionaries out on their own--so, they contribute their money and know that it is helping send out workers into the field. At least that was the reasoning by a couple churches when I was an SBC pastor.
     
  21. reaganmarsh

    reaganmarsh Puritan Board Senior

    Bob,

    I confess that I've thought the same things lately, but when the GCR came into the picture, there were signatories from both camps. Things had appeared to be moving forward. It seemed that we were going to be able to spend our energies in working together for Christ's Kingdom, not to advance misguided denominational goals.

    However, as I stated previously, I am hoping and praying that sound exegesis and cooler heads will prevail. God is sovereign in this. I'm not afraid of a split, though I always long to see brothers dwell together in unity, and there has been significant mudslinging on both sides already; my concern is that the glory of God not be tarnished in the eyes of a watching world amidst our political posturing.
     
  22. MarieP

    MarieP Puritan Board Senior

    Not certain that's an issue....most of them can't be found anyway!
     
  23. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    This was no surprise to me. I would seem these folks have one foot in Pelagius's yard and one in Wesley's. "We deny that Adam’s sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person’s free will or rendered any person guilty before he has personally sinned....." Scary.......
     
  24. davenporter

    davenporter Puritan Board Freshman

    Is denial of original sin typical of Arminian Baptists? I know that the Arminians at my church do believe in original sin.
     
  25. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    I would say, typically, you get nonsense like this from the laity. This was from more of the leadership. The answer to your question would depend on who you're talking to in a particular situation. Most Arminians would affirm Original Sin (with a more "gutted" definition), then go on to articulate a more Pelagian/Weslyian hybrid, just like the article revealed.
     
  26. JohnGill

    JohnGill Puritan Board Senior

    In IFBx churches I attended they deny the Doctrine of Original Sin, but affirm what they call the doctrine of original sin. Their doctrine is either one starts out pure or that original sin does not make one unable and unwilling to respond to the gospel call.
     
  27. reaganmarsh

    reaganmarsh Puritan Board Senior

    Just an update on the issue: Roger Olson, a self-confessed Classical Arminian, has stated that the document is more semi-Pelagian than Arminian. See here.

    I had thought this myself. Perhaps God will use such a statement as Olson's to awaken the signatories to how much biblical turf they've just ceded to Pelagius and Finney. My prayer is that God will be glorified through this debate, and that the true gospel of his grace will be clarified for the SBC.
     
  28. MightyManfred

    MightyManfred Puritan Board Freshman

    One of my elders mentioned this to me this past Sunday. I read the document open-mouthed - seeing Pelagian and Arminian doctrines firmly embraced. And seeing the name of the former "Senior Pastor" of my previous church as a signatory - that part did NOT surprise me. I do thank the Lord for those such as Tom Ascol and Voddie Baucham who can present the biblical case for the doctrines of grace with much grace and no compromise.
     
  29. alb1

    alb1 Puritan Board Freshman

    The SBC is an alliance of "like minded" churches working in "friendly" cooperation under the heading of Southern Baptists. "Like minded" included both Calvinists and those with differing beliefs as long as the Calvinists were a tiny, silent minority. Now that the numbers of Calvinist seminary grads has increased significantly and the Calvinists are very vocal in the denomination (though still a minority), the "like mindedness" is questionable. It is very understandable since the very character of God is at the heart of the debate.

    An attempt was made with the GCR to give both sides something they could truly be "like minded" about. Unfortunately human nature is continually going against the "friendly" cooperation needed for the SBC to carry this out. It's difficult to be "friendly" with those you believe are not "like minded" and detrimental to your cause.

    Being a former Southern Baptist (of the non Calvinist variety), and knowing firsthand the nature of man, I can't see this relationship ending anywhere but in the formation of two different denominations at some point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  30. Caleb Phillips

    Caleb Phillips Puritan Board Freshman

    Well, Al Mohler responded to the controversy this morning. I just wish that Dr. Mohler would have been a bit more firm & reminded his readers that Semi-Pelagianism isn't just a view "that virtually all Southern Baptists have denied," but also was condemned as a heresy at the Council of Orange (529 AD).

    AlbertMohler.com – Southern Baptists and Salvation: It’s Time to Talk
     
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