Representing a Divine Person as speaking

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py3ak

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There are many ways in which words have been, so to speak, put in the mouth of one of the Persons of the Trinity; but are all those ways equivalent, and are they all bad?

One way of "putting words in God's mouth" no one who subscribes to the Confession (and indeed, I think no one who has thought clearly about the matter) can object to: that of drawing out the consequences of what God has said in Scripture, so as to make explicit what was contained there implicitly. This of course is not adding to God's word except in the very rigid sense that the precise form of words was not used before. But since the meaning of Scripture is Scripture, this would hardly come into consideration, and at any rate is something we all ought to be agreed upon.

Another way of putting words in God's mouth about which we can all agree is when someone attributes to him something not contained in Scripture, as when the Q'uran or the Book of Mormon are held to be inspired Scripture, when false doctrine is preached, when someone shares an impulse of their heart or a fantasy of their imagination as being a word from the Lord.

But there are other ways about which we do not all agree.

Take, for instance, this excerpt from a sermon by Benjamin Grosvenor where Christ is represented as saying:
Go into all nations and offer this salvation as you go; but lest the poor house of Israel should think themselves abandoned to despair, the seed of Abraham, mine ancient friend; as cruel and unkind as they have been, go, make them the first offer of grace; let them that struck the rock, drink first of its refreshing streams; and they that drew my blood, be welcome to its healing virtue. Tell them, that as I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, so, if they will be gathered, I will be their shepherd still. Though they despised my tears which I shed over them, and imprecated my blood to be upon them, tell them 'twas for their sakes I shed both; that by my tears I might soften their hearts towards God, and by my blood I might reconcile God to them.....Tell them, you have seen the prints of the nails upon my hands and feet, and the wounds of the spear in my side; and that those marks of their cruelty are so far from giving me vindictive thoughts, that, if they will but repent, every wound they have given me speaks in their behalf, pleads with the Father for the remission of their sins, and enables me to bestow it.....Nay, if you meet that poor wretch that thrust the spear into my side, tell him there is another way, a better way, of coming at my heart. If he will repent, and look upon him whom he has pierced, and will mourn, I will cherish him in that very bosom he has wounded; he shall find the blood he shed an ample atonement for the sin of shedding it. And tell him from me, he will put me to more pain and displeasure by refusing this offer of my blood, than when he first drew it forth.

Now Christ never uttered this form of words; but for the purpose of making an impression, the preacher speaks in the person of Christ, he uses the first person to represent Christ's mind. Assuming that only sound doctrine is thus presented, is this rhetorical device acceptable? Is this sort of impersonation and imagination appropriate, or does it lack reverence? I believe it is not uncommon for preachers to do this - certainly some of Luther's sermons are riddled with long passages in which he uses the first person, speaking to the people as God or as Christ.

Another way of putting words in God's mouth is by supplementing the information given in Scripture: that could be by using history, archaeology, or imagination to help to realize the scenes of Scripture. This technique of course is also widely used, and in many instances it seems difficult to object. Many preachers and other interpreters of Scripture certainly do try to open up the psychology of the given characters who appear in a passage, sometimes with great effect. Again, what is the proper view of this? Is it unexceptionable? Is it a useful tool but one liable to abuse? Is it a perversion of Scripture?

Yet another method would be to "fill in the gaps' - to use imagination or research to fill in the backstory of certain characters or places in Scripture - something along the lines of what is done in Ben-Hur or The Bronze Bow. I would like to hear opinions as to the legitimacy or illegitimacy of this as well. And does it make any difference how it is presented, whether simply as "historical fiction" or also as "devotional literature"? Obviously if in this retelling the depiction given by Scripture is modified or distorted an unacceptable line has been crossed; but what about things that strictly occupy the silences of Scripture? For example, I remember finding in one book some story about a little girl who heard Jesus' words about forgiving seventy times seven times and who did some multiplication in the sand.

The final approach that I can think of would be when a story or other work of art has a figure which in some way parallels Christ - this seems rather tricky to me, because many such parallels are unintended and unconscious; some are blasphemous mockeries; some are ham-fisted; and some are materially unobjectionable, even if one decides that formally all such things should be condemned. Of course, it would be rather difficult to condemn all such parallels without simply condemning all stories not contained in Scripture - it is rather difficult to write a story without a princess and a dragon and prince on a white horse in one way or another. From the Aztec myth of Nanauatl to Tyr putting his hand in the mouth of the wolf, much of art and literature echoes more or less distinctly with the structure that is perfectly carried out in the life of Christ.

I am interested to hear people's thoughts upon the matter.
 
py3ak said:
The final approach that I can think of would be when a story or other work of art has a figure which in some way parallels Christ
Another one that is similar to this one that some friends and I were discussing some weeks ago was directly representing Christ Himself in some fictional story (that is, Christ is a character in the story, who speaks and acts directly and in person). I can't recall whether Milton did this in Paradise Lost, though in that case, it's more like "historical fiction", rather than fiction in general? It's been a while since I read that.

Another related instance I can think of are various Christian fiction novels where perhaps prayers are answered or the works of Providence tend to work towards one end or another, but I guess that isn't technically a divine person speaking (unless the answer to prayer involves that in the story), so perhaps that is best saved for a different thread. There's plenty in this one already.
 
Ruben, is this in any way useful?

Did Christ say "I am"
or
Did Christ Say " Εγω Ειμι"
or
Did Christ say "Ich bin"

Carl F.H. Henry argued that "the smallest unit of truth is a proposition, not an isolated word.
When we say that Christ said "I am the way, and I am the Truth, and I am also the Life" we are in effect quoting Him in so many words. What we have said that Christ said (Λογος) is propositionally true and consistent with the literal (Ρημα) which His human mouth spoke and human ears heard.
 
2Co 5:20    Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

How does this fit into the scheme of things Ruben?
 
The Form For the Administration of the Lord's Supper in the 3 Forms of Unity has this mode of speech, " Secondly. And that we might firmly believe that we belong to this covenant of grace, the Lord Jesus Christ, in his last Supper, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his disciples and said, "Take, eat, this is my body which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of me; in like manner also after supper he took the cup, gave thanks and said, Drink ye all of it; this cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you and for many, for the remission of sins; this do ye as often as ye drink it in remembrance of me": that is, as often as ye eat of this bread and drink of this cup, you shall thereby as by a sure remembrance and pledge, be admonished and assured of this my hearty love and faithfulness towards you; that, whereas you should otherwise have suffered eternal death, I have given my body to the death of the cross, and shed my blood for you; and as certainly feed and nourish your hungry and thirsty souls with my crucified body, and shed blood, to everlasting life, as this bread is broken before your eyes, and this cup is given to you, and you eat and drink the same with your mouth, in remembrance of me."
 
If the speaker is competent and the listeners are paying decent attention, no one will mistake using the first person "voice" of God to create an impression for the actual words of God. So the preacher who says, "God tells you today, 'Turn from your sin and come to me!'" is being neither deceptive nor misrepresenting the word of God. Those exact words aren't in Scripture, but the content is sound and the technique is allowable, in my opinion.

Using our imagination to fill in gaps in the Bible story or to create Jesus-based fiction is a much bigger concern. Some paraphrasing is fine so long as the wording is carefully considered based on good exegesis. Likewise, some Bible-based speculation of conversations that might have taken place are okay if handled carefully and if clearly presented as speculation. This is simply good meditation on and teaching of the word. But we must recognize that predicting what Jesus might have said in any given situation is a hazardous exercise. In the records we do have, his words are constantly surprising people. So I'm uncomfortable with too much speculation and, in general, with any fiction (historical or otherwise) that inserts God into the story.

As for literary parallels, I don't see how we can criticize any author merely for using a character that parallels Christ. Aren't we all supposed to live, in some sense, as real-life parallels of Christ? Any godly literature must contain some such parallels. And if it's bad literature, advocating evil or wrongheaded theology, then it's blasphemous on that account already regardless of whether or not a wrongly represented parallel of Christ was intended.
 
This sort of speech is dotted throughout Calvin's commentaries, and no doubt his sermons as well, though I've read fewer of them.
 
Jack K said:
If the speaker is competent and the listeners are paying decent attention, no one will mistake using the first person "voice" of God to create an impression for the actual words of God. So the preacher who says, "God tells you today, 'Turn from your sin and come to me!'" is being neither deceptive nor misrepresenting the word of God. Those exact words aren't in Scripture, but the content is sound and the technique is allowable, in my opinion.
rbcbob said:
When we say that Christ said "I am the way, and I am the Truth, and I am also the Life" we are in effect quoting Him in so many words. What we have said that Christ said (Λογος) is propositionally true and consistent with the literal (Ρημα) which His human mouth spoke and human ears heard.

"And, that their humble endeavours might take a particular aim, he selects one particular precept, which, in the text, he impresses with all that dignity, authority, and force of persuasion, which the lips of such a Master, in such circumstances, could give it: "This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you." As though he had spoken thus: "My dear disciples and friends, I have dealt very familiarly with you. These years past, you have been admitted to intimate acquaintance with me. Much you have seen of what I am, and of what is in my heart towards you. Now I am going to the cross to die, and to heaven to plead for you. I have been healing your sorrows, and showing you the consolations which shall flow from my departure. I have also warned you of the necessity of your aspiring after higher degrees of love to me, and obedience to my words, than hitherto you have attained. Are you not willing to comply with my counsels? Here, then, is one injunction, which it will be your wisdom specially to regard. I am leaving you behind me; and you are to be exalted to situations of high trust in my kingdom. This is my dying charge to you, my bereaved family, 'Love one another': Be closely cemented together: Beware of divisions: Let the whole extent of my expanded kingdom be knit together in your persons: Let your union be of a superior nature to the combinations of worldly men: Love one another, not as the world loveth, but 'as I have loved you': Transmit the example of love like mine, to all after generations of my people."

Such, my brethren, is the general sense of the passage." (happened across this sermon here)

JOwen said:
that is, as often as ye eat of this bread and drink of this cup

Maybe that is the key to this kind of speech then: that they are drawing out the sense of Scripture and the truths it gives, and so given that Scripture is God's Word, it is allowable to say that God says that; hence, giving a reason for that sort of technique. Hmm.
 
Raymond, Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained are both good examples of Christ (and indeed God the Father) appearing as characters in a story. I wonder if it would be possible to distinguish between moral fables and more complex relations in that connection: sticking with this example, it might be illustrated by the difference between a short anecdote in the Talmud and Paradise Lost. I meant to include that as a separate category last night, but just overlooked it. While it is very similar to "filling in the gaps" there is nothing that would limit such an approach to that - e.g., one could have a story that wasn't supplementing a Scriptural narrative, but didn't even have a point of contact with Scripture history. Technically a joke would fall into this category, although one might object to that on other grounds.

It seems that presenting the meaning of the word of God in an amplified form of direct speech is widely accepted and attested - thanks to each of you for the additional references. The 3FU Form of Administration citation is pretty clear in showing that such a form of direct address was quite acceptable in the Reformed churches. I thought that was probably the least problematic of the ways of "putting words in God's mouth" which I identified as questionable. And Jack, that is a very good point about Christ's words tending to be unexpected.

Bob, the question of translation wouldn't affect most of the categories, I don't believe. Certainly if it's OK to do something in Greek it's OK to do it in German (not speaking of grammar, of course).

Randy, I would think 2 Corinthians 5:20 refers to the function of those who have received the ministry of reconciliation. I can see how someone could think that if the function is to represent Christ, then speech that follows that mode is not unauthorized. That would fall into the "amplified form of direct speech," which I would like to call personation, but am not sure if that term will be generally understood. If it relates to any of the other categories, I am not sure how.

Mr. Rafalsky, I very much appreciate the content of that post you linked. While reading it, a question I had not considered before struck me, which has to do with the style we attribute to God. Many instances could be given, and some have been given, of true words being "put in God's mouth" by the technique of personation. As it seems this acceptable to do, is the question of style also a consideration? When Luther speaks as though he were Christ, the style is recognizably Luther. Is that better because he's not pretending to be able to imitate the OT? Or is that a deficiency, and he should have attempted in all such passages to speak with the simplicity and majesty which God has in Scripture where he is the speaker?

I'm still interested to hear additional thoughts on the other categories as well. We apparently agree that personation is acceptable; and I agree with Jack that parallels cannot be condemned. But what about using imagination to amplify Scripture's narrative? What about supplementing Scripture? What about using the Lord as a character in your novel?
 
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Thanks for your feedback, Ruben. It is a fearsome thing to me to attribute words to the living God. Though in this case (To The KKK) not to have done so would have been wrong for me. I think that's the only time I've ever done it (to my remembrance).

I think style is crucial. As you well put it, the simplicity and majesty ought be caught, and how can one do that except the Lord help? It is inspiration from the Lord, although in a far lower sense than His inspiring His own word. It is a poetic license, but a holy one, and one must seek the Lord to enable it.

In my younger days as a Christian, days of woeful and ignominious failure, words from Thompson's poem rang in my ears, and I took them as words which spoke God's heart to me;


'All things betray thee, who betrayest Me'

'Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me.'

'Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,
Save Me, save only Me?'​


And five of the stanzas of "How Firm A Foundation" have that same quality of profound simplicity and majesty. The last verse:


‘The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose
I will not, I will not desert to its foes;
that soul, though all hell should endeavour to shake,
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake!’​


In the hymnody of the church is some of the finest spiritual poetry extant.
 
py3ak said:
Raymond, Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained are both good examples of Christ (and indeed God the Father) appearing as characters in a story. I wonder if it would be possible to distinguish between moral fables and more complex relations in that connection: sticking with this example, it might be illustrated by the difference between a short anecdote in the Talmud and Paradise Lost. I meant to include that as a separate category last night, but just overlooked it. While it is very similar to "filling in the gaps" there is nothing that would limit such an approach to that - e.g., one could have a story that wasn't supplementing a Scriptural narrative, but didn't even have a point of contact with Scripture history. Technically a joke would fall into this category, although one might object to that on other grounds.
Hmm. I seem to find myself uncomfortable such direct representations of Christ (I'm not sure about intentionally direct parallels yet, e.g., Aslan), though I know not why. Are there any historical critiques of Milton that might shed some light on this question?
 
Perhaps this line of reasoning might be helpful in looking at this, given the Second and Third commandment context in which the question originally arose?

One of the arguments used against making images of Jesus is that if the image stirs our devotion, then we violate the Second commandment, but if the image does not stir our devotion, we violate the Third. The argument has two assumptions: (1) images of Jesus ought to stir our devotion, and (2) it is wrong to worship God by images. I wonder if we could apply something similar here, given that we know the Second commandment forbids worshipping God by anything not appointed for that purpose? If the words attributed to the divine person speaking stirs our devotion, we violate the Second commandment, but if the words do not stir our devotion, we violate the Third. The argument has two assumptions: (1) words by divine persons speaking ought to stir our devotion (seems to be backed up by Psalm 119?), and (2) it is wrong to worship God by divine persons speaking.

Obviously, in this case, premise (2) is faulty: the Word is an appointed means given to worship God by, and so we can take one of the horns of the dilemma (namely, having our devotion stirred by the words). However, it is just that: it is God's word--not the words of men--that are given as an appointed means to worship God by. Obviously, this last point must be qualified, but I'm fairly sure that whatever is founded on the word of God is seen as the word of God in a secondary sense, which is why preaching the word (and indeed, any exposition of the word, including Confessions, Creeds, and Catechisms) is seen as the word of God insofar as it aligns with Scripture? Perhaps this line of thinking may help explain why sometimes it is allowable to (carefully) represent a divine person as speaking (such as in preaching), while in other cases, it may not be (attributing words to God that He never spoke, nor are founded on the Word of God).

Perhaps then, applying this sort of thinking might be useful in clarifying the various scenarios given above? I realize it runs into a little difficulty in places (e.g., is meditation an act of specific worship? Is having one's religious devotion stirred by a piece of non-psalmodic music wrong by the above reasoning? What about representing a divine person as speaking in a song?), and I'm not sure how or whether this takes into account Milton (though Milton wasn't entirely orthodox later anyway?; though also, he apparently saw no inconsistency between his orthodox view on images and his writings), but it may not be difficult for others who have already come to conclusions on those certain matters, and those difficulties seem to be matters that arise in other contexts on their own anyway and so are only tangentially related to this particular question and are tangentially related in the same manner as they are to other questions.

The more I've thought about it, the more I'm finding Jack's reasoning above to be rather useful about how we cannot be sure how a divine person would act in some fictional scenario (historical or purely fictional), and thus, we do not know what the divine person would say.

Any thoughts?
 
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Apologies for bumping this thread (yet again). I keep finding information concerning this topic. The latest is: there was a Samuel Slater who, inspired by Milton, wrote some poetry that involved Milton's use of represnting divine persons speaking. And further, Samuel Slater appears to have been more orthodox, whereas there have been some doubts concerning Milton.
 
Consider also "Pilgrim's Progress."

There are types of Christ in there and so forth, archetypes if I use the word correctly. Pilgrim kneels before a cross and the burden falls from his back. Etc.

I'd defend his work by saying, he does not claim that "Pilgrim's Progress" is God's Word, but presents it as his own writing.
 
For those interested, I think Bunyan identifies the purpose of the Second Commandment. He applies the commandment to more than outward and visual images, even to peoples' beliefs and concepts of the Triune God. He teaches the importance of having and guarding the biblical knowledge of Him.

"...to imagine falsely of God, [is]...to break the second commandment"—John Bunyan, The works of that eminent servant of Christ, Mr. John Bunyan, Volume 5, pp. 286-287

I also provided a blog post with a little more context: IDOLATRY CONDEMNED: John Bunyan on the Second Commandment
 
So. . . you are saying there are not types of Christ, Christ figures, archetypes, similes of Christ in Pilgrim's Progress?
 
Theodore Beza gives an example of using imagination to fill out a Scriptural narrative. In A Tragedie of Abraham's Sacrifice (translated by Arthur Golding) he introduces Satan (in a monk's cowl, no less!) into Genesis 22, and gives us the thought and conversation of the characters.

A tragedie of Abraham's sacrifice written in French by Theodore Beza, and translated into English by Arthur Golding. (Open Library)

I noticed, though, that while he includes "The Angell" in the list of persons, and Abraham addresses the angel as God, only the angel speaks, and his words are by far given the least amplification.

Raymond, I think your reasoning about the 2nd and 3rd commandments is quite accurate. Representing a divine person as speaking, when that speech does not go beyond what Scripture says, is fine. But making up scenarios for God to be in, and determining that the Almighty will act or speak in this or that way does seem beyond the pale: now we are attributing our thoughts to God. Perhaps when it comes to writing fiction, we can learn from Esther that just because God is unmentioned, does not mean that he is absent.
 
Thanks for the further info!

py3ak said:
Perhaps when it comes to writing fiction, we can learn from Esther that just because God is unmentioned, does not mean that he is absent.
An excellent point! One I'll be sure to keep in mind should I ever find the subject to come up again.
 
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