RPW and Responsive Reading

[Arch2k]

I am in the process of honing my beliefs of how public worship should be ordered, and what exactly should be included/excluded.

Recently, I have been meditating upon the Word of God, and the role of the congregation in worship. In the PCA of which I am a memeber, we have responsive reading, where the pastor will lead the congregation with a passage from the word, and the congregation will reply.

In the RPCNA church I am visiting, we do not have scriptural responsive reading, but the congregation does respond. Here is an example:

Minister: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
People: Amen!
Minister: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of
God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all!
People: And also with you!
Minister: Our help is in the name of the Lord!
People: Who made heaven and earth!

Does this fall in line with the RPW, and especially with the WLC?

Q156: Is the word of God to be read by all?
A156: Although all are not to be permitted to read the word publicly to the congregation,[1] yet all sorts of people are bound to read it apart by themselves,[2] and with their families:[3] to which end, the holy scriptures are to be translated out of the original into vulgar languages.[4]

1. Deut. 31:9, 11-13; Neh. 8:2-3; 9:3-5
2. Deut. 17:19; Rev. 1:3; John 5:39; Isa. 34:16
3. Deut. 6:6-9; Gen. 18:17, 19; Psa. 78:5-7
4. I Cor. 14:6, 9, 11-12, 15-16, 24, 27-28

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

I don't see how it opposes WLC 156 to read the word out loud in a service, along with the rest of the congregation, in a responsive fashion.

I think the emphasis of WLC 156 is on reading it TO others, as in teaching or exercising an authority which a Pastor does when he is preaching the word to the congregation.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
I think the emphasis of WLC 156 is on reading it TO others, as in teaching or exercising an authority which a Pastor does when he is preaching the word to the congregation.

That is the exact argument that I receieved when asking the men of the RPCNA church. They appealed to Deut. 27:

Deu 27:11 And Moses commanded the people on the same day, saying,
Deu 27:12 "These shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people, when you have crossed over the Jordan: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin;
Deu 27:13 "and these shall stand on Mount Ebal to curse: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali.
Deu 27:14 "And the Levites shall speak with a loud voice and say to all the men of Israel:
Deu 27:15 'Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded image, an abomination to the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.' And all the people shall answer and say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:16 'Cursed is the one who treats his father or his mother with contempt.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:17 'Cursed is the one who moves his neighbor's landmark.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:18 'Cursed is the one who makes the blind to wander off the road.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:19 'Cursed is the one who perverts the justice due the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:20 'Cursed is the one who lies with his father's wife, because he has uncovered his father's bed.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:21 'Cursed is the one who lies with any kind of animal.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:22 'Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:23 'Cursed is the one who lies with his mother-in-law.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:24 'Cursed is the one who attacks his neighbor secretly.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:25 'Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent person.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'
Deu 27:26 'Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'

I think this discussion will be very beneficial to me.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

We do responsive readings of Scripture during our Lord's Supper services, which are on the first Sabbath of every month.

Also, we follow the general outline of liturgy that Fred posted in another thread which the Westminster Divines set-up. However, our greetings, benedictions, calls to worship, etc. are always quotations from Scripture (as in the Genevan Psalter), and never man-written, repeated-every-week, phrase or phrases.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]

 

[Scott]

The essence of worship is God meeting with His people. The Bride and her Husband dialogue together, which is one reason the pastor (representing God) and the people (the Bride) alternate. The OPC Book of Church Order provides: "As a service of public worship is in its essence a meeting of God and his people, the parts of the service are of two kinds: those which are performed on behalf of God, and those which are performed by the congregation. In the former the worshippers are receptive, in the latter they are active. It is reasonable that these two elements be made to alternate as far as possible."

Consider Exodus 19:8. The people are meeting with God, which is the essence of our worship. God speaks, often through Moses. The people replied in a unified fashion. "The people all responded together, 'We will do everything the LORD has said.'" This sounds like a responsive reading, having all the people answer in unison (something that could not happen spontaneously). There are a variety of other OT passages where the people respond in a uniform fashion.

Another interesting example is Rev. 7:10ff, which says this about the innumerable multide and others: "And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: 'Amen!' Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"

The 144,000, or innumerable multitudes, are usually interpreted as Christian believers. Anyway, for that many people cry out in a loud voice, there would have to be coordination. And this is part of the heavenly worship of God, which we participate here in on earth (b/c we are presently "seated in the heavenlies").

Scott

 

[Scott]

Jeff: BTW, you might want to read through these short resources:

[1] The Usual Parts of Public Worship (from the OPC's Book of Church Order - a great summary of what is happening).
[2] The Beauty of Reformed Liturgy (may have to click to go to page 1). Good explanation of why elements are placed where they are.

 

[Arch2k]

Thanks for the replies Scott!

 

[Arch2k]

The Form of Presbyterial Church-Government

Pastors.

THE pastor is an ordinary and perpetual officer in the church, prophesying of the time of the gospel.

First, it belongs to his office,

To pray for and with his flock, as the mouth of the people unto God, Acts vi. 2, 3, 4, and xx. 36, where preaching and prayer are joined as several parts of the same office. The office of the elder (that is, the pastor) is to pray for the sick, even in private, to which a blessing is especially promised; much more therefore ought he to perform this in the publick execution of his office, as a part thereof.

To read the Scriptures publickly; for the proof of which,

1. That the priests and Levites in the Jewish church were trusted with the publick reading of the word is proved.

2. That the ministers of the gospel have as ample a charge and commission to dispense the word, as well as other ordinances, as the priests and Levites had under the law, proved, Isa. lxvi. 21. Matt. xxiii. 34. where our Saviour entitleth the officers of the New Testament, whom he will send forth, by the same names of the teachers of the Old.

Which propositions prove, that therefore (the duty being of a moral nature) it followeth by just consequence, that the publick reading of the scriptures belongeth to the pastor's office.

To feed the flock, by preaching of the word, according to which he is to teach, convince, reprove, exhort, and comfort.

To catechise, which is a plain laying down the first principles of the oracles of God, or of the doctrine of Christ, and is a part of preaching.

To dispense other divine mysteries.

To administer the sacraments.

To bless the people from God, Numb. vi. 23, 24, 25, 26. Compared with Rev. i.4, 5, (where the same blessings, and persons from whom they come, are ex mentioned,) Isa. lxvi. 21, where, under the names of Priests and Levites to be continued under the gospel, are meant evangelical pastors, who therefore are by office to bless the people.

To take care of the poor.

And he hath also a ruling power over the flock as a pastor.

[Edited on 9-14-2005 by Jeff_Bartel]

 

[Arch2k]

From The Worship of the English Puritans, by Horton Davies, p. 68:

The Puritans frequently cited I Cor. xiv 16 as a proof that only one person should speak at once, which appeared to them to veto congregational responses, with the single exception of the word Amen. Query 30 asks:1

"Whither this confused speaking with a loud voice be according to the word which commandeth all things to be done in order, because God is no the author of confusion and sheweth what is order, viz. when men speak strange tongues, and prophecies one by one, and private men say Amen to prayer and thanksgiving"

It was felt therfore that all responds or responsive reading ('the tossing to and fro of tennis balls') was prohibited by the Word of God.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
From The Worship of the English Puritans, by Horton Davies, p. 68:

The Puritans frequently cited I Cor. xiv 16 as a proof that only one person should speak at once, which appeared to them to veto congregational responses, with the single exception of the word Amen. Query 30 asks:1

"Whither this confused speaking with a loud voice be according to the word which commandeth all things to be done in order, because God is no the author of confusion and sheweth what is order, viz. when men speak strange tongues, and prophecies one by one, and private men say Amen to prayer and thanksgiving"

It was felt therfore that all responds or responsive reading ('the tossing to and fro of tennis balls') was prohibited by the Word of God.

Good quote. Thanks, Jeff!

 

[Scott]

I wonder how they distinguished the examples from the Bible (eg. Rev. 7:10ff).

 

[Arch2k]

Thanks for your comments! If I may Mr. Brandt, let me share a thought or two.

Originally posted by PastorSean
Jeff,

1. Responsive readings needn't be confused or disorderly. The last time I preached at your church I led the congregation in a responsive reading of Psalm 115, and it was one of the best examples of "responsive reading done right" that I've encountered. The congregation was in unison, enthusiastic, inflecting properly, and loud! And that enabled the congregation to worship, outwardly, as a congregation, not just as a gathering of individuals.

I agree that responsive readings are not necessarily disorderly. I did not mean to convey that fact, but it came along with the quote. I think the problem I am having is finding express warrant in scripture for responsive reading. Sure the word of God is to be read, the scriptures mention certain people are to read the Word of God (pastors to the congregation) and the Confessions surely don't include such an element.

Originally posted by PastorSean
2. The quote from the Davies book notwithstanding, I don't think the prohibitions of the lay-reading of Scripture and the enjoining of pastoral reading of Scripture in public worship as spelled out in the PFCG and WLC entail that there cannot be responsive reading of Scripture congregationally. There is a difference between the pastor, ministering in the name of the Lord Jesus (and as such speaking on his behalf) reading the Scripture to the congregation, and the congregation reading the Scripture together. (That difference rests, in part, in the preposition in the first sentence of the answer to WLC 156).

I hear your point in the prepositional argument from the WLC. That being taken into account, it still does not answer that there is need for express warrant or good an necessary consequence for responsive reading In my humble opinion.

Also, if one holds to a dialogical form of worship, the minister is God's representative in administering the Word to the congregation. If the congregation as a whole reads the scriptures responsively, who are they adminstering the Word to? Themselves? If so, who gave them this authority? There had to be authority given to ministers to read the scriptures publicly per the Wesminster standards, and scripture.

Originally posted by PastorSean
It seems ironic to me that some of the same people who want to insist that only the inspired Psalms may be sung by God's people would argue that the same people of God may not read the rest of God's word together. I'm not arguing one way or the other for EP. I don't really have a dog in that fight. But I am operating on the assumption that whatever we may think about EP we all agree that the Psalms may and must be sung, congregationally. Why then should not the rest of the Scripture also be read by the congregation, responsively, or in unison? (I might note that many of the Psalms appear to be structured for antiphonal chanting). And if we want a picture of disorder in worship, read Marsden's account of Psalm singing in the colonies in his biography of Jonathan Edwards.

As a person who is becoming more and more convinced on the arguments for EP, I will take a stab at this.

The Regulative Principle demands that only elements prescribed in scripture are to be used in worship. EP advocates hold that Psalms are the only songs prescribed in scripture. The same can be said of the reading and preaching of the Word.

This being said, there are different rules for the elements of worship. Psalms are to be sung by the congregation. God has not given us a Spirit of singing. No office for singing exists. However, the elements of prayer (we are given a spirit of prayer) and preaching (there is an office for preaching) do contain these elements. In my opinion (and I am willing to be convinced), the reading of the Word rests in the same position as the preaching of the Word of God. At least the Standards do not allow for such a reading in their elements of worship.

Originally posted by PastorSean
3. It is probably worth noting that the Greeting at the beginning of Trinity Reformed's liturgy is entirely Biblical, viz., Matt. 28:20; 1 Cor. 14:16; 2 Cor. 16:14; Psalm 124:8.

I'm going to list these scriptures out for myself:

Mat 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Psa 124:8 Our help is in the name of the LORD, Who made heaven and earth.

Originally posted by PastorSean
Just a few thoughts. The Lord bless you, brother.

Well, for now, we all agree that the Word of God is to be read. The only question left is "Does the Bibles specify by whom?"

Thanks for your thoughts. Lord bless you as well.

 

[Arch2k]