RIP PCA?

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NaphtaliPress

NaphtaliPress

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If this passes, the PCA, and very quickly, will go the way of the old PCUS. Not exactly the same, but in generalities, exactly the same (toss subscription, advance egalitarianism, evolution, etc.). The progressives killed any hope of a confessional church in 2002 when good faith subscription was rammed through, theistic evolution is taught without consequence, and we have in practice, women deacons already and with impunity. Just have them in a way the skirts the letter of the law. This may fail this year; but history tells us progressives are untiring, and conservatives give up and when their numbers dwindle the pace quickens. I read/showed this to two TEs, one former and one still PCA, and one while generally pretty down on the PCA was still shocked by this and the other said "this is sick."
I got this from Andrew Barnes on Facebook who explains,
"This comes from the Cooperative Ministries Committee (which is made up of the last 5 moderators of GA, and heads of all the Permanent Committees/Agencies). However, CMC can't recommend anything to the GA by themselves, they have to go through a Permanent Committee/Agency (one that is appropriate to the action they are recommending). So this is the CMC through AC to GA."

3. That Assembly form a study committee on the issue of women serving in the ministry of the church (RAO 9-1; 9-3). The Assembly authorizes the Moderator to appoint the study committee. The study committee should be made up of competent men and women representing the diversity of opinions within the PCA (RAO 9-1; Robert’s Rules of Order [11[SUP]th[/SUP] edition], 14, pp. 174-175, 50, pp. 495-496; 50, pp. 497-498 56, p. 579]).
The committee should give particular attention to the issues of:
​

  1. The biblical basis, theology, history, nature and authority of ordination;​
  2. (2) The biblical nature and function of the office of deacon;​
  3. (3) Clarification on the ordination or commissioning of deacons/deaconesses;​
  4. (4) Should the findings of the study committee warrant BCO changes, the study committee will propose such changes for the General Assembly to consider.​
The committee will have a budget of $15,000 that is funded by designated donations to the AC from churches and individuals (RAO 9-2).
A Pastoral Letter to be proposed by the ad interim study committee and approved by the General Assembly be sent to all churches, encouraging them to (1) promote he practice of women in ministry, (2) appoint women to serve alongside elders and deacons in the pastoral work of the church, and (3) hire women on church staff in appropriate ministries.
Grounds: The Cooperative Ministries Committee may not make recommendations directly to the General Assembly but must do so through an apropriate committee or agency (RAO 7-3 c; 7-6). The CMC has had a subcommittee on the role of women and has sent several recommendations to the AC (including a proposal for a study committee on the issue women serving in the church) and CDM to bring to the Assembly.​

For back ground here is the report of this committee of past moderators, and other men and women:

article.jpg
Now maybe this is watered down or killed but the fact that it is proposed, by a committee that included 5 past moderators no less, indicates this is not going away. It will keep coming up. When they get tired of dealing with the confessionalists or conservatives they will force it through like they did good faith subscription. And after all, it is more important to them to retain millennials who own the surrounding degraded culture than retain those defending Presbyterian doctrine and practice.
 
Wow, the PCA?

The egalitarians have practically taken the field in most denominations. Most of the ones that still decline to ordain women are VERY small. I can only think of six denominations larger than a couple of hundred thousand that continue to insist on male only ordination: CM&A, EFC, LCMS, PCA, SBC, WELS.

Groups still refusing to ordain women . . .
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church - 39,681
Christian & Missionary Alliance - 430,000
Evangelical Free Church - 371,191
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod – 2.1 million
Mennonite Brethren - 26,219
Orthodox Presbyterian Church - 31,112
Presbyterian Church in America - 358,516
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America - 6,572
Southern Baptist Convention - 15.49 million
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 303,130
 
As in politics, so in religion: leftists are untiring, as noted above, and always play the long game. Advancing the narrative and their agenda is all that matters, and they'll keep pushing until they win. They don't care if it takes 20 years or 50. They always have their eyes on the prize.
 
Not surprised at all by this. Both of the PCA churches in my area are super progressive and non-confessional. I recently discussed on this forum my concerns over some of what I've encountered at these churches.

I can still remember asking the senior pastor at one of the two PCA churches during membership classes whether any of the elders/deacons in the church took issue with anything found in the Westminster Confession and he responded "Hmm...I'm not sure, I don't think I've ever asked any of them." In this same church I met a deacon who didn't even realize he was in the PCA. The gentlemen was a Baptist. As hard as that is to believe, it is true.
 
DMcFadden said:
Wow, the PCA?

The egalitarians have practically taken the field in most denominations. Most of the ones that still decline to ordain women are VERY small. I can only think of six denominations larger than a couple of hundred thousand that continue to insist on male only ordination: CM&A, EFC, LCMS, PCA, SBC, WELS.

Groups still refusing to ordain women . . .
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church - 39,681
Christian & Missionary Alliance - 430,000
Evangelical Free Church - 371,191
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod – 2.1 million
Mennonite Brethren - 26,219
Orthodox Presbyterian Church - 31,112
Presbyterian Church in America - 358,516
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America - 6,572
Southern Baptist Convention - 15.49 million
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 303,130
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If I am not mistaken, the RPCNA does allow for ordination of women deacons:

The modern debate regarding the ordination of women to the diaconate began in the 1880s, about twenty years after the rise of what has been called "Christian feminism." During the late 1880s a move to ordain women to the diaconate failed in the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America (PCUSA) but passed in the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA). The debate over women deacons re-emerged in the 1980s, about twenty years after the rise of secular and pagan feminism. The fact that the push to ordain women as deacons occurred in both the nineteenth and twentieth centuries after certain types of feminism became popular in our culture is very interesting. The arguments set forth by those on both sides of the debate during the 1980s bore a striking resemblance to the arguments offered during the 1880s. At this writing there are a number of ministers in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Presbyterian Church of America who believe that women should be ordained to the diaconate. There are ministers within the RPCNA who do not believe that ordaining women to the diaconate has biblical warrant. Can the debate over women deacons be resolved within these orthodox Presbyterian bodies? Are the biblical passages used in the debate so difficult that the best one can hope for is an "exegetical standoff"? Does the evidence from church history support the pro-women deacon view, as many assert? Is it possible that in certain ways both sides have been wrong and that there is a third alternative? Since these questions are important, and since most of the material dealing with these issues is brief and somewhat superficial, I have endeavored to examine the historical evidence and the biblical passages used in the debate in greater detail. I hope and pray that this little book will help Bible-believing Reformed and Presbyterian pastors and elders have a better grasp of these issues.
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From B. Schwertley's paper 'A Historical and Biblical Examination of Women Deacons'

From my understanding, the RPCNA does not act in accordance to this amendment however. There are no women deacons in the group.

As far as the PCA goes, well lets just say in a generation or two, it will most likely be in the same place as the PCUSA if their liberalism is not reeled in in a great fashion. It is slowly being euthanized.
 
From history I see how patient God was with the RC church and this causes me to attempt to be more so with our current denomination as they whittle away at our confession. Satan has all the time in the world and he utilizes that time wisely knowing that men want the least common denominator in the religion they hold to.

I know that reading and studying our WCF has done for me in my walk than all the "**** I learned in HS". Not to say my local church teaches all **** but the OP points out what is happening where I gather on Sunday, and I joined my current local church to escape the depth of manure I have seen in non confessional churches. Sometimes I am not sure what is worse. Belonging to a church that has a confession but gives it lip service in areas such as Chris brought up, or belonging to a church that has a minimal confession of faith? I still gladly choose to belong to a professing confessional church even though I know satan is at work in the PCA.
 
The RPCNA and ARP notion of deaconness however would be totally different from the notion of a PCA deaconness. That's what's different here.
 
While I am against women deacons or ordination, which presumes authority, in the one Calvinist and one PCA church where I was around them, what they actually did was strictly feminine and acceptable. It was all helping and service type ministry. It seemed like the recognition was the men leaders trying to show gratitude and honor to them, as opposed to the women being pushy or demanding anything. So at this point I would say hearts are still in the right place as far as I know and it is a battle for the mind and for scriptural authority.

The evolution thing leaves me shaking my head. You have endless intelligent design books by incredibly smart scientists about irreducible complexity and why classic evolutionary theory is mathematically and scientifically impossible. You don't even have to have faith to reject classic Darwinian evolution; many religious sceptics realize it is impossible. How this is allowed is something I just don't understand.
 
The goal is not just to have women appropriately assisting the deacons but is to have woman serving communion and other actions in the worship service. The thing is not whether women are being pushy (what in the world are women doing on I guess one of the highest level study committees of the General Assembly?). The heart is not in the right place if we are not beginning with scripture. This is pragmatics driven because the progressives don't want to lose the millennials who are beyond where the PCA's standards are on things such as sexuality, egalitarianism etc. This is similar bottom up rot that killed the PCUS. For instance on the doctrine of the Sabbath. Year after year the Sabbath Committee of the PCUS (hey, what is a Sabbath committee; PCA have one of those?), wrung their hands about how to get their people to better observe the Lord's Day and moaned about the cultural downgrade of that time. Then one year with an epiphany, they realized, the problem was no longer the people or the question to ask was not what is wrong with their members, but what was wrong with their ministers who wouldn't teach or take up any of their recommendations? The peoples' ears itch and the ministers are going to scratch them.
lynnie said:
While I am against women deacons or ordination, which presumes authority, in the one Calvinist and one PCA church where I was around them, what they actually did was strictly feminine and acceptable. It was all helping and service type ministry. It seemed like the recognition was the men leaders trying to show gratitude and honor to them, as opposed to the women being pushy or demanding anything. So at this point I would say hearts are still in the right place as far as I know and it is a battle for the mind and for scriptural authority.
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DMcFadden said:
Most of the ones that still decline to ordain women are VERY small.
Click to expand...

I would add the Reformed Episcopal Church to this, as well as a few other jurisdictions under the auspices of the Anglican Church North America. The current Archbishop is also on record as being opposed and his Diocese of the South does not ordain women.
 
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Dennis, both the ARP and the RPCNA have ordained female deacons, which is what the PCA is considering.
 
DMcFadden said:
Southern Baptist Convention - 15.49 million
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Kinda, sorta, maybe. More of a non-binding directive.

"Southern Baptists have long valued the priceless contribution of women as they have ministered to advance God's Kingdom. The Baptist Faith and Message (BF&M) affirms the vital role of women serving in the church. Yet it recognizes the biblical restriction concerning the office of pastor, saying: "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." The passages that restrict the office of pastor to men do not negate the essential equality of men and women before God, but rather focus on the assignment of roles.

"The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are restricted to men. However the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy."
http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp#faq9
 
I know for a fact they assume they are in accord with scripture and will tell you Calvin had deaconesses and Phoebe was a deaconess. While I think the overarching weight of scripture is such that women deacons is something I don't agree with, and I share you concerns, their hearts are not necessarily rejecting the inerrancy of scripture nor necessarily in the wrong place.

Now evolution.....how you can twist the bible to say Adam nursed at the breast of a non human primate mama is beyond me.
 
Lynnie, I'm not addressing your experience; but the reasoning presented in the material above and culture is driving the concern not a theological debate over women deacons.
 
Jake said:
Dennis, both the ARP and the RPCNA have ordained female deacons, which is what the PCA is considering.
Click to expand...

This is a false.

First, the PCA at this juncture at this upcoming General Assembly will only be dealing with a Study Committee. That study committee at the current time would only, through the recommendation, study the deaconess issue as one of many things to study under the topic of 'women in ministry'.

Second, if the PCA in years to come were to make an office of 'deaconess', it would most assuredly be different in very major ways compared to the ARP or RPCNA's female deacons.

One can't make this as simple as equating what the PCA is doing with the ARP or RPCNA. It is not even remotely close to the same thing.
 
Jake,

You are absolutely correct. In my "quick and dirty" attempt at collating data, I used sources that primarily dealt with ministerial ordination to the pastoral office rather than differentiating from those that ordain TE and RE. That is mixing apples and oranges. My bad.

But, given the idiosyncratic ways in which different groups denominate their office holders, there may be more nuances that need to be introduced. Even within a single type of tradition, there may be differences. Among Southern Baptists, for instance, the OLD pattern was to only consider the senior pastor a "pastor." Everyone else, even those with M.Div's might be called "Director of Christian Education," "Director of Youth," etc. American Baptists, by contrast, ordained anyone that had a M.Div., regardless of the specialized ministry (e.g., youth, worship, counseling, education, administration, family ministry, etc.). So a "Christian Ed" Director in one denomination might be the functional equivalent of Rev. XYZ, the Associate Pastor in another body.

My current denomination only ordains men to the pastoral office. Other seminary educated persons could be DCEs or Deaconesses (in our tradition the Deaconess is a seminary trained woman who holds title and post in a congregation doing non-preaching church work).
 
As Andrew notes the history of deaconnesses in the RPCNA/ARP are of a different category and both of those denominations are going the opposite direction.

In the ARP deaconnesses were a "pressure release valve" to stop the progressive movement in the ARP during the late 1960's and from what I understand never became a majority position and are except for a few pockets almost extinct. I know in my presbytery there are none.

The RPCNA has had them since the 1880's and like the ARP they are on the way out.
 
My ARP ordination exam last year before the Minister & His Work Committee:

Chairman: What is your position on women serving as deacons?
Me: I do not believe Scripture supports women serving as deacons.
Chairman: What argument would you make from Scripture?
Me: "Let deacons each be the husband of one wife," (1 Tim. 3).
Chairman: Okay, next question...
Click to expand...
 
It does seem the PCA is the one 'conservative' Presbyterian body consistently trending less confessional/conservative as opposed to what is going on in the others.
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
As Andrew notes the history of deaconnesses in the RPCNA/ARP are of a different category and both of those denominations are going the opposite direction.

In the ARP deaconnesses were a "pressure release valve" to stop the progressive movement in the ARP during the late 1960's and from what I understand never became a majority position and are except for a few pockets almost extinct. I know in my presbytery there are none.

The RPCNA has had them since the 1880's and like the ARP they are on the way out.
Click to expand...
 
Without trying to fight if deaconesses in the ARP were seen as essentially a compromise at that time as a "pressure release valve" how would the deaconesses in the ARP be different than the PCA other than that the ARP is now trending more conservative. Both would seem to have the same motivation
 
NaphtaliPress said:
It does seem the PCA is the one 'conservative' Presbyterian body consistently trending less confessional/conservative as opposed to what is going on in the others.
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
As Andrew notes the history of deaconnesses in the RPCNA/ARP are of a different category and both of those denominations are going the opposite direction.

In the ARP deaconnesses were a "pressure release valve" to stop the progressive movement in the ARP during the late 1960's and from what I understand never became a majority position and are except for a few pockets almost extinct. I know in my presbytery there are none.

The RPCNA has had them since the 1880's and like the ARP they are on the way out.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I have personal knowledge of a PCA minister who was denied transfer into an RPCNA presbytery solely because he refused to acknowledge that there was Biblical warrant for women deacons. It is incorrect to assert that women's ordination in the RPCNA is of no import.
 
fredtgreco said:
NaphtaliPress said:
It does seem the PCA is the one 'conservative' Presbyterian body consistently trending less confessional/conservative as opposed to what is going on in the others.
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
As Andrew notes the history of deaconnesses in the RPCNA/ARP are of a different category and both of those denominations are going the opposite direction.

In the ARP deaconnesses were a "pressure release valve" to stop the progressive movement in the ARP during the late 1960's and from what I understand never became a majority position and are except for a few pockets almost extinct. I know in my presbytery there are none.

The RPCNA has had them since the 1880's and like the ARP they are on the way out.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I have personal knowledge of a PCA minister who was denied transfer into an RPCNA presbytery solely because he refused to acknowledge that there was Biblical warrant for women deacons. It is incorrect to assert that women's ordination in the RPCNA is of no import.
Click to expand...

Did I say it was of "no import"? I merely noted that the arrow is pointing away from that, especially as older minister members retire, similar to the ARP.

I also did not make any kind of statement about the current situation in certain RP presbyteries, only my experience in the ARP presbytery I inhabit.
 
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