(Redux) Exclusive Psalmody Debate

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larryjf

Puritan Board Senior
Just wanted y'all to know that i'm still here...just reading, not posting so much right now. It is a very interesting thread when kept on point. There is much here to chew on.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
The term new is used 173 times NAS

161 in the Septuagint (LXX) and 1894 Textus Receptus

Using the NAS because the verses are numbered:

take out new song - #s: 58, 59, 61, 62, 63, 64, 78, 168, 169
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look at the vs that could be taken to mean renewed or refreshed:

new moon - most are grouped in the same book

11, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 41, 44, 45, 46, 48, 50, 52, 60, 70, 71, 80, 89, 101, 102, 103, 104, 110, 113, 119, 149

#55 - Job 29 (Job speaking of himself)

20'My glory is ever new with me,
And my bow is renewed in my hand.'

There is new and renewed in the same sentence, so new must mean new.
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In the Psalms - new moon (1), new wine (2) - besides the 4 "new song"
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new strength - twice in Isaiah - ok this could be brand new or renewed, so I'll concede these, to be charitable.

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Also in Isaiah - new - in context - brand new.

Isaiah 42:9
"Behold, the former things have come to pass,Now I declare new things;Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."

Isaiah 42:10
Sing to the LORD a new song,Sing His praise from the end of the earth! You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it You islands, and those who dwell on them.

new things and new song - new used as brand new...

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maybe #87 - new grass - maybe not

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# 97 Lamentations 3:22-24 - clearly means refreshed

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even "giving" several more - 26 "new" moons - a couple "new" strengths - the VAST majority of times "new" is used it means "brand new" and clearly in context

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for context:

Ps 103:5
Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.

Isa 57:10
"You were tired out by the length of your road, Yet you did not say, 'It is hopeless.' You found renewed strength, Therefore * you did not faint.

Both renewed uses - Chay - why not use this word - sing to the Lord a renewed song?
 
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panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
Mr. Winzer is addressing the argument, not your person. Since the debate is dealing with a "literal" vs. figurative interpretation of the term "new" in relation to song, I don't see how this is "Against the man".

Surely you aren't calling Rev. Winzer an "incompetant exegete" and "calling the kettle black" by doing so? Either way, I would revisit the definition of ad hominem.

Let's keep the debate on the subject, not the persons. But let's also be careful before we blow the logical whistle.
Jeff, I'm not going to argue with you. I'll just call it "done".
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
the VAST majority of times "new" is used it means "brand new" and clearly in context
Mr. Longmire's research is restricted to one particular noun form, and even there sensitivity to message and nuance has not been displayed. If one consults a work like TDNT, TWOT, or NIDOTTE it will be seen that semantic range and use is discovered by a complete examination of all forms of the root. In the piel the word means "make new, restore, reaffirm."

The "new things" of Isaiah are referring to fulfilled prophecy, hence not entirely new; a new exodus, as biblical theologians repeatedly point out, relating to the "restoration," and should be carefully connected to the new (renewed) heaven and earth. In Job, TWOT says, "While suffering, Job longed for the time when his glory was 'fresh' in him (Job 29:20)" (1:266). Mr. Longmire has ignored the parallelism.

The contributor to NIDOTTE states with relation to "new songs:" "In all these occurences the 'new song' was a response by God's people to God's revelation and the experience of a new act of deliverance. 'New' here has the meaning of fresh, adapted to the occasion. It does not mean that the 'old songs' are being replaced by the 'new ones'" (2:36).
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
Mr. Longmire's research is restricted to one particular noun form, and even there sensitivity to message and nuance has not been displayed. If one consults a work like TDNT, TWOT, or NIDOTTE it will be seen that semantic range and use is discovered by a complete examination of all forms of the root. In the piel the word means "make new, restore, reaffirm."
But the root is not used - the context is new - fresh.

The "new things" of Isaiah are referring to fulfilled prophecy, hence not entirely new; a new exodus, as biblical theologians repeatedly point out, relating to the "restoration," and should be carefully connected to the new (renewed) heaven and earth.
there is no term "new exodus" in Scripture - important in this context, since we are defining specific terms and usage.

How new will the new heaven and new earth be? new enough to be new, since all the old will be destroyed by fire - how new will the new Jerusalem be?

Revelation 21:2
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

In Job, TWOT says, "While suffering, Job longed for the time when his glory was 'fresh' in him (Job 29:20)" (1:266). Mr. Longmire has ignored the parallelism.
Matthew Henry says:

Providence favoured him, and made all his enjoyments comfortable and all his enterprises successful. Let none think to support their prosperity with what they draw from this earth without that blessing which is derived from above. God’s favour being continued to Job, in the virtue of that his glory was still fresh in him. Those about him had still something new to say in his praise, and needed not to repeat the old stories: and it is only by constant goodness that men’s glory is thus preserved fresh and kept from withering and growing stale.

The contributor to NIDOTTE states with relation to "new songs:" "In all these occurences the 'new song' was a response by God's people to God's revelation and the experience of a new act of deliverance. 'New' here has the meaning of fresh, adapted to the occasion. It does not mean that the 'old songs' are being replaced by the 'new ones'" (2:36).
MH again:

"Sing unto him a new song, the best you have, not that which by frequent use is worn, thread-bare, but that which, being new, is most likely to move the affections, a new song for new mercies and upon every new occasion, for those compassions which are new every morning.’’

MH on the Isaiah new song passage:

Sing unto the Lord a new song, a New-Testament song. The giving of Christ for a light to the Gentiles (v. 6) was a new thing, and very surprising. The apostle speaks of it as a mystery which, in other ages, was not made known, as it is now revealed, that the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, Eph. 3:5, 6. Now, this being the new thing which God declares, the newness of the song which is to be sung on this occasion is this, that whereas, before, the songs of the Lord were very much confined to the temple at Jerusalem (David’s psalms were in the language of the Jews only, and sung by them in their own country only; for, when they were in a strange land, they hung their harps on the willow-trees and could not sing the Lord’s song, as we find, Ps. 137:2-4), now the songs of holy joy and praise shall be sung all the world over. The Gentile nations shall share equally with the Jews in New-Testament blessings, and therefore shall join in New-Testament praises and acts of worship. There shall be churches set up in Gentile nations and they shall sing a new song.
 
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sotzo

Puritan Board Sophomore
From II Timothy 2:

"Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.


Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

The Gospel not being at stake, brothers quarreling over words, and this being an Internet thread which automatically renders communication of complex truths very difficult...is this not a clear time to hang this up?
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
From II Timothy 2:

"Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.


Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

The Gospel not being at stake, brothers quarreling over words, and this being an Internet thread which automatically renders communication of complex truths very difficult...is this not a clear time to hang this up?
Yup - thanks, brother and peace.
 
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