He ignored Romans 9:11 which teaches that God's choice of certain individuals was not based upon their deeds.
He ignores what the whole chapter of Romans 9 is saying. It does not at all say that God hated Esau because of what he did.
Romans 9, according to Ergun Caner
- Thread starter Marrow Man
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He ignored Romans 9:11 which teaches that God's choice of certain individuals was not based upon their deeds.
He ignores what the whole chapter of Romans 9 is saying. It does not at all say that God hated Esau because of what he did.
SolaSaint
Puritan Board Sophomore
Can we all agree with this verse, if I haven't taken it out of it's proper context:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
I feel we have no idea how the word "Hate" compares with the attributes of God. I feel we must be very careful when trying to place God in our own little box when it comes to His nature especially. Some things are better left up to the mystery of God. Wouldn't we all agree it's a mystery that He chooses some while not others?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
I feel we have no idea how the word "Hate" compares with the attributes of God. I feel we must be very careful when trying to place God in our own little box when it comes to His nature especially. Some things are better left up to the mystery of God. Wouldn't we all agree it's a mystery that He chooses some while not others?
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
The more basic question is: what kind of nut names his kid "Ergun?"
And THAT, my friend, is the crack in the doorway that leads to open theism.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
He and his brother were raised as Muslims and converted to Christianity. That also explains why he is a professor of apologetics -- his apologetical expertise pertaining specifically to Islam.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
That expertise is also questioned by many Muslims. There is a whole website dedicated to pointing out his false Muslim teachings.
I am not going to comment on how devout of a Muslim he was or not. Just saying that other Muslims think he was a muslim by name only.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Two things to consider:
1) This isn't totally shocking, since he misrepresents Calvinism. One might expect that to extend to other areas as well.
2) OTOH, there seems to be a little game here that many wish to play (the old "No true Scotsman fallacy" -- but sometimes it is a warranted objection, though): the insistence that when a person leaves a particular faith/tradition/religion, they never were a part of it to begin with, and they only misrepresent those beliefs. As an inexact analogy, consider the complaints by those in the Federal Vision movement; all I ever hear by its defenders is "no one understands us; everyone just misrepresents us." While that may be true at times (every Christian has probably experience someone who has left the faith failing to understand even the most basic of Christian doctrine), it wears thin after a while. The truth is, just are there many different facets of FV theology, there are different movements within Islam that do not agree. So if someone grew up a Sunni, then a Shi'ite might come along and complain that their beliefs were being misrepresented. There are nominal Muslims and liberal Muslims, just as there are the same in "Christianity." Of course, Ergun Caner and his family might have, in fact, been members of the latter.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I totally agree that a game is going on in the background. The youtube videos try to make it out that Dr. Caner was never a muslim. I disagree with that. If anything I think the videos cast doubt on how well Dr. Caner really knows Islam.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Very well stated and many thanks for pointing this out. As I said before, it isn't shocking. Sad, but not shocking.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Before Falwell died, he called Calvinism (or, more specifically, the doctrine of limited atonement) "heresy."
[video=youtube;XBbcGIrgOds]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBbcGIrgOds[/video]
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
The DVD "Amazing Grace" features a theology professor at Liberty Seminary who is an outspoken Calvinist. Does anyone recall his name? I don't have the DVD.
Parsifal23
Puritan Board Freshman
couldn't have said it better myself
-----Added 12/14/2009 at 07:49:20 EST-----
Well yeah when you have all ready inserted your presupposition into the text you don't need to deal with those pesky things like context or exegesis
-----Added 12/14/2009 at 07:51:25 EST-----
We have a winner that's the worst interpretation I have ever heard
Reformed Thomist
Puritan Board Sophomore
Who doesn't hate Esau?
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Then, there's this guy...
[video=youtube;e78-6fmI5i8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e78-6fmI5i8&feature=player_embedded[/video]
[video=youtube;e78-6fmI5i8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e78-6fmI5i8&feature=player_embedded[/video]
Wow. Calvinism is right from the pit of hell, eh? I've never been more liberated to preach the gospel than since I embraced the doctrines of grace. Knowing that God is control of the calling and saving of souls emancipates the minister of the gospel. I preach the gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit, knowing that God has ordained it as the means by which He calls sinners to repentance. Gone is the need to play on the heart strings of the audience. THAT is from the pit of hell.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
I suppose William Carey was one of them "lib'ral babdists."
At least that's what he learned in "Bible college."
At least that's what he learned in "Bible college."
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
"dirty Calvinists" Wow, how loving of him!
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