Reformed Baptist Ministering Word & Sacrament in PCA Church

[soakland]

Hi -

I have a question: does nayone know if it is permissable for a Reformed Baptist Pastor to preach the Word and administer the sacrament of the Lord's Supper in a PCA pulpit on a one-time basis? There is a thread that dealt with this issue back in 2009 but it didn't sufficiently answer this, so I am inviting comment.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Joseph Scibbe]

I am no Presbyterian but I don't think it would be an issue as long as he stays away from baptism during the sermon.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Mark Dever is invited to speak at various Presbyterian gatherings all the time.

 

[soakland]

Ref Baptist in PCA Pulpit

I think the fact that a Reformed Baptist speaking at a convention or conference does not translate to being in a pulpit, In my humble opinion....Any other thoughts?

 

[Notthemama1984]

So they would trust him to teach hundreds of pastors, but not lay people?

That sounds doubtful.

 

[soakland]

It certainly is inconsistent, I'll say that. But the church is a distinct entity and that is why they have presbyteries, sessions, BCO, etc. Irrespective of the T4G style conferences and conventions, the real question at hand is: Should a RB be able to preach and give the sacaraments in a Presbyterian church? Given the 1689 LBC non-use of the word sacrament (rather "ordinance" was used which differs from the WCF) it seems questionable to me. But I'm open to more input

 

[Fly Caster]

Isn't there a problem if he doesn't see the Lord's Supper as a sacrament?

 

[Notthemama1984]

Dever speaks at conferences at RTS and other Presbyterian only conferences. That is a bit different than T4G.

You can preach in a Presbyterian pulpit and not be qualified to give the sacrament (I should know. I fit this scenario). So Dever's view of the sacraments would not prohibit him from preaching in a pulpit.

 

[Jack K]

I've seen a Reformed Baptist preach in a PCA church on a one-time basis. So it does happen.

Much would depend on the church. Some PCA sessions would be much more cautious than others about inviting a Baptist to be a guest preacher. I'm also guessing that the vast majority, even if they let him preach, would be more reluctant to let him administer the Lord's Supper. The Westminster Confession says only ordained ministers may administer the sacraments, and a Baptist minister would seem not to qualify. The PCA Book of Church Order assigns the jobs of preaching and administering the sacraments specifically to teaching elders, but the sacraments tend to be more closely guarded than is preaching. Do the PCA pastors in our midst concur?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I do not think he should serve the Lord's Supper. Conversely, I think it is permissible to receive the prophetic Word from the mouth of a recognizable servant of the Lord, even when we would not sanction his service as one of OUR ordained ministers of Word and Sacrament.

I think it should be "occasional" hearing, rather than the regular ministry. But if the Spirit of God is discernible in his preaching, I wonder what advantage it could be to us to refuse to attend (on occasion) the major means of grace (preaching) on the ground that his doctrine concerning the occasional means of grace (sacrament) is deficient. How about some other doctrine? Apollos began with errors in his theology, but was evidently endowed as a preacher, even before he had orthodoxy explained further to him. Our own candidates for the ministry are expected (hopefully) to bring us the Word profitably as evidence of their developing gifts.

The visiting outsider should not administer the sacraments. Because this is a serious sanctioning of his whole theology. He should not serve the Supper because he should not baptize a congregant--neither one. Indeed, if he would refuse to give the sacrament of baptism to a child whose right we believe it to be, how could we approve of him giving the Supper, as if only to them whom he had personally approved? But since the preached Word ought to be indiscriminately proclaimed, if he may be trusted to conform his preaching generally to the Scripture, and to our expressed form of doctrine from the Scripture, I would not on principle oppose him preaching.

 

[Herald]

I would request not to administer the Lord's Supper.

sent from my most excellent Motorola Atrix.

 

[ericfromcowtown]

We have a retired reformed baptist pastor in our congregation. He has, once or twice, filled the pulpit when the need arose. I can't recall him every administering the sacraments, though.

 

[Scott1]

Reverend Buchanan has described it for PCA and biblical reformed presbyterian.

Occasionally to preach the Word, within trusted parameters, but not to administer the sacraments.

Absolutely not, or it ought be reported for discipline.

(Nor would a PCA Pastor administer baptism in a Southern Baptist Church, etc.)

 

[raekwon]

(Nor would a PCA Pastor administer baptism in a Southern Baptist Church, etc.)

I wouldn't make that statement across the board. Surely a Westminster Standards-affirming minister shouldn't "re-baptize" anyone (as we understand "re-baptism"), but I can't see any valid objections being raised against a PCA minister baptizing a never-before-baptized believer upon profession of faith.

 

[soakland]

answers on RB & sacraments

Thanks for the great responses. If a Session were to examine and deem that the RB believed that his view of the sacraments were identical to theirs, could he under those circumstances administer them? It seems that the LBCF and the WCF differ especially on the two sacraments.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Joseph Scibbe]

Reverend Buchanan has described it for PCA and biblical reformed presbyterian.

Occasionally to preach the Word, within trusted parameters, but not to administer the sacraments.

Absolutely not, or it ought be reported for discipline.

(Nor would a PCA Pastor administer baptism in a Southern Baptist Church, etc.)

I don't understand. Why, if you agree on the sacrament of the Supper, could he not administer that sacrament? I totally understand him not doing a baptism but I think the Table is a different issue.

 

[Jack K]

If a Session were to examine and deem that the RB believed that his view of the sacraments were identical to theirs, could he under those circumstances administer them?

Not likely. Many fill-in preachers agree with the confession, but I've only seen those ordained as teaching elders administer sacraments. This is held to strictly enough that I was sure that in addition to the confession, the BCO must have something to say to that effect. But looking through it I can't find that it does. Again, we may need the help of someone more familiar than myself with PCA rules. But the issue is not so much agreement with the doctrine as it is ordination by a body that is in line with the confession.

 

[Scott1]

Thanks for the great responses. If a Session were to examine and deem that the RB believed that his view of the sacraments were identical to theirs, could he under those circumstances administer them? It seems that the LBCF and the WCF differ especially on the two sacraments.

Thanks,
Scott

A biblical reformed presbyterian session (or presbytery) is not going to examine a minister from another denomination and let him adminster the sacraments, unless he was a candidate for transfer.

The examination process takes time, requires confirmation, it often is a several month process.

A visiting outsider is not regulated by the discipline of the biblical reformed presbyterian, including its whole system of doctrine, nor ought he be (he is accountable to the system that ordains and installs him).

This is not an interchangeable function- it's why biblical, reformed presbyterian churches have careful qualifications of teaching elders, because there is a good case at least, to say that is biblical.

If a Reformed Baptist had exactly the same system of doctrine (all of it), including infant baptism and all that goes with it- he ought seek ordination in that denomination, under its discipline.

Understand, this is NOT saying the minister is not a believer or doesn't have a biblical basis for his denominations distinctives- NONE of that.

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------

Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)

Chapter 8
The Elder

....

8-5. When a man is called to labor as a teaching elder, it belongs to his
order, in addition to those functions he shares with all other elders, to feed
the flock by reading, expounding and preaching the Word of God and to
administer the Sacraments.

....

In the PCA, even an intern (for teaching elder) is not permitted to administer the sacraments (cf 19-5).

 

[Jack K]

I don't understand. Why, if you agree on the sacrament of the Supper, could he not administer that sacrament?

Because the PCA is not a bunch of congregationalist thinking Baptists. Ordination of pastors, and with it the authority to administer sacraments, is a function that takes place at the presbytery level and with whole-denomination oversight. Elders of an individual church can authorize a man to fill in as a preacher. But they are not authorized to ordain him as a teaching elder and, hence, no sacraments. If you think like a Presbyterian it makes sense, but I understand how Baptists don't get it right away.

 

[Scott1]

So, asking why biblically would go to the substance of different views, but is not the focus of this thread.

It's "easy" to answer in the PCA (and I have reason to believe in other reformed, biblical presbyterian denominations), that their constitution and oath requires that ordained ministers of the denomination perform the sacraments.

The constitution, oath of office wouldn't allow an OPC minister to go into a PCA corporate worship and do the sacraments, though the denominations have nearly identical doctrine on everything, and especially baptism. If there is an extraordinary exception to this, I'm not aware of it, and am confident it would not apply in the general case of the original post.

 

[raekwon]

There's nothing that I've found in either the vows of office that a minister takes or in our constitution that requires that the minister administering the sacraments be ordained in the PCA. We've had an EPC minister (who worships with us and whose family are members of our church) fill in and administer Communion, and we've had an OPC minister (whose son is an RE at our church) come in and baptize his grandson.

 

[soakland]

Thanks for the response. That church may very well be the exception in practice, but I wonder if anyone else knows whether the minister has to be ordained in the PCA? And can they be a RB guest administering them? I think at least the spirit of the BCO says no to that question.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I know in the OPC that the guest pastor must be ordained in a denom that they have fraternal relationship with. I would assume the PCA would be the same.

 

[soakland]

I'm still not sure. I had someone from Covenant Seminary tell me that Word & Sacrament go together, so if the RB can do one, he can do the other. But if the RB does not agree with the WCF (and subscribes to the 1689LBCF) how can he be in agreement with the PCA on the Sacrament. When, two things that are different are not the same? If the RB personally states that he subscribes to the WCF view of Communion, could he do it then, I wonder? It may come down to the difference in the two confessions, which are substantial (otherwise there would not be two confessions?).