Saved due to mere fear of hell?

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Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
In John Piper's book Let the Nations be Glad, in chapter 6, Piper makes the case that someone cannot be saved based upon simply a fear of punishment in hell.

I had someone dispute this by saying the following:

"Is not salvation simply an acknowledgement of guilt before God and a taking of refuge within the provision of Christ’s atonement on the cross? Does someone need to desire the joys of knowing Christ before they can be saved? Granted, knowing Christ is an immeasurably wonderful thing, but the idea of being “saved” is being “saved” from a certain catastrophe. The wisdom of Proverbs even states that “the beginning of wisdom is fear of God” (Prov 9:10)."

How would you answer him?

I would probably agree with Piper. If one is saved from a disaster by the death of another, I think I'd love and be thankful for the one who saved me. So that Love for the Savior is present. Fear of hell could motivate one to do certain things, but fear cannot generate love, can it? The demons know they will be punished and they fear their fate, and yet they are unregenerate.

I suppose I could also point out this person's use of the word "saved" - salvation is the whole process of justification and sanctification throughout one's life. Maybe this person is thinking of the Thief on the Cross, who appeared to believe out of mere fear?
 
Pergamum said:
In John Piper's book Let the Nations be Glad, in chapter 6, Piper makes the case that someone cannot be saved based upon simply a fear of punishment in hell.

I had someone dispute this by saying the following:

"Is not salvation simply an acknowledgement of guilt before God and a taking of refuge within the provision of Christ’s atonement on the cross? Does someone need to desire the joys of knowing Christ before they can be saved? Granted, knowing Christ is an immeasurably wonderful thing, but the idea of being “saved” is being “saved” from a certain catastrophe. The wisdom of Proverbs even states that “the beginning of wisdom is fear of God” (Prov 9:10)."

How would you answer him?

I would probably agree with Piper. If one is saved from a disaster by the death of another, I think I'd love and be thankful for the one who saved me. So that Love for the Savior is present. Fear of hell could motivate one to do certain things, but fear cannot generate love, can it? The demons know they will be punished and they fear their fate, and yet they are unregenerate.

I suppose I could also point out this person's use of the word "saved" - salvation is the whole process of justification and sanctification throughout one's life. Maybe this person is thinking of the Thief on the Cross, who appeared to believe out of mere fear?
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I would describe my first "step" in salvation was a fear of Hell. I was 17, living life in the fast lane, and found myself going to youth groups because it was something to do and my friends were going. Revelation 21 was the topic and I was scared out of my mind for the first time. I had heard plenty of times before about Hell and Christ being the only way of salvation, but it didn't click until then. I was given a ride home by the pastor who talked me through it. Fear was the first thing. My sin was before my eyes and I couldn't escape it. I loved Christ for saving a wretch like me, but it was fear that drove me there at first.
 
The warning of hell from Jesus to the religious leaders of the day appeared to be genuine to me.
 
Tonight the evening reading in the M'Cheyne 1 Year Bible Reading Plan was The Gospel According To John chapter 6. Jesus is specific that no man comes to Him unless the Father draws him, and that believing in Him is requisite for eternal life.

My own personal experience was realizing, through Scripture, that I was indeed a hell bent sinner, and I needed a Saviour. Until the Holy Spirit enlightened the eyes of my understanding hell was an abstract concept or a cuss word.

The Gospel of John 3:18 , and John 3:36 are very clear on the need to believe in the risen Christ unto salvation. That would be my argument with the fellow.
 
Johnathan Lee Allen said:
I'm not picking up what you're putting down. Can I get a definition?
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The Object of the elect's faith is/will be the Lord Jesus Christ, none other. Not deliverance from hell, not even deliverance from sin, etc. Now, it may be the case that a fear of hell sets God's elect on the road to salvation, but it will never terminate there. It will terminate on the God of all glory, such that His people would willingly cast aside all else to know the Father, the One True God, and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent (by the Spirit, etc.). Any man whose sole and perpetual reason for profession of faith is to escape hell has not yet understood the gravity of His sins as being against God Himself, Who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity, and cannot look upon sin. We are driven to Jesus Christ, in the final sense, because we have taken to heart our great offense against God Who is holy, and -even if He were to send us to hell- we would acknowledge His righteousness in so doing, and would not murmur at such.
 
I wonder if Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” is a factor here? I suspect it is.

That being said, a mere fear of hell and believing in Christ without love toward Christ and one’s fellow man falls short of saving faith, it seems to me. What I’m referring to is the idea that one can believe certain facts and then take some action such as walking an aisle, praying a prayer, getting baptized, joining a church, etc. Those are the kinds of things that people who have a fear of hell or death but in some sense don’t really fear God do to sort of check off the box.

Several years ago, a preacher friend told me that a man once told him “Preacher, I sell life insurance and you sell fire insurance” with the idea being that they were basically in the same business.


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I agree with everything Joshua said and I would add that there is a difference between fear and true repentance. It is possible for people to even wrap over their sins without ever actually repenting of them.

Kind of surprised that I agree with Piper, that doesn't happen very often anymore.
 
Pergamum said:
In John Piper's book Let the Nations be Glad, in chapter 6, Piper makes the case that someone cannot be saved based upon simply a fear of punishment in hell.

I had someone dispute this by saying the following:

"Is not salvation simply an acknowledgement of guilt before God and a taking of refuge within the provision of Christ’s atonement on the cross? Does someone need to desire the joys of knowing Christ before they can be saved? Granted, knowing Christ is an immeasurably wonderful thing, but the idea of being “saved” is being “saved” from a certain catastrophe. The wisdom of Proverbs even states that “the beginning of wisdom is fear of God” (Prov 9:10)."

How would you answer him?

I would probably agree with Piper. If one is saved from a disaster by the death of another, I think I'd love and be thankful for the one who saved me. So that Love for the Savior is present. Fear of hell could motivate one to do certain things, but fear cannot generate love, can it? The demons know they will be punished and they fear their fate, and yet they are unregenerate.

I suppose I could also point out this person's use of the word "saved" - salvation is the whole process of justification and sanctification throughout one's life. Maybe this person is thinking of the Thief on the Cross, who appeared to believe out of mere fear?
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Fear of hell isn't faith in Christ.
 
earl40 said:
Fear of Christ sending one to hell is. ;)
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Not merely, nor finally. If deliverance from eternal damnation is one's only motive for believing, one is not truly taking hold of Christ by faith. Resting upon Him. Loving Him as the All in all.
 
"Twas grace that taught my heart to fear ..." Recognizing our sin before a holy God is a needful first step, but it cannot be completed without it leading us to the mercy of Christ.
 
Joshua said:
Not merely, nor finally. If deliverance from eternal damnation is one's only motive for believing, one is not truly taking hold of Christ by faith. Resting upon Him. Loving Him as the All in all.
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I hear you, though may I ask something of motivations? Do you suspect there may be a other motives, like love and gratitude, from someone who is grateful to be delivered from hell? I think to say that is the only motive supposes a lot of us complex humans.
 
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
 
I agree that fear of hell is not where someone's journey stops. But, that is often where it starts. Think of the Philippian jailer. While hell is not mentioned, his question is very relevant in that his first inquiry upon learning that the prisoners were still there was "what must I do to be saved?" Saved. Not - "what what must I do to enjoy Christ?" Not - "what must I do so that God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in him?" No, the man asked "what must I do to be saved?" Paul did not chide him for this question. Paul did not say - you selfish person! How wicked of you! Your desire of salvation is merely out of selfish wicked desire to save your own skin! You don't really love Christ! You don't really treasure him above all else! We must first be crushed with the weight of the law and it's consequences before we can show any love for Christ and any appreciation for the salvation he brings.

I find that Piper sometimes rubs me the wrong way. I have no doubt that he enjoys wonderful fellowship with God. I am sure he loves Christ more than all else. But let's be honest, no one will ever love Christ as much as he should. Sometimes it gets a little too close to mandating a certain experience in order to be sure of one's salvation. Piper is an emotional guy - and many people are not.
 
The title of this thread says mere, and I will maintain that no man can enter the kingdom of heaven merely due to a fear of hell. This is not complex.
 
Its the fear of hell that causes people to seek God which can lead to repentance. The fear of hell cannot save you since its repentance out of sorrow not fear that saves. The affections of the heart are different when thinking of the emotions of fear versus sorrow. The passage of fearing the LORD I always understood as a reverent respect which has both aspects of awe and fear. I always think of Aslan in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe when I read that verse.

This verse indicates fear and love cannot mix:
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
 
De Jager said:
I agree that fear of hell is not where someone's journey stops. But, that is often where it starts. Think of the Philippian jailer. While hell is not mentioned, his question is very relevant in that his first inquiry upon learning that the prisoners were still there was "what must I do to be saved?" Saved. Not - "what what must I do to enjoy Christ?" Not - "what must I do so that God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in him?" No, the man asked "what must I do to be saved?" Paul did not chide him for this question. Paul did not say - you selfish person! How wicked of you! Your desire of salvation is merely out of selfish wicked desire to save your own skin! You don't really love Christ! You don't really treasure him above all else! We must first be crushed with the weight of the law and it's consequences before we can show any love for Christ and any appreciation for the salvation he brings.

I find that Piper sometimes rubs me the wrong way. I have no doubt that he enjoys wonderful fellowship with God. I am sure he loves Christ more than all else. But let's be honest, no one will ever love Christ as much as he should. Sometimes it gets a little too close to mandating a certain experience in order to be sure of one's salvation. Piper is an emotional guy - and many people are not.
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Good things said here, but at the same time, there are a wide variety of conversions within the scriptures and they are not so easily categorized as 'often' starting with a fear of hell. Just as much as the Gospels and Acts feature talk of Sheol/Hell, so also are there many, many allusions to the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of God, and for many, such as in Acts 8, believers came to salvation because they were brought to the knowledge of the Kingdom of God. That would seem to be the "opposite" situation, in which the goodness and greatness of God brings some people to recognizing their estate before a Holy God (like Nebuchadnezzar in the OT) than simply an "afraid" fear of retribution. Rather, it is a fear of awe and humility. Salvation being by grace through faith, there are many examples of conversions and people coming into the covenant in Scriptures that do not deal with necessarily the threat of hell or torment.

Pergamum said:
Maybe this person is thinking of the Thief on the Cross, who appeared to believe out of mere fear?
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Even in this situation, I saw this as the thief recognizing that he was paying justly for his crimes, but saw that Christ was unjustly being put to death, and that contrast seems to make the thief realize and admit his own low and undeserving estate in comparison. That, to me, seems to be more the impetus--that he does indeed see the nature of his sin. Matthew Henry's commentary is good at balancing this particular passage and drawing out the theology behind the thief on the cross as, really, going through many aspects--acknowledging his sin, the just punishment for his sin, but also the grace of Christ, and the hope of his Kingdom. There's a lot more than just fear of punishment and hell in there--as I believe that most repentant believers have--not just knowledge of their misery, but the knowledge of their deliverance (and who Deliverer is), and a gratefulness for that deliverance. The Heidelberg catechism breaks up into those three sections, I think, for very good pastoral reason.
 
I'm going to add something that isn't new. My testimony, brought up Catholic (like most French in the area). My parents were saved in 1995...saw their testimony lived out in our household.

Heard about hell, the rapture, blood moon...(yes, they are dispensationalists). But in all event, it was the fear of hell, and all the above that kept me going to all the gospel meetings in the summer of 2000. Then, hopelessness set in. I was trying to be saved, and couldn't. Till that fateful night on June 13th...When the right words were pronounced by the speaker. I had given up trying...and that's when Christ showed me the cross...
 
"By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavouring to walk with Him in all the ways of His commandments" WCF Chapter 15 par. 2

I would say our repentance unto salvation is a combination of the awareness of the present and future danger wrought by our sin, but also the sense of offense against a Holy and Righteous God. I fail to see how a healthy understanding of our justification before God (obviously central to our salvation), could not drive us to desire the joy of knowing Christ.
 
earl40 said:
Fear of Christ sending one to hell is. ;)
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Papists have that kind of faith, along with various cultists and heretics.

Fear of going to hell or even fear of God are good things, but they are not sufficient to constitute saving faith.


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