Reformed people in non-reformed churches

[kalawine]

Here are some questions for those you who are (or have ever been) Reformed yet for some reason or another (probably because it's out of your control) you are a member of a non-reformed congregation:

(1) How do you manage to attend and participate in the ministry you are in without there being some friction?

(2) Have you made up your mind that you will keep your mouth shut and keep your beliefs to yourself?

(3) Has it gotten easier over time (assuming that you answered "yes" to question number two) for you to lay aside the arguments and be happy where you are?

(4) Is there really any way to avoid the issues without some degree of compromise?

I'll be happy with answers to any or all questions.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[Kim G]

(1) How do you manage to attend and participate in the ministry you are in without there being some friction?

By focusing on the things that we (hubby and I) have in common with the church. And by being honest, when asked, about why we do or don't do certain things.

(2) Have you made up your mind that you will keep your mouth shut and keep your beliefs to yourself?

We felt obligated to do this because my hubby is in a non-reformed school where our pastor was a seminary teacher. We figured we wouldn't be there long enough to make anything an issue.

(3) Has it gotten easier over time (assuming that you answered "yes" to question number two) for you to lay aside the arguments and be happy where you are?

It actually got worse and worse for us. Reformed theology was new to us as of the beginning of this year, and the more we learned, the more we felt uncomfortable with where we were. There were just TOO MANY differences.

(4) Is there really any way to avoid the issues without some degree of compromise?

Well, most of our differences were doctrinal, not in church order. So the preaching was what we did not agree with. We are not EP or non-instruments, so that wasn't a problem. I was one of three women who wore a head covering, but no one seemed to mind. And I was pressured to sing solos, but I resisted. We did compromise by continuing to sing in choir although we were becoming less and less convinced that we should be doing that.

All that to say, we left. My best friend's dad started a Reformed church less than two miles from our house, and we are attending there now. LOVE it!

 

[Pergamum]

I attended a "Full Gospel Church" for a time while living in the rural south and they often invited me to preach.

I was only visiting for a short time while passing through (9 weeks) and so I was not a member and so I did not have to worry about compromising quite so much.

If asked, I replied honestly, if they sought out my opinion I gave 2 compliments and encouragements for every critcism.

When I preached I preached verse by verse and simply explained the advantages of such an approach. I also stressed how it was sometimes God's will not to heal and to afflict in His mercies. I also preached very basically about the way of salvation. I am glad that I was a 2 1/2 month visitor.

 

[ManleyBeasley]

I have been in Southern Baptist Churches most of my life and there is some room for disagreement on the issue between most Southern Baptists. I was an assistant youth minister at a church in Arkansas for 6 and a half years. There were some reformed people at my church but most weren't. I sought to preach reformed doctrine in non-typical language (not using the normal language of the doctrines) through expository verse by verse preaching. It was almost an experiment for me. It was very well recieved.

Many people don't like reformed doctrine mainly out of ignorance of what it really means (I blame many reformed people for that). I didn't hide my reformed views but I didn't advertize it either. I just preached them in the way I mentioned above.

 

[FrielWatcher]

You guys have great comments. Now for the thunder - I am not a member but my in-laws are Papists so when we go to visit for the weekend, I go to their church for the Sunday morning. It really makes me sad to attend because of the lack of freedom in that church. Nobody brings their bibles (and I mean nobody), the hymnody is mostly post 1970s music (so in the time of the Jesus mvmt), the pastor's sermons last only about 10 minutes and are lacking in everything that you can think of (seriously).

It is very hard because when the OT, epistle and gospel are read I see it in the light of John Piper and how much could be preached out of just half of the OT reading. But, the congregation loves the fact that the pastor's sermons are so short - I really mean it - "short and sweet" I have heard people say there. Mostly about reflecting on this and that and no practical application or theology. I haven't learned a thing yet.

As for the liturgy, I don't say a lot of it, especially during the eucharist because it makes me sad that they eschew the book of Hebrews to continually re-sacrifice Christ for something that has already been done. Makes me literally sick to my stomach some weeks.

I could go on an on - idolatry of Mary and saints, the crucifix with Christ still on the cross, transub, the priesthood, veneration of Church Fathers over the bible, no bibles in the pews, justification of the sinner to a holy God...

 

[ManleyBeasley]

You guys have great comments. Now for the thunder - I am not a member but my in-laws are Papists so when we go to visit for the weekend, I go to their church for the Sunday morning. It really makes me sad to attend because of the lack of freedom in that church. Nobody brings their bibles (and I mean nobody), the hymnody is mostly post 1970s music (so in the time of the Jesus mvmt), the pastor's sermons last only about 10 minutes and are lacking in everything that you can think of (seriously).

It is very hard because when the OT, epistle and gospel are read I see it in the light of John Piper and how much could be preached out of just half of the OT reading. But, the congregation loves the fact that the pastor's sermons are so short - I really mean it - "short and sweet" I have heard people say there. Mostly about reflecting on this and that and no practical application or theology. I haven't learned a thing yet.

As for the liturgy, I don't say a lot of it, especially during the eucharist because it makes me sad that they eschew the book of Hebrews to continually re-sacrifice Christ for something that has already been done. Makes me literally sick to my stomach some weeks.

I could go on an on - idolatry of Mary and saints, the crucifix with Christ still on the cross, transub, the priesthood, veneration of Church Fathers over the bible, no bibles in the pews, justification of the sinner to a holy God...

I can understand that it would make you feel that way. What they offer there is paganism in the name of Christ and it is a false gospel. I'm sorry your family is in that but Christ CAN certainly save them! Remember, all the reformers were RC until God saved them! I'll pray for them.

I hold the protestant view of eschatology (historicism). The RC church perfectly fits the passages in 2 Thes 2 and 1 Tim 4 about the "apostosia" and the papal office the "man of sin". Check out those passages when you get a chance and tell me what you think.

 

[A5pointer]

Yes it does get worse and worse, For me I got so riled up, Sunday became a very sad day. This is when I realized how harmful it was for me to stay. I have a freind who stays because of his wife and he goes nuts on a weekly basis.

 

[FrielWatcher]

The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Their doctrines are grossly in error and there is no doubting that. I just really don't understand them because more credence is given to the word of the Pope than to the bible; yet the Pope is just a man elected by men to lead a church (although I believe he is just a figurehead and those "below" him are running the show) and can be sent to damnation as quick as the next unless he be born again of the Spirit and lives by faith in true repentance.

I bought the Catholic catechism back in the day (mid-90's). That is the hardest thing to read bar none. I guess it has to ultimately exhaustive to prove circular arguments. They have to include extra-biblical writings to prove their point instead of the scriptures alone.

Christ can save them. I pray this every time I am in that church - that the congregation would see the light of the glory of God through Christ Jesus. But I think they are blinded. They don't seem inquisitive toward the gospel; it seems rote and the thing to do on Sundays rather than a place of worship. All in all, I don't see worship there - I see folks sitting in the pews going through motions and I mourn it. There is no joy and it makes me sad.

But once more, from the death of Christ, the church began. How did it end up like that until the day of reformation? I mean, come on? Selling indulgences to depart from a place that doesn't exist (purgatory) with no warrant, unholy, to pay for a cathedral that would just be destroyed by God rather than have it exist? A cathedral is not glory to God; purely glory to man because "we created it." And if everyone of them crumbled to the ground, Christ's true church would continue.

Thanks Manley.

 

[ManleyBeasley]

The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Their doctrines are grossly in error and there is no doubting that. I just really don't understand them because more credence is given to the word of the Pope than to the bible; yet the Pope is just a man elected by men to lead a church (although I believe he is just a figurehead and those "below" him are running the show) and can be sent to damnation as quick as the next unless he be born again of the Spirit and lives by faith in true repentance.

I bought the Catholic catechism back in the day (mid-90's). That is the hardest thing to read bar none. I guess it has to ultimately exhaustive to prove circular arguments. They have to include extra-biblical writings to prove their point instead of the scriptures alone.

Christ can save them. I pray this every time I am in that church - that the congregation would see the light of the glory of God through Christ Jesus. But I think they are blinded. They don't seem inquisitive toward the gospel; it seems rote and the thing to do on Sundays rather than a place of worship. All in all, I don't see worship there - I see folks sitting in the pews going through motions and I mourn it. There is no joy and it makes me sad.

But once more, from the death of Christ, the church began. How did it end up like that until the day of reformation? I mean, come on? Selling indulgences to depart from a place that doesn't exist (purgatory) with no warrant, unholy, to pay for a cathedral that would just be destroyed by God rather than have it exist? A cathedral is not glory to God; purely glory to man because "we created it." And if everyone of them crumbled to the ground, Christ's true church would continue.

Thanks Manley.

I would say that there was some real Christianity going on during the dominance of the Roman "Church". Calvin considered himself as a successer to the Waldensians and there is proof that they may have existed since the 7th century AD (though not called Waldensians until the 12th). Martin Luther also admitted a succesion from the Hussites. John Wycliffe and the Lollards existed for a couple hundred years before the reformation. Plus the Paulinists (who were believed to be heretics for many years but that is now being refuted as RC lies) existed since the 6th or 7th century AD. It was a time of great darkness as the word "apostosia" suggests, but there was some light shining.