Reverend vs. Pastor

[N. Eshelman]

In exegeting the scriptures, there are places where one interprets specific commands as generalized. For example, the command to honor one's father and mother is taken to extend to all legitimate authority.

How about Jesus' command to call no man your father, and not to be called rabbi? Does this not extend to all titles of distinction between believers? There is only one Pastor, namely God. Only One is Reverend. Similarly with other titles. I hold an M.D. but will not be called "doctor" within the church because there is only One who heals.

If your doctorate was relevant to theology of church history or some other related subject, I imagine that many would call you doctor.

I see your point, although we see clearly in the NT that titles do apply- for example the Apostle Paul.

 

[KMK]

apropo of nothing - I'd like to be called maestro

I am often called 'maestro' by my spanish speaking students.

They must really respect you.

Not to throw this thread off topic because I do think it is relevant: Spanish speaking children often address the teacher as "Teacher". To English speaking ears this sounds like a slur but they mean it with all due respect. They often do not know how to pronounce "Mister Klein" (not being German) and use the English word they do know: Teacher.

I think that some people may revere the title 'Pastor' while others revere 'Reverend' while others revere 'Minister'. What is really important is not the title but the heart of the individual.

That is why I do not demand people call me one thing or another. I figure I must earn their respect first and then they will address me respectfully.

 

[markkoller]

I am often called 'maestro' by my spanish speaking students.

They must really respect you.

Not to throw this thread off topic because I do think it is relevant: Spanish speaking children often address the teacher as "Teacher". To English speaking ears this sounds like a slur but they mean it with all due respect. They often do not know how to pronounce "Mister Klein" (not being German) and use the English word they do know: Teacher.

I think that some people may revere the title 'Pastor' while others revere 'Reverend' while others revere 'Minister'. What is really important is not the title but the heart of the individual.

That is why I do not demand people call me one thing or another. I figure I must earn their respect first and then they will address me respectfully.

These are good statement to make and very helpful.

Points made in above posts in favor of Reverend are to a certain degree speaking in favor a title that is both respectful AND formal. I think it good to mention that Reverend is not really better or worse but it does emphasize a set-apartness that is lacking in most titles given to "preachers". I would never demand anyone call me anything, but in my informal and rural surroundings I always find ample opportunity to defend the Reverend title. It gives me opportunity to lift the office and teach about what a minister does. In the same way I defend the geneva gown and even the dreaded collar (though I dont wear one myself).

By the way, Pastor is a fine title to be given as well.

 

[raekwon]

Being a two-office guy, I really like the way Mars Hill Church in Seattle handles it. All of their elders, whether or not they're on the church's staff, are referred to by their people as "Pastor (first name)". Bucking the prevailing idea that "elder" and "pastor" are different offices.

 

[Wannabee]

Rae,

Good point. We don't make a distinction either, though the guys here are struggling with it. They agree that it's biblical (Pastor=elder), but hadn't quite throught through it that way until we studied it a few months ago. But we're still in the early stages of everyone really interacting accordingly. Interestingly, I'm not even an elder yet. I told them that they needed to evaluate my character before they could possibly make me an elder in the church... so I'm a sort of pastor in training, or something.

 

[Christusregnat]

Nothing worse than stuffy formalism...

Self-righteous informalism?

 

[Ivan]

Nothing worse than stuffy formalism...

Self-righteous informalism?

To each his own?

 

[Wannabee]

Being informal is self-righteous????? Wha....???

 

[Christusregnat]

Being informal is self-righteous????? Wha....???

Indeed, because it snubs its nose at formality, something which Scripture gives examples of, requires of men, and which the saints in all ages have recognized as a part of reverence for God.

Take, for instance, the Psalms. These are liturgical prayers and odes intended to be recited, read or prayed: formality. Paul demands certain protocol be followed in the churches with regard to all things being done decently and in order: formality. Civil justices are to observe certain rules of protocol and procedure in carrying out their tasks: formality. Elders, deacons and missionaries are sent out in Scripture after following a pattern of prayer, fasting, laying on of hands, etc.: formality. Don't get me started on the Levitical Laws: formality. Jesus organized His disciples, at the sending of the 70 into a strict pattern of conduct (two by two, what to say when entering a house, and how to respond to the unrepentant): formality. Jesus told His disciples to "say these words" and "pray after this manner" when teaching on prayer: formality.

When we look down on formality as an evil thing, we have created a righteousness of our own, derived from modern man's hatred of certainty.

Cheers,

 

[Neogillist]

I used to call my minister "Pastor Pols", but after sometimes, I started feeling that "pastor" is not respectful enough because everyone at my church calls him Rev. , so now I call him "Reverend Pols." I think he likes it.

 

[py3ak]

I think there's a shorter way to arrive at "self-righteous informality". Many people see their informality as being somehow meritorious, and pride themselves on it: informality becomes as rigidly codified and demanding as any sort of formality. And anyone who is formal, is despised as a formalist.

 

[DMcFadden]

As a child of the 60s (once with the long hair and really bushy beard to prove it), I HATED the implicatons of "Rev." back in '78, eschewing it scrupulously. Upon receiving my D.Min. in '82, it was a delight to go by "Dr." in the place of "Rev." However, the implications of Matthew 23:8 trouble me even more.

"Pastor" would seem to balance the admonitions of 1 Timothy 5:17 with the proscription of Matthew 23:8.

During most of my ministry, people in the congregation called me "Pastor" or "Pastor Dennis," particularly in more recent years and the hair began to gray. Interestingly, since I serve on the executive committee of our denomination, lead the retirement home ministry across the street from our church, and do preach at our church a few times each year, some of people insist on calling me "pastor" even now!

 

[FrielWatcher]

The pastor of my PC (USA) where I grew up received his Ph.D. and now signs his name 'Rev. Dr.' I think everyone called him Pastor Jeff though.

I have seen "The Right Reverend ..." How's about using that title?

Yet titles of respect are required for the position of either called authority or granted authority. Like I have a very hard time calling my professors by their first names because of their granted authority given by the college over the class. That may be a carryover from the Navy though.

 

[Mushroom]

So "Hey, Preacher Boy!" isn't good enough?

Preacher Boy Dennis sounds cool to me....

 

[FrielWatcher]

Mister Pastor?

 

[KMK]

I think there's a shorter way to arrive at "self-righteous informality". Many people see their informality as being somehow meritorious, and pride themselves on it: informality becomes as rigidly codified and demanding as any sort of formality. And anyone who is formal, is despised as a formalist.

i.e. the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt!

The previous Pastor of the church I pastor now came to visit one Sunday and told to "Take that darn tie off!" He was visibly offended that I wore a tie. I didn't know what to say.

 

[DMcFadden]

I think there's a shorter way to arrive at "self-righteous informality". Many people see their informality as being somehow meritorious, and pride themselves on it: informality becomes as rigidly codified and demanding as any sort of formality. And anyone who is formal, is despised as a formalist.

i.e. the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt!

The previous Pastor of the church I pastor now came to visit one Sunday and told to "Take that darn tie off!" He was visibly offended that I wore a tie. I didn't know what to say.

Hah! I wear a suit and bow tie (since Zenas converted me to bow ties a couple of months ago) every day to work. So, UNLESS I'm preaching, it is a polo shirt and cheap Walmart "Dockers" clone pants. I spoke a couple of weeks ago and one of our newer visitors "complained" Sunday that he misses my bow tie.

 

[Mushroom]

i.e. the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt!

I thought that was formal wear! And here all along I'm thinking the strange looks I've been getting was because I was overdressed! I even tried to 'casualize' with sandals, but still get the looks....

 

[JonathanHunt]

Quite frankly, all the objections to Reverend I've seen are due to one's own anecdotal experiences or the import of sinful pride to title bearer. Just because one feels or thinks that it is pretentious or prideful, et cetera, doesn't make it so.

What of Mr Spurgeon's objections, Joshua?

 

[Pergamum]

From Calvinists I have seen MUCH MORE stuffy formalism than I have self-righteous informalism. Let me correct that....I guess one needs to delete the adjectives "Stuffy" and "Self-rightous" because we cannot know the motives.

Corrected statement: In our circles I have seen a much higher emphasis on dressing up rather than dressing as one normally does throughout the week.


And I have never seen a hawaiian shirt in any reformed churches, though I have seen folks that think that a tie and a suit is necessary for laymen as well as pastor.

I am confident that the pendelum is not going to swing too far in the direction of informalism among our circles.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

See these threads for dressing for the Lord's Day...

http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/dress-code-church-3338/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/sunday-best-casual-31254/

 

[kvanlaan]

I don't know, Perg, I see too much informalism in the BR circles, way too much. In my home church, the transformation from 'Dominee'/Reverend to "Pastor (insert first name here)" was accompanied by the removal of the pulpit from its place at the center of the raised area at the front of the church, a change in the list of songs sung, an increase in 'entertainment' in worship, and general theological dilution. For me, I'll stick with Dominee for the most part (especially pastors of Dutch background) or Reverend, especially if the gentleman is older. "Pastor" is about as informal as it gets (usually for good buddies only, but maybe younger ministers). Scriptual background on that: none. Just a personal idiosyncrasy.

 

[markkoller]

Most objections that I have seen here and elsewhere are purely an opinion and usually these objections are by people who prefer church to be informal.

Actually, my question was 'which is more BIBLICAL, not which one do you prefer.

I attend a church where most of the men wear suits, the minister reads from the King James version, he wears a Genevan gown... it is anything but bluejeans and such.

I just do not see the usage of 'Reverend' in the Scriptures or in our confessional statements (I am willing to be corrected though). I am not hard and fast against the term, but I see that pastor is a more biblical title given to the men that hold the office of overseer.... of course, in classic KJV language, I guess we could go with Bishop as well!

I haven't really argued that any term was more Biblical or not(though I realize this was the original question). All of the terms are acceptable and biblical. The respect due to ministers is implied all throughout the New Testament, so Rev. does not violate Scripture.

1 Timothy 5:17 "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine."

I really don't care what they call me, as long as they call me for dinner . Just kidding, I like Rev. because it emphasizes what everyone seems to so easily forget...the office of elder/minister is one that demands great respect and honor.

 

[Elimelek]

In South Africa the titles of ministers can be quite confusing. Due to eleven official languages, a you may be called: Dominee (Afrikaans), reverend (English), umfundisi (Zulu-Nguni etc.), moruti (Sotho-language group),bafunsi (Venda-Tsonga-Shangaan) and pastor (again English).

If someone doesn't feel comfortable to call me by my name, I prefer Dominee due to the various indigenous independent churches in the country.

I don't think that one can really say that the use of any specific title is Biblical or not, as title were not used the same way as we use it today.

Pastor is usually used in S.A. to indicate a minister of charismatic and pentecostal persuasion, while Reverend is used more for Methodists and some Presbyterian churches. Dominee is often used for Reformed ministers (even in English). umfundisi, moruti and bafunsi can be used for almost any preacher (ordained or not).

I answer to all, prefer my name, but use mr. in correspondence not pertaining to my vocation. In a military or police environment I always use dominee.

Some people in S.A. are of the opinion that title and learnedness goes together. A pastor would be someone with limited theological education (less than 3 years study), a reverend / dominee more that 3 years of theological study usually 6 and more.

In pentecostal churches like the Apostolic Faith Mission, some ministers will be called reverend if they studied at a reformed theological faculty.

 

[brymaes]

We call our clergy "Father"

 

[Pergamum]

I don't know, Perg, I see too much informalism in the BR circles, way too much. In my home church, the transformation from 'Dominee'/Reverend to "Pastor (insert first name here)" was accompanied by the removal of the pulpit from its place at the center of the raised area at the front of the church, a change in the list of songs sung, an increase in 'entertainment' in worship, and general theological dilution. For me, I'll stick with Dominee for the most part (especially pastors of Dutch background) or Reverend, especially if the gentleman is older. "Pastor" is about as informal as it gets (usually for good buddies only, but maybe younger ministers). Scriptual background on that: none. Just a personal idiosyncrasy.

Wow, that informalism goes much further than mere dress and title...its affecting the architecture!

 

[Theognome]

I prefer the term pastor when referring to teaching elders, though I do sometimes use Luke's honorific 'Most Excellent Graceandpeace'

Theognome

 

[kvanlaan]

Wow, that informalism goes much further than mere dress and title...its affecting the architecture!

Indeed - and once it gathers speed, there is no stopping it!