Recitation of the Lord's Prayer

Discussion in 'Worship' started by cih1355, Aug 11, 2008.

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  1. cih1355

    cih1355 Puritan Board Junior

    Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
     
  2. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    We do it frequently, maybe once a month. (OPC)
     
  3. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior

    Yes, its common. And even though we know that in Christ teaching us how to pray he gave us that Lord's Prayer outline, we still insist on reciting it verbatim as if that was His intent. Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries. We recite it at the Church I attend in spanish but I refrain because of my position, not that its bad in and of itself to recite it verbatim but why would I do it if I don't agree, that would be going against my conscience and I'm just not like that.

    My advice to you bro or sis would be just to learn from the content of the Prayer and incorporate its principles into your prayer life. :2cents:
     
  4. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritan Board Doctor

    It is also worth noting that the end of the prayer in Matthew is absent from the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 6:13 should end with "deliver us from evil". Much like the "end" of Mark's Gospel.

    "...for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever". While true is not found until the 5th or 6th century.
     
  5. rescuedbyLove

    rescuedbyLove Puritan Board Junior

    The PCUSA church I went to when I was a kid recites it every Sunday.
     
  6. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritan Board Doctor

    Of course the real question should be what formulation do you use?

    debts, and debtors

    sins, and sinners

    or

    trespasses and trespasses against us
     
  7. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior


    So does my Church. Right at the backend of the Pastors congregational prayer, he ends it in the Lord's Prayer, but whatever.
     
  8. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
    Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

    I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
     
  9. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritan Board Doctor

  10. N. Eshelman

    N. Eshelman Puritan Board Senior

    My congregation recites in the AM worship right after the pastoral prayer. I can take it or leave it.

    I do not think that the RPW prohibits it, so I am not opposed to it.
     
  11. rescuedbyLove

    rescuedbyLove Puritan Board Junior

    Anything you say without thinking, or without really meaning it from your heart, is vain. The words our Lord used were not vain when HE said them, but they can be when we say them. :2cents:
     
  12. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior

    Me neither. But like I said His intent was not for us to recite verbatim and because we have not been faithful to His teaching in taking His outline on HOW to pray, WE have in turn reduced His precious words into "vain repetition" because of our tradition, IMHO.


    It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.
     
  13. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior

    Actually if you hold to the view (and I believe the biblical view) that the Lord's Prayer is the ultimate MODEL on how to pray and not meant to be recited verbatim, then yes it would go against the RPW because we are not commanded to recite this prayer and incorporate it into our worship. As a matter of fact even if it was meant to be recited verbatim, it still is not commanded to be used in public worship and actually states to be done in private behind closed doors (Matt. 6:6) hmmmmm. :think:

    So either way, many will still view it as being in violation of the RPW.
     
  14. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Roldan,

    Are the angels being vain and repetitive who hover around God's throne and repeat "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with his glory."
     
  15. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    I would respectfully disagree with you here. I think the Greek text points more to what I have described in my post.
    Thankfully there is room in Christ's kingdom for such differences :D
     
  16. Marrow Man

    Marrow Man Drunk with Powder Staff Member

    We use it during the morning worship service, right after the invocation.
     
  17. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior

    Of course not, but then again they are not fallen creatures corrupted by sin and therefore are joyfully and heartfully repetitive hence meaningful.
     
  18. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior


    I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.
     
  19. Presbyterian Deacon

    Presbyterian Deacon Puritan Board Graduate


    We are a "debtors" church.
    Trespassers will be shot! :lol:
     
  20. Presbyterian Deacon

    Presbyterian Deacon Puritan Board Graduate

    We recite it every Sunday after the Pastoral Prayer.
    I don't have a problem with it.
     
  21. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    Let me lighten my burden a bit then...
    The immediate context is clearly NOT referring to the Scribe and Pharisees...

    But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Mat 6:7)


    The "tongues" of the charismatic circles is very similar to Hindu practices...

    In the Kundalini (serpent power) practices they speak in this same kind of "tongues"
     
  22. caddy

    caddy Puritan Board Senior

    Interesting...:detective:
     
  23. Christusregnat

    Christusregnat Puritan Board Professor

    Curt,

    Do you sing certain hymns frequently at your church? If so, is that a "vain repetition"? I think not.

    The book of Psalms is a collection of liturgical prayers, hymns, medetations, etc. In other words, God intended that such divine odes would be recited by His people throughout the ages. Also consider the fact that Christ sang a collection of these Psalms with His disciples; was this vain repetition? I think not.

    As such, praying the Lord's Prayer as a liturgical device is nothing short of biblical, and enriches the worship service.

    Anything man does can be "empty words"; whether he makes it up on the spot, or whether it's written on a piece of paper for him to read. God wrote a bunch of prayers down for us to read: the Psalms. To argue against liturgical prayers is (to me) fairly short-sighted, and will inevitably lead to hypocrisy, due to the repetition of hymns we sing, and the fact that we're not spontaneously singing them.

    Also, the recitation of the Lord's Prayer is not a Presbyterian tradition: it is a universal, long-established custom, with a strong bibilcal and theological justification. The burden of proof would rest with anyone wishing not to recite it.

    Cheers,

    Adam
     
  24. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior

    Adam, your comparing apples to oranges.

    And Presbyterian tradition or not its still tradition NOT based on a scriptural command, seems like everyone like to use the RPW card at convenience when it fits.

    And lastly the burden has been proven from the context of the passage, the burden is on those who want to recite it to prove that Christ intended it to be recited verbatim and not only that but recited in worship, and not be argued from tradition but to be argued exegetically from the TEXT. The fact that its in the bible is not an argument and even opens up a variety of things to enter.

    Prove your assertions exegetically from the text.
     
  25. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior

    Actually He is equating them as the same and He still is referring to the use of MANY words as opposed to unintelligable words.
     
  26. sastark

    sastark Puritan Board Graduate

    Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."

    The WCF 21.3 says:

    Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer. Christ taught us to say these words when we pray (yes, it is also a model for all prayers, but He commanded that these words be said).

    Further, the WLC says:

    There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.
     
  27. Christusregnat

    Christusregnat Puritan Board Professor

    Hey Ricky,

    You're missing the forest: see my argument about the Psalms: liturgical prayers intended to be used in public worship; see the example of Christ singing a liturgical prayer at the Passover in the gospels.

    Cheers,

    Adam
     
  28. Roldan

    Roldan Puritan Board Junior

    So then we could also incorporate in our worship all the sound Roman Catholic prayers that they use in their worship since it fits the WCF definition of prayer or how your using it anyways, right?


    This is where we would disagree, Christ commanded no such thing. He says to "in this manner therefore pray" NKJV or "Pray then like this" ESV "pray then in this way" ""This, then, is how you should pray" NIV

    This is the meaning in the greek


    WHere is their exegetical support for using it as a prayer?

    BTW I'm just using the RPW argument for those who are strict RPWers
     
  29. sastark

    sastark Puritan Board Graduate

    If the words are sound, then it doesn't matter who originally wrote them, it matters who is praying them.



    Luke 11:2




    Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that the confession is wrong.

     
  30. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    The "vain repetitions" or "βατταλογήσητε"...if that font doesn't show up it's "Battalogesete" which means "to babble"

    so yes, it does mean unintelligible.

    The "much speaking" is, of course, in reference to the use of many words...but it must be taken in context of the rest of the verse, and clearly "vain repetitions" does mean "babbling"
     
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