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What about if someone smites you on the cheek, give him the other one? Must you smite him first, then give him both cheeks?All governments operate by power and coercion. NAP is a fantasy.
Plus, if you know somebody is gonna punch you - why not hit first? It's just good tactics. I see nothing more moral about waiting to get punched.
Jesus here is talking about insult, not assault.What about if someone smites you on the cheek, give him the other one? Must you smite him first, then give him both cheeks?
A good case for pre-emptive war for states is Israel's pre-emptive attacks against credible threats. I see no reason this does not apply to private persons. If someone breaks into your house at night, you've got to wonder what else they are willing to do to your family, you need not wait and see if he actually carries it out first. Turning aside from a harmless insult (slap on the cheek) is different than ignoring a real and present danger.What about if someone smites you on the cheek, give him the other one? Must you smite him first, then give him both cheeks?
I think it's different for governments than for private people: they ought to pre-emptively squash enemies that are a credible threat, but private folk ought to give aggressors the benefit of the doubt. What if they're just bluffing? Most threats against me have been a bluff, or could be turned aside with a soft answer.
I think this is a bit of a straw man. If someone has broken into your house that is already clear and unequivocal aggression initiated against you, so that's not a fair depiction of the NAP.A good case for pre-emptive war for states is Israel's pre-emptive attacks against credible threats. I see no reason this does not apply to private persons. If someone breaks into your house at night, you've got to wonder what else they are willing to do to your family, you need not wait and see if he actually carries it out first. Turning aside from a harmless insult (slap on the cheek) is different than ignoring a real and present danger.
I hate to admit it, but you might be correct. Perhaps shooting a person for climbing your fence is premature, they might be retrieving their football, etc. but once they go through a locked door then they seem fair game as they clearly intend to harm you and have, indeed, already harmed you through the violation of your privacy.I think this is a bit of a straw man. If someone has broken into your house that is already clear and unequivocal aggression initiated against you, so that's not a fair depiction of the NAP.
Even there I have questions. Was it at night or in broad daylight? Is it a child, or a man in a mask? Even Proverbs absolves a thief's death from bloodguilt if it happens at night... but not in the daytime.I hate to admit it, but you might be correct. Perhaps shooting a person for climbing your fence is premature, they might be retrieving their football, etc. but once they go through a locked door then they seem fair game as they clearly intend to harm you and have, indeed, already harmed you through the violation of your privacy.
Maybe, maybe not. Not all situations are the same. If someone is coming at me obviously intending to harm me, or is making verbal threats while approaching me menacingly, and there is nowhere for me to flee, I will absolutely not “let him swing first,” because that’s all it could take to end me. Why would I do that?But for an altercation in the street, I think it's best to let him swing first.
You are probably like most men and over-estimate your ability in a physical confrontation and are preparing to be made a victim.If someone enters my house at night, I'll probably club him with a saucepan and ask questions after I'm sitting on his head--he's already showing criminal violence. But for an altercation in the street, I think it's best to let him swing first.
Sure, if no women and children are also involved. Otherwise you are a coward. Sometimes they cannot run even if you can.only fight if you can’t run. then only fight until you can run.
MGP?Sure, if no women and children are also involved. Otherwise you are a coward. Sometimes they cannot run even if you can.
A righteous man who falters before the wicked Is like a murky spring and a polluted well.
I hardly think that the error of our age is that Christians are too tough and manly.I've noticed it's natural for humans to think aggressively, defensively, and violently. That's how most people are. But by God's grace we can seek peace in gentleness and love, and try our best to deescalate any situation. Self defense is not wrong, but I think the Bible paints a different picture than the typical "tough manly Christian" mentality that is common today.
I know what you mean, and I do see that as well. I was thinking of a different group of people I have experienced. But there is that group. LOLI hardly think that the error of our age is that Christians are too tough and manly.
Yes..... there is a reactionary trend among some of our reformed folks. A caricature of toughness. I believe that is what made Mark Driscoll attractive. I still like much of what the guy had to say.I know what you mean, and I do see that as well. I was thinking of a different group of people I have experienced. But there is that group. LOL
Agreed here. Not one of JP's finer moments. I wonder how, theologically, he arrived at that strange conclusion.There is only so much some of us men can stand when soft pastors like John Piper tell us he would pray with the thief who broke into his house. Trying to pray for a man assaulting your wife is to fail to provide for your own family what they most need (safety and security) and so these men are thus worse than infidels according to Scripture, at least on this one point of non-aggression and self-defense and pacifism.
Of courseSure, if no women and children are also involved. Otherwise you are a coward. Sometimes they cannot run even if you can.
A righteous man who falters before the wicked Is like a murky spring and a polluted well.
It’s not the only oneAgreed here. Not one of JP's finer moments. I wonder how, theologically, he arrived at that strange conclusion.
Influenced by baptist tradition maybe? It is better to be persecuted than to persecute others, etc. Better to suffer violence without sin than to do violence and sin in the process. But that is a false dilemma, especially when passivity before evil is itself sin.Agreed here. Not one of JP's finer moments. I wonder how, theologically, he arrived at that strange conclusion.
It's odd to me because I would think that his teaching would lend itself more to the manbro stereotype than the soyboy (sounds like a new poll in the making!). He thrives on dramatic calls to action on a wide range of subjects. You'd think he'd set apart self defense as a characteristic of biblical masculinity. I'd expect him to go off the rails maybe by saying that a women should not defend herself because femininity is yielding and compliant or some such nonsense - but for him to go where he did was a surprise to me.Influenced by baptist tradition maybe? It is better to be persecuted than to persecute others, etc. Better to suffer violence without sin than to do violence and sin in the process. But that is a false dilemma, especially when passivity before evil is itself sin.
Maybe he is fascinated by the early Church martyrs who died passively in the arena. If the civil state imprisons you and feeds you to a lion in the arena or to be killed by gladiators, you don't really have a lot of options otherwise, at that point. Or, if like Dirk Willens (sp?) Catholics are chasing you across frozen ice and they fall in and start freezing/drowning, then you might be duty-bound to save them despite their persecution of you. But the Hussites armored wagons and defeated the Catholic armies in battle many times and this is the better solution as a whole I believe to protect your family and children.It's odd to me because I would think that his teaching would lend itself more to the manbro stereotype than the soyboy (sounds like a new poll in the making!). He thrives on dramatic calls to action on a wide range of subjects. You'd think he'd set apart self defense as a characteristic of biblical masculinity. I'd expect him to go off the rails maybe by saying that a women should not defend herself because femininity is yielding and compliant or some such nonsense - but for him to go where he did was a surprise to me.
They may have died willingly (not passively, I'd argue) but they didn't sit around waiting for the Romans to capture them. They ran and hid. Resisting arrest by the state wasn't normally a viable option in Roman times.Maybe he is fascinated by the early Church martyrs who died passively in the arena. If the civil state imprisons you and feeds you to a lion in the arena or to be killed by gladiators, you don't really have a lot of options otherwise, at that point. Or, if like Dirk Willens (sp?) Catholics are chasing you across frozen ice and they fall in and start freezing/drowning, then you might be duty-bound to save them despite their persecution of you. But the Hussites armored wagons and defeated the Catholic armies in battle many times and this is the better solution as a whole I believe to protect your family and children.