Role of Women in the Church

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jenney

Puritan Board Freshman
**If this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to move it!**
Situation:

Lord's Day services include two worship services (morning and evening) and a Sunday school class for all adults. There is only one adult SS class, so it always includes both genders.

Sunday School differs from the worship service in a few ways:
* No congregational prayer except to open and close. We pray for other churches and members of our body and the gov't etc during worship.
* There is not a weekly consecutive Scripture reading in SS the way there is in the worship service.
* The lesson is usually topical rather than an expository sermon on one main passage of the Word.
* Sometimes people in the congregation will be asked to read verses or answer questions from the elder teaching the class.
* Questions/discussion are invited from the congregation

My questions:
In this setting, is it appropriate for women to speak?
Read the Scripture verses?
Answer the questions?
Ask questions?
 
My answer is NO. but for the reason I will have to get back to you tomorrow morning.. It is my birthday night and my wife has plans for me... :D

Michael

**If this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to move it!**
Situation:

Lord's Day services include two worship services (morning and evening) and a Sunday school class for all adults. There is only one adult SS class, so it always includes both genders.

Sunday School differs from the worship service in a few ways:
* No congregational prayer except to open and close. We pray for other churches and members of our body and the gov't etc during worship.
* There is not a weekly consecutive Scripture reading in SS the way there is in the worship service.
* The lesson is usually topical rather than an expository sermon on one main passage of the Word.
* Sometimes people in the congregation will be asked to read verses or answer questions from the elder teaching the class.
* Questions/discussion are invited from the congregation

My questions:
In this setting, is it appropriate for women to speak?
Read the Scripture verses?
Answer the questions?
Ask questions?
 
Jennifer,

I ran across this not long ago. It helped me with some of my questions on it, although it isn't comprehensive.



http://opc.org/nh.html?article_id=440




I actually had a conversation on this on another message board and this is a snip of what I said:

The author of the article is making the case from the verses of women remaining silent and not to teach - passages which are clear. The verses in Ephesians and Colossians give helpful definition to what speaking and teaching entails (at least in part). I think he explains that there is a distinction between congregational response and individual teaching/speaking. The case isn't made on Ephesians and Colossians alone.

FTR, I can see his argument and how he lays out the case. I've spent time reading it again and the verses he speaks of. It's NOT a black and white case. I feel it's strong, but it's not iron clad kwim?
 
**If this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to move it!**
Situation:

Lord's Day services include two worship services (morning and evening) and a Sunday school class for all adults. There is only one adult SS class, so it always includes both genders.

Sunday School differs from the worship service in a few ways:
* No congregational prayer except to open and close. We pray for other churches and members of our body and the gov't etc during worship.
* There is not a weekly consecutive Scripture reading in SS the way there is in the worship service.
* The lesson is usually topical rather than an expository sermon on one main passage of the Word.
* Sometimes people in the congregation will be asked to read verses or answer questions from the elder teaching the class.
* Questions/discussion are invited from the congregation

My questions:
In this setting, is it appropriate for women to speak?
Read the Scripture verses?
Answer the questions?
Ask questions?

No.
 
I guess "ask a yes/no question, expect yes/no answers" applies!

Thanks Dawn for the link.

Anybody have energy for the reasons for your yes/no's?

The yes's I've heard before make a distinction between worship and Sunday School. The no's tend not to. How alike must they be for the same rules to apply? How different must they be before different rules apply? Is there some other distinction that overrides?
 
The passage in question does not just say worship... It says in "Church"....

I would also point out the Corporate Prayer meeting and Sabbath School are Worship services and are stated meetings of the church..

I also prefer that if one is going to have a Sabbath School (Which at times I question) it should be more like another worship service in a formal setting but with a more teaching aspect then a sermon.

So I believe the answer is no for all of above... I know this is a short answer and I have wanted to give a more fuller answer but have not had a chance.....
Still expect one coming....


Michael

I guess "ask a yes/no question, expect yes/no answers" applies!

Thanks Dawn for the link.

Anybody have energy for the reasons for your yes/no's?

The yes's I've heard before make a distinction between worship and Sunday School. The no's tend not to. How alike must they be for the same rules to apply? How different must they be before different rules apply? Is there some other distinction that overrides?
 
A church is not a building or what occurs in that building, it is a group of people. I know that sound obvious but in this context it needs restating.

When we meet as a "church" several thing must happen to "sanctify" the people and the place. I.e. call to worship, various elements of worship, etc.

What I mean is if the same 100 people meet in the same building for some other purpose, then it is not "church". It might be an emergency shelter, polling station, etc., but it is not "church". I think most people will grant this distinction.

Now try an analogy. If you meet in the same building on say thursday for a lecture on the "history of basket weaving" can you ask questions etc.? Of course the correct answer is yes. No trouble here, this has nothing top do with "church", right? Now change the lecture topic to "Church history". Can you still ask questions? I think yes, you can. Move this imaginary lecture on church history to sunday morning, can you ask questions? If you say no why not?

I would say that a lecture on history or exposition of some doctrine or a lesson on the WSC is not "church". Because it lacks the elements of worship the rule that apply to worship do not apply here. SS does not have a call to worship, confession of sin, singing of psalms/hymns, sermons, etc.

In other words it (ss) takes place in the same building, with the same people, but it is not in a "sacred" space, we have not entered into Gods presence to "worship" him so the rules for that worship do not apply.:2cents:
 
A church is not a building or what occurs in that building, it is a group of people. I know that sound obvious but in this context it needs restating.

When we meet as a "church" several thing must happen to "sanctify" the people and the place. I.e. call to worship, various elements of worship, etc.

What I mean is if the same 100 people meet in the same building for some other purpose, then it is not "church". It might be an emergency shelter, polling station, etc., but it is not "church". I think most people will grant this distinction.

Now try an analogy. If you meet in the same building on say thursday for a lecture on the "history of basket weaving" can you ask questions etc.? Of course the correct answer is yes. No trouble here, this has nothing top do with "church", right? Now change the lecture topic to "Church history". Can you still ask questions? I think yes, you can. Move this imaginary lecture on church history to sunday morning, can you ask questions? If you say no why not?

I would say that a lecture on history or exposition of some doctrine or a lesson on the WSC is not "church". Because it lacks the elements of worship the rule that apply to worship do not apply here. SS does not have a call to worship, confession of sin, singing of psalms/hymns, sermons, etc.

In other words it (ss) takes place in the same building, with the same people, but it is not in a "sacred" space, we have not entered into Gods presence to "worship" him so the rules for that worship do not apply.:2cents:

I would agree here.

Our SS is actually set up very informally. Elder or pastor prays to begin our time and we go right into study. There is a LOT of Q&A (I prefer less ;) but it's just a personal opinion). We end with the elder or pastor praying.
 
In other words it (ss) takes place in the same building, with the same people, but it is not in a "sacred" space, we have not entered into Gods presence to "worship" him so the rules for that worship do not apply.:2cents:

And this is what I was getting at. Is SS similar enough to worship to mean women should learn in silence and full submission there? Or is it more like a painting class where I might not only speak, but actually teach?

And how do we decide if it is in a "sacred" space? Do we leave it to the elders? Or, if the elders have already decided it is different, am I being unsubmissive if I say (which I have) that I have a conscience problem with it so please do not call on me because I won't answer and we'll all feel awkward? Do I have the Christian liberty to remain silent?
 
And this is what I was getting at. Is SS similar enough to worship to mean women should learn in silence and full submission there? Or is it more like a painting class where I might not only speak, but actually teach?

And how do we decide if it is in a "sacred" space? Do we leave it to the elders? Or, if the elders have already decided it is different, am I being unsubmissive if I say (which I have) that I have a conscience problem with it so please do not call on me because I won't answer and we'll all feel awkward? Do I have the Christian liberty to remain silent?

I would say by way of reply that WE don't decide if it is "sacred space" or not God does. He defines the elements of worship, and what is OK and what is not OK. As presbyterians we call this the "regulative principle of worship". Two key point about the RPW, first it is meant to "regulate" and second what it is to regulate is "worship".

In my opinion SS is not worship because it does not have the elements of worship. If you start it with a call to worship, then say the creed, read the OT and NT sing a psalm/hymn, receive offerings & tithes, preach, baptise people, celebrate the Lords Supper, etc. then it no longer is SS it is worship and the rules of worship apply.

And no one can ever be compelled to reply to any question. But why not? Are you attempting to make a point? From your reply it sounds as if you are saying that you conscience is bothered by the fact that your elders have said that SS is not worship and women MAY reply to questions. Remember sister what the "end game" is here, it is to worship God in the manner he demands (in my view in worship) and to learn more about our faith in a more or less academic sense(in my view in SS). Don't let this issue (as important as it is) distract you from either one of those things.
 
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Jen,

I do believe this is an instance where you would be free to exercise christian liberty not to speak if your conscience is troubled to do so. I would hope that your elders/pastors would exercise christian love and charity by not calling on you unless or until you're comfortable with it.
 
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