Resources on why we accept any trinitarian baptism

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Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Mr. Duncan,

If you are so serious about maintaining the doctrine of our ecclesiastical forefathers, then I beg you, can you name one of the reformed ministers that expressed the position that Roman baptisms are invalid before that of Thornwell? Unless, that is, you believe that Presbyterianism began in America...

Thanks in advance,

Jeff,
As a Teaching Elder ordained by the PCA, I am (willingly) constrained by the Standards of my denomination. As you know, being Reformed refers to my theology, being Presbyterian (strictly speaking) refers to my form of church government. (Though I do believe that presbyterian government is part and parcel of being Reformed, but that's another issue.)

WCF 31.3 declares that it is the role and duty of "œsynods and councils" to decide matters of the faith. This responsibility is not a prerogative that is given to individual men no matter how intelligent, influential or helpful he may be. Thus, I am profoundly impressed by the humility of the men who wrote the PCA´s minority report (these were the men on the study committee who recommended granting the legitimacy of RC baptisms) when they concede "“ in the face of the Majority report which was contrary to their own position,
Whereas God alone determines the efficacy (inward, spiritual grace) signified by the outward signs, it is the Church itself which must ministerially determine the validity and regularity or propriety of baptisms, in the same manner as it determines the validity (credibility) of professions of faith of those seeking membership in the Church. For, it was to the Church itself that Christ assigned the authority of the keys of the Kingdom and the responsibility of carrying out His Great Commission (Matt 28:18-20). As the report of the 159th General Synod of the RPCES correctly observed, the church thus extends or withholds the sacraments in its declaratory and ministerial capacity as the God-appointed pillar and foundation of God´s truth (1 Tim 3:15). The Church ministerially declares administration of the sacraments to be valid (or, invalid) on the basis of the presence (or absence) of outward, discernible elements which constitute the criteria for validity (Larger Catechism 163). It is not, therefore, the prerogative of individuals within the church, nor of recipients of the sacrament to declare a baptism to be valid or invalid.

While the next to last sentence in this quote is obviously the point at which the minority report differs from the majority report, the last sentence is instructive: it is not the prerogative of individuals to determine the validity or invalidity of a baptism. That belongs to the courts of the Church.

Thus, when men speak it is helpful. Calvin is helpful. Luther is helpful. Hodge is helpful. Thornwell is helpful. Dabney is helpful. But none of these men constitute a court of the Church.

When a court of the Church decides, it is patently unPresbyterian to argue that one man had his way. This is especially true when the highest court in the Church repeatedly affirms a given position. Hodge, THE (and I note THE) great voice of American Presbyterian dissent, noted in his article that in the 1845 Old School GA, the GA voted 169 to 8 (with 6 abstaining) to rule RC baptisms invalid. That is hardly a close call. Since that time with almost 100% unanimity, the GAs have decided the same thing: Roman "œbaptisms" are not baptisms. In fact, as of the date of the publication of the Study Committee´s appendix in 1987, only ONE GA/Synod had voted to grant the legitimacy of RC baptisms, that being the RPCES´s 1981 Synod. Even then, they granted the legitimacy of Roman baptisms because they believed that Roman baptisms meet Hodge´s 3rd requirement, that is that they are intending to obey Christ´s command.

It seems like what is going on in this thread is a lot of arguing along the lines of a "œpersonality cult." Again, according to the Confession it belongs to the courts of the church to decide, not to individuals.

But I will grant for a moment that Thornwell was likely the leading voice to marshal together the arguments that ultimately led to an apparent total uniformity of opinion in the minds of over 100 years of American presbyters. However, while Thornwell may have been the first to put 2 and 2 together, the constituent arguments were not created by him. For instance, in 1790 the GA made a correlation between "œtrue church and true ordinances" with a corollary of a "œfalse church and invalid ordinances." This is because of WCF 25.3. Furthermore, in 1835 the GA declared that the RC cannot be called a Christian Church. It was only a matter of time before someone put the two together... who knows, perhaps both of these GAs would have made a decision similar to that of the 1845 Old School GA. Unfortunately, we'll never know because the question of the legitimacy of Roman baptisms never came up at those GAs.

As a result, the decision of the GA of 1845 states, "œAs certainly then, as the dogmas and practices of papal Rome are not the holy religion of Christ, must it be conceded, that the papal body is not a Church of Christ"¦; and if not, then"¦ the rite they call baptism, is not, in any sense, to be regarded as valid Christian baptism." Remember, this decision passed by a vote of 169 to 8. Furthermore, these presbyters (Old School conservatives, not New School "œprogressives", mind you!) had access to Luther, Calvin"¦ Hodge. Every subsequent GA has had access to the same arguments and yet virtually all of them have decided against accepting Roman baptisms.

Now, my denomination has essentially decided to not decide. That is, as far as I´m aware, the policy of the PCA is to allow each Session to decide. Thus there is room for charitable disagreement.

What I don´t like, and do not appreciate, is the attitude and approach of some of the Presbyterians on this site who place the writings of those who are NOT courts of the Church as if they are determinative of what is and isn´t faithfulness to Christ and His Word. That power belongs to the courts.

As a teaching elder, I would concede to the decision of my session, but I would try to get them to see what so many presbyters have seen, namely, that RC baptisms are no baptisms at all.

[Edited on 9-17-2006 by SolaScriptura]
 
Ben,

I´m only approaching it from the possession of the believer´s conscience and not the court of the church as to church practice. The minute I perceive that I cannot appeal to the Scriptures or those clearly called in history to bring forth the Gospel by ANY group is the minute I consider whether I should leave that group if such persists. I would not do so lightly or without due diligence but none-the-less as ANY Christian would confess, I am bound by the Word of God and not the church courts. I am only bound by the church courts in as much as she is faithful to Whom she answers. That´s not rebellion but discerning whether or not the shepherd is faithfully feeding the sheep Christ or not. As Christ said the sheep will not hear any voice excepting the voice of Christ via the under shepherds, all others he will flee.

As you say, it is charitably left open in the PCA, we accept their baptisms at our church. In as much as it is left open and in as much as the conscience of the believer is bound only by the Word of God and in as much as the believer´s conscience is crucial, for we are to love those whom Christ died for above all else, then it is incumbent upon the under shepherds to place great care here. When the under shepherds make statements that the words of institution, that is God´s Word, His voices is of little relevance concerning the sacraments and that the ecclesiastical body is greater, then great alarm is necessary. For one is not under mining Rome, which who would disagree with that, but one is undermining the Sacraments of Grace so crucially dear to the heart of the believer (this was exactly the Anabaptist problem), in an unhealthy zeal against Rome they destroyed the very Gospel in the Sacraments. And that will not be taken lightly in the highest court of heaven.

If one heads down the path that the Words of institution and meanings behind them are irrelevant or lesser weighted than church courts, then all is meaningless and who can know if they at all were baptized truly unless it was by a very very very particular group setting forth the definition? The words of institution and meanings behind them are not of small relevance but the highest of all. After all it is the Word and Message of God to us, not church courts or church governments. Churches and denominations will come and go as 6000+ years of fallen history prove without exception, but the Word of God remains forever.

If you place the "œcourts" of the church above the Gospel, then you´ve lost the entire point of the courts in the first place, to guard the Gospel and sheep. I´ve seen this very phenomena among the SB and been intimately involved at the leadership level of this very thing. They perceive a problem in their denomination but they think the solution is to go back to the good ole days of elder led leadership and so forth. That is merely a tool, the real problem is that the Gospel itself is for the most part not at all in their Word preached, worship service or sacraments (not all but a large bulk of them & SB know EXACTLY what I´m talking about). I´ve seen churches ripped apart over this issue, when they should have been preaching the Gospel to make amends, even in the face of opposition (One is not really being persecuted if one is just being thrown out on their ear for forcing mere governing changes in a church, that´s just a good ole fashion secular power struggle with churchy language annexed to it).

No, it is the Gospel that is primary even at the sacrifice of ANY church government. If a church government puts itself as prime, then all is lost whether we speak of Episcopalian, Presbyterian or Congregational. The Church does not exist on this earth for its institutional government but for the Gospel which is from start to finish Christ and him crucified. The church government serves the Gospel and NEVER the other way around. When the church government fails at this guardianship, then it is to be eschewed for idolatry in the form of church government has arisen.

If you think all that I´ve written is unto rebellion then you´ve missed the point of what I´m saying OR I´ve been unclear which is quite possible. If so, I apologize in advance.

Blessings In Christ Alone,

Larry
 
Ben,
You write:

Now, my denomination has essentially decided to not decide. That is, as far as I´m aware, the policy of the PCA is to allow each Session to decide. Thus there is room for charitable disagreement.

If the issue is so etched in stone why is it that the PCA leaves it up to individual bodies to make personal decisions? Why is it not law for them to follow Hodge and his decision?

Have I misunderstood what you are saying?

You add:

"œAs certainly then, as the dogmas and practices of papal Rome are not the holy religion of Christ, must it be conceded, that the papal body is not a Church of Christ"¦; and if not, then"¦ the rite they call baptism, is not, in any sense, to be regarded as valid Christian baptism."

What was the above based upon?

I would like you to comment on Hodge's statement I previously mentioned, as well as the above statemrnt in regards to apostolic succesionism.



[Edited on 9-17-2006 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Ben,
You write:

Now, my denomination has essentially decided to not decide. That is, as far as I´m aware, the policy of the PCA is to allow each Session to decide. Thus there is room for charitable disagreement.

If the issue is so etched in stone why is it that the PCA leaves it up to individual bodies to make personal decisions? Why is it not law for them to follow Hodge and his decision?

Have I misunderstood what you are saying?

Perhaps I misunderstand what you're saying. Hodge argued that we SHOULD accept Roman baptisms. His criteria for a legitimate baptism is essentially threefold... that a legitimate baptism is one in which there is 1)washing with water, 2) with the Trinitarian formula, and 3) with the intent to obey Christ's command.

ALL I'm saying is that no American Presbyterian/Reformed GA/Synod bought his argument until the RPCES 1981 General Synod sided with him. I brought this up because of your (and others) claim that to accept Roman baptism is THE only correct way and that ANY other option is contrary to the Reformed faith. I happen to appreciate the flexibility given to the local church Session by the PCA. While I am opposed to accepting Roman baptisms, I can appreciate the concerns of my brethren who believe we should accept them.

You add:

"œAs certainly then, as the dogmas and practices of papal Rome are not the holy religion of Christ, must it be conceded, that the papal body is not a Church of Christ"¦; and if not, then"¦ the rite they call baptism, is not, in any sense, to be regarded as valid Christian baptism."

What was the above based upon?

I would like you to comment on Hodge's statement I previously mentioned, as well as the above statemrnt in regards to apostolic succesionism.

That quote was taken from the Old School GA of 1845's written decision. Those were their words.

What Hodge statement do you reference?
 
While I am opposed to accepting Roman baptisms, I can appreciate the concerns of my brethren who believe we should accept them.

Fair enough. As well, My pastor sides w/ your position. As I said to him, this is one of those things that will not be worked out any time soon.......
 
I was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church. How am I to know or go look back upon the priest who baptized me and say that it isn't valid when I don't know if he is a Christian or not? Maybe he is 1 out 1000 priests in the RCC that are Christian (not an accurate number, just putting a number out there). I don't think I can accurately state that all people in the RCC are not Christians. Obviously, I believe the confession states that it doesn't depend on the man but the office. So if this man is a Christian, is his ordaination to his office not valid because it is from the RCC? I might ask the same question to the man who is ordained to an office in an AoG church. I don't know. I have to accept my baptism based on many other things but these are some questions I have had.
 
Andrew,

That is exactly why it is based in the Word of God, water, Trinitarian and so forth and not the man giving, receiving or the church per se. Else we'd have to question millions of Christian baptisms including my own in a Southern Baptist church. God's Word alone binds your conscience and God's Word alone can unbind it.

The very first question I asked the elders when we joined our church was this, would they require me or my wife to be "rebaptized". If so I would have had to continue on searching on that basis alone so important is a correct Gospel understanding of the sacraments. Because I WAS NOT going to sin and mock God or Christ given to me. I'd already been through the devil's rebaptism battle for 7 long dark years of my life and would rather had the sword than do that again.

The believer's conscience, the original intent of the question asked on this board is the issue at hand. The sacraments authority rests in God's name and nothing else, it is God's gift not mans.

May Christ Be Richly Yours Always,

Larry
 
Originally posted by Romans922
I was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church. How am I to know or go look back upon the priest who baptized me and say that it isn't valid when I don't know if he is a Christian or not? Maybe he is 1 out 1000 priests in the RCC that are Christian (not an accurate number, just putting a number out there). I don't think I can accurately state that all people in the RCC are not Christians. Obviously, I believe the confession states that it doesn't depend on the man but the office. So if this man is a Christian, is his ordaination to his office not valid because it is from the RCC? I might ask the same question to the man who is ordained to an office in an AoG church. I don't know. I have to accept my baptism based on many other things but these are some questions I have had.

Andrew, the WCF 27.3 cannot be taken absolutely w/o any further consideration or else 27.4 and 28.2 and 29.3 would all be meaningless. Furthermore, the WCF's prohibition of receiving the Lord's Supper from a priest (29.4) would likewise be out of line.

As virtually every GA/Synod ruling on the subject has decided, the question of the validity of Roman baptisms is NOT analagous to the Donatist controversy. From the 1987 committee report:

That earlier Donatist controversy dealt with the question of a minister who succumbed momentarily to the pressure of persecution. The church in which he ministered was more or less pure in upholding the Gospel. His succumbing to the pressure of persecution did not thus invalidate the sacraments he had administered.

The situation in view in the Roman Catholic priesthood is not that which our Confession and the Donatist controversy addresses. It is that of a ministry and a church which, in the words of Paul describing the false teachers of Galatia, preach "a different gospel, which is not another," "distort the gospel of Christ" and thus lie under the Apostolic judgment, "let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:6-9). Therefore, inevitably, in this case, Romish church and Romish ministry are evaluated alike.

In other words, Andrew... in regards to your situation, you don't NEED to "worry" about the spiritual state of the RC priest who performed the rite on you, because IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that he is a false teacher, under apostolic anathema, in a false ministry, under apostolic anathema, in a false church, under apostolic anathema. As such nothing they do - though it may appear in form to be Christian - can actually be considered Christian. Particularly, the sacraments belong to the Church, for induction into the visible Church, etc... therefore, by definition they cannot (note that I'm not saying SHOULD NOT) be be administered by someone outside the Church.

I encourage you (and everyone here) to read the report.
 
Again,

the fundamental error I am seeing is the confusion of what makes a sacrament/church.

Valid administration of the sacrament(s)/word make the church, not the other way around.
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Again,

the fundamental error I am seeing is the confusion of what makes a sacrament/church.

Valid administration of the sacrament(s)/word make the church, not the other way around.

Interestingly, you undermine yourself in how you phrase that last sentence. According to the WCF, a false church or a false minister CANNOT "validly" administer the sacrament. Thus, a "valid administration" of the sacrament can only (by definition!) be performed in a true church. See WCF 25.3. Likewise, 27.4 disagrees with you.
By definition, the sacraments belong to the church and are administered in and by the church. NO ONE ELSE CAN (note: not MAY) rightly administer the sacraments.

Remember: right administration of the sacraments is a mark (or sign) of a true church... what (logically) comes first? The mark, or the thing making the mark?
Right administration of the sacraments is not an ingredient that goes into a true church. There is a difference.

There is a reason why just about every GA/Synod has disagreed with you.

[Edited on 9-18-2006 by SolaScriptura]
 
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Again,

the fundamental error I am seeing is the confusion of what makes a sacrament/church.

Valid administration of the sacrament(s)/word make the church, not the other way around.

Interestingly, you undermine yourself in how you phrase that last sentence. According to the WCF, a false church or a false minister CANNOT "validly" administer the sacrament. Thus, a "valid administration" of the sacrament can only (by definition!) be performed in a true church. See WCF 25.3. Likewise, 27.4 disagrees with you.
By definition, the sacraments belong to the church and are administered in and by the church. NO ONE ELSE CAN (note: not MAY) rightly administer the sacraments.

Remember: right administration of the sacraments is a mark (or sign) of a true church... what (logically) comes first? The mark, or the thing making the mark?
Right administration of the sacraments is not an ingredient that goes into a true church. There is a difference.

There is a reason why just about every GA/Synod has disagreed with you.

Maybe "administration" wasn't the best terminology to use. How about valid sacrament? I agree that with WCF 25.3 and 27.4 that the administration must be preformed by a minister of the gospel lawfully ordained in a true branch of the visible church. However, my meaning still stands.

Let me ask you, what are the marks of a church? Does a mark of a true church include a valid baptism? If so, what determines a valid baptism...a true church?

You have to see the circular reasoning in this...
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Again,

the fundamental error I am seeing is the confusion of what makes a sacrament/church.

Valid administration of the sacrament(s)/word make the church, not the other way around.

Interestingly, you undermine yourself in how you phrase that last sentence. According to the WCF, a false church or a false minister CANNOT "validly" administer the sacrament. Thus, a "valid administration" of the sacrament can only (by definition!) be performed in a true church. See WCF 25.3. Likewise, 27.4 disagrees with you.
By definition, the sacraments belong to the church and are administered in and by the church. NO ONE ELSE CAN (note: not MAY) rightly administer the sacraments.

Remember: right administration of the sacraments is a mark (or sign) of a true church... what (logically) comes first? The mark, or the thing making the mark?
Right administration of the sacraments is not an ingredient that goes into a true church. There is a difference.

There is a reason why just about every GA/Synod has disagreed with you.

Maybe "administration" wasn't the best terminology to use. How about valid sacrament? I agree that with WCF 25.3 and 27.4 that the administration must be preformed by a minister of the gospel lawfully ordained in a true branch of the visible church. However, my meaning still stands.

Let me ask you, what are the marks of a church? Does a mark of a true church include a valid baptism? If so, what determines a valid baptism...a true church?

You have to see the circular reasoning in this...

Jeff, a couple things:

1. How does your meaning still stand? If the sacrament must be performed by a true minister in a true church, then we must decide if Rome is a true church with her minsters being true undersheperds.

2. The reasoning is only circular if we hold the notion that the signs, or marks of a church stand in isolation from the church (and each other!) and those signs determine, or come together, to make a true church. However, if we look at the marks as being signs to point us to true churches, then we can see that the marks are simply confirmatory of something that is. Following 1 Cor 15:3, the chief and most important sign of a true church is the Gospel rightly preached. All other signs are subordinate to this, as Paul himself declares the Gospel message to have "first importance."
 
I have been following this debate with some interest. I don't want to jump int the fray but I believe you overstated your position that "no presbyterian bodies accepted RC baptism".

I will have to confirm later but I am almost certain that the CofS, PCofC, and the ARP DO consider RC baptism valid Ben.
 
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Jeff, a couple things:

1. How does your meaning still stand? If the sacrament must be performed by a true minister in a true church, then we must decide if Rome is a true church with her minsters being true undersheperds.

2. The reasoning is only circular if we hold the notion that the signs, or marks of a church stand in isolation from the church (and each other!) and those signs determine, or come together, to make a true church. However, if we look at the marks as being signs to point us to true churches, then we can see that the marks are simply confirmatory of something that is. Following 1 Cor 15:3, the chief and most important sign of a true church is the Gospel rightly preached. All other signs are subordinate to this, as Paul himself declares the Gospel message to have "first importance."

According to this line of reasoning, what makes the RCC worse than apostate Protestant churches teaching false gospels?
For example, the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel? Or the "you can save yourself? gospel? Or "you have to be baptized to be saved."

It may be that the RCC administers the sacrament of baptism almost more Biblically than some churches, like the Church of Christ for example.

So I guess, where do we draw the line between RCC & apostate Protestant?
 
Originally posted by Kevin
I have been following this debate with some interest. I don't want to jump int the fray but I believe you overstated your position that "no presbyterian bodies accepted RC baptism".

I will have to confirm later but I am almost certain that the CofS, PCofC, and the ARP DO consider RC baptism valid Ben.

That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that every American Presbyterian/Reformed GA/Synod - with one exception - up until the writing of the PCA's position paper in 1987, when dealing with the question of the validity of Roman baptism, has sided with it being invalid.
 
Ben,
By "American" do you mean PCUS/PCUSA?
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Originally posted by Kevin
I have been following this debate with some interest. I don't want to jump int the fray but I believe you overstated your position that "no presbyterian bodies accepted RC baptism".

I will have to confirm later but I am almost certain that the CofS, PCofC, and the ARP DO consider RC baptism valid Ben.

That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that every American Presbyterian/Reformed GA/Synod - with one exception - up until the writing of the PCA's position paper in 1987, when dealing with the question of the validity of Roman baptism, has sided with it being invalid.
 
I'll check, but again i think the ARP is not on your side on this one.

If you are limiting you focus to American presbterianism I think that is far too narrow. After all it is "possible" that a particular error could be widspread within one nation but unknown outside of it.

Sorry I said I would stay out of this!

BTW this does seem to be a "distinctly american" issue.
 
Chris, Kevin, et al...

Read the Committee Report. I posted it near the beginning of this thread.

I only have about one more week to be at home before the army splits up my family until after Christmas. So pardon me, but I believe I've taken enough time from my family to discuss this matter... I'm done.
 
Ben,
Pardon me for asking a simple question.
All,
It does appear from the paragraph I found that the report is only dealing with GAs and Synods that have dealt with the question, PCUS/PCUSA, UPC, RPCES and the Cumberlands. So it does not address denoms where a change may have never been sought, like the ARP if Kevin is correct.
 
Chris,

I apologize - I wasn't trying to be rude. It is just a simple matter of time management. I hope you understand.

Ben
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Valid administration of the sacrament(s)/word make the church, not the other way around.

Jeff, you hit the nail on the head there!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Valid administration of the sacrament(s)/word make the church, not the other way around.


Jeff, you hit the nail on the head there!

Bingo! Jeff your analysis still stands.

Else NO ONE can see the church OR KNOW what is the true church.

Stepping back at the 50,000 foot view for overall analysis: We see that the whole of the post of the arguments being introduced counter to this position PROVE THAT very FACT rather baldly. THAT's why the counter arguments are being argued and causing confusion - it becomes "what is the church". The very question when the counter arguments arise - arise BECAUSE without the Word & Sacarments being the basis the VERY first question arises immediately, then where is the church? Then multiple manmade theories arise to answer this (here is the church, there is the church, our denomination can trace Apostolic origins, no our denomination can show continuity and etc... If the definition does not lie in the OBJECTIVE WORD & SACRAMENTS.

The RCC church may still be the great whore of babylon, but there sure are certainly a lot of protestant strumpets running around out there. They just don't have official Trent anathemas written down whereby they can be pinned down on their denial of the Gospel. They are more like modern politicians, they slip around on denying the Gospel like a greasy eel.

Ldh
 
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