bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
UPDATE: Well, I'm now 70 pages into Volume 2. He's discussing the Ten Commandments one by one.
Reading Francis Turretin
- Thread starter bookslover
- Start date
- Status
brendanchatt
Puritan Board Freshman
How nice. I would edit this to say acompton at midamerica dot edu to avoid bots and spam.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Here is his take on why he thinks the unpardonable sin is unpardonable (he has no opinion, at least in this section, as to what the unpardonable sin is) -
As to order, the covenant of works precedes and the covenant of grace follows. From this to that, there is granted an appeal from the throne of justice to the throne of mercy. Hence, the violator of the covenant of nature has a remedy in the covenant of grace, but the violator of the covenant of grace has no further remedy or hope of pardon because there is no other covenant by which he can be reconciled to God. On this account, the sin against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable because it is committed against the covenant of grace. (12.4.10 [Volume 2, Page 191])
I thought that was interesting.
As to order, the covenant of works precedes and the covenant of grace follows. From this to that, there is granted an appeal from the throne of justice to the throne of mercy. Hence, the violator of the covenant of nature has a remedy in the covenant of grace, but the violator of the covenant of grace has no further remedy or hope of pardon because there is no other covenant by which he can be reconciled to God. On this account, the sin against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable because it is committed against the covenant of grace. (12.4.10 [Volume 2, Page 191])
I thought that was interesting.
Some would see the Unpardonable Sin as what happens when sinners continue to reject the work of the Holy Spirit in getting them to see and receive Jesus Christ, but it seems that Jesus applied that to a specific time and place, to the Pharisees who had them in their midst, and yet ascribed his miracles and deeds as being done for Satan and not for God.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Just finished the Fourteenth Topic in Volume 2, so I only have 224 pages to go in that volume. Under the Fourteenth Topic, he has a very interesting discussion as to whether Christ died for the elect only or for all men. Just that one question is so important for Turretin that he devotes 28 pages to it. (Elect only, of course.)
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
UPDATE: Finished Volume 2 a few days ago and am now 50 pages into Volume 3.
For Turretin's take on Romans 7, you should read Volume 2, pages 697-699. He takes the orthodox position, of course. But it's an interesting read.
For Turretin's take on Romans 7, you should read Volume 2, pages 697-699. He takes the orthodox position, of course. But it's an interesting read.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
UPDATE: Now have less than 400 pages to go in Volume 3.
He's now discussing clerical celibacy, a topic that's pretty hot right now what with all the bad news coming out of the Catholic Church these days.
He's now discussing clerical celibacy, a topic that's pretty hot right now what with all the bad news coming out of the Catholic Church these days.
What would be the Orthodox position then?
psycheives
Puritan Board Freshman
Sarah, jump in! You are SOOO missing out! I can't stress this enough. It's like a gold mine. Turretin really is not "too hard." Some topics are harder but many are easy. Don't start on Vol 1, Pg 1. People get scared because they start in at page 1 and can't make sense of the prolegomena and philosophy. I don't recommend that. Skip right to the sections that you want to learn about. If you want to understand the Sacraments/Baptism/Supper, then go there. If you want to understand our view of Scripture, go there.
For example, I'm trying to convince a brother that Roman Catholicism is false and their reading of history and biblical interpretations are false. So I've been relying heavily upon Turretin. Calvin is pre-Rome's Trent, so not as directly helpful. Turretin directly addresses Rome's "confession" Trent and also leading theologian at the time, Bellarmine. Basically, Turretin's Table on Contents are questions directly opposing Rome, Arminians and Socinians. So you just skip to the question you need. He's got the whole argument laid out for you in the EASIEST question-answer format with answer 1, 2, 3, 4. He has them even numbered. Super easy to follow. He deals with Rome's best theologians and he always gives evidence directly from the church fathers that shows Rome has departed historically and that the Reformation is a return to the fathers.
I find Turretin more helpful than Bavinck and much more helpful than Berkhof. Berkhof is way too brief - his section on the sufficiency of scripture is a brief summary and only about 1 1/2 pages. Bavinck in large text size is about 13 pages and he deals with Rome directly. Turretin in small text size is 8 pages and deals directly with Rome's leading arguments and theologians. Turretin will be your most helpful resource when trying to answer a question due to his direct Q&A format.
I strongly encourage reading Turretin by section/topic.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Paul is talking about his life as a believer.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Paul is speaking about his current life as a believer. Believers feel the struggle - as unbelievers cannot - between the old man and the new man, the sin nature and the new nature.
Would the position be then that Chapter 7 of Romans describes Paul as while in his new nature does now want to serve and please God, but that he still is weak in the flesh, and Chapter 8 is the revelation from God to us that we must now live in and by the Holy Spirit?
What was interesting to me was that while in my AOG days, their prominenent viewpoint was that Chapter 7 described Paul before salvation happened , but did not agree with them, as hard to see a lost person even delighting in the Law of the Lord.
The first Systematic theology read by me before becoming a calvinist was the 3 part one written by Charles Hodge, and knew that he interacted a lot with Catholic viewpoints, and he to me was a tough read at times. How would he compare to Turrentin than?
Last edited:
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Yes.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
In two or three days, I'll be down to the last 200 pages of Volume 3.
Turns out he didn't like the Three Stooges. (OK, I made that one up.)
Turns out he didn't like the Three Stooges. (OK, I made that one up.)
Any theologian that does not like the Three Stooges is not worth my time!
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Here's an interesting section.
In 19.22.5 (volume 3, page 430), Turretin says it is not necessary to use unleavened bread in the Lord's Supper.
. . .the bread [Christ] used was unleavened, not from the necessity of the thing, but from an accidental circumstance of time, on account of the feast of the Passover, in which it was lawful neither to use nor to have any other (Exodus 12.19). Otherwise, it was always [leavened] in Judea (whenever the Supper was celebrated outside of that time, Acts 2.42) as well as among the Gentiles (who used common and not unleavened bread). So that here so fierce a dispute on this subject falsely sprang up between the Greeks and Latins, the Greeks pressing the necessity of leavened, the latter of unleavened bread. The former were called "fermentarians" and the latter "azymites."
He admits that the use of leavened bread is appropriate and that the widespread use of unleavened bread did not take hold until the ninth or tenth centuries. But, he adds:
The example of Christ neither can nor ought to be made an objection here because, as we have said, there was a peculiar reason which impelled Him to the use of unleavened bread (which no longer exists). Therefore, His example binds us as to the essence of the thing itself, that we should do whatever He did (take, bless, and break the bread, and other acts of this kind mentioned in the sacred writers), but not forthwith as to the particular circumstances, which do not belong to the thing.
So, Turretin thinks it's OK to use leavened bread in the Lord's Supper, though he doesn't want to ban the use of unleavened bread. He believes that the leaven in the bread is a circumstance of worship (for historical reasons), not something essential.
In 19.22.5 (volume 3, page 430), Turretin says it is not necessary to use unleavened bread in the Lord's Supper.
. . .the bread [Christ] used was unleavened, not from the necessity of the thing, but from an accidental circumstance of time, on account of the feast of the Passover, in which it was lawful neither to use nor to have any other (Exodus 12.19). Otherwise, it was always [leavened] in Judea (whenever the Supper was celebrated outside of that time, Acts 2.42) as well as among the Gentiles (who used common and not unleavened bread). So that here so fierce a dispute on this subject falsely sprang up between the Greeks and Latins, the Greeks pressing the necessity of leavened, the latter of unleavened bread. The former were called "fermentarians" and the latter "azymites."
He admits that the use of leavened bread is appropriate and that the widespread use of unleavened bread did not take hold until the ninth or tenth centuries. But, he adds:
The example of Christ neither can nor ought to be made an objection here because, as we have said, there was a peculiar reason which impelled Him to the use of unleavened bread (which no longer exists). Therefore, His example binds us as to the essence of the thing itself, that we should do whatever He did (take, bless, and break the bread, and other acts of this kind mentioned in the sacred writers), but not forthwith as to the particular circumstances, which do not belong to the thing.
So, Turretin thinks it's OK to use leavened bread in the Lord's Supper, though he doesn't want to ban the use of unleavened bread. He believes that the leaven in the bread is a circumstance of worship (for historical reasons), not something essential.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
In our church, when we have communion, we make allowances for those who cannot drink wine (for whatever reason), and so our communion trays have both wine and grape juice. I'm sure other Reformed churches do the same.
Interestingly, Turretin notes that the same problem existed in his day, and that allowances were also made for those who couldn't drink wine.
So, I guess this has been a common problem for centuries.
Interestingly, Turretin notes that the same problem existed in his day, and that allowances were also made for those who couldn't drink wine.
So, I guess this has been a common problem for centuries.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Less than 80 pages to go in Volume 3! Should be wrapping it up this week.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
FINISHED!!
At 3:24 pm (Pacific Daylight Saving Time) today (10/11/18), I finished Volume 3. A total of three volumes comprising 2,046 pages of text in six months (April - October).
As for eschatology, Turretin has virtually nothing to say regarding the Big Picture except to say how wrong the chiliasts are (no thousand-year kingdom before the consummation). He concentrates almost entirely on personal eschatology.
Now, on to Book Four of Calvin's Institutes (having read the three other books previously).
At 3:24 pm (Pacific Daylight Saving Time) today (10/11/18), I finished Volume 3. A total of three volumes comprising 2,046 pages of text in six months (April - October).
As for eschatology, Turretin has virtually nothing to say regarding the Big Picture except to say how wrong the chiliasts are (no thousand-year kingdom before the consummation). He concentrates almost entirely on personal eschatology.
Now, on to Book Four of Calvin's Institutes (having read the three other books previously).
I hope there will be many brethren (not just yourself) down the line who accrue some residual benefit from your energies spent in this study. Your occasional commentary in this thread was encouraging, too.bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks, Bruce. I learned a lot.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
Richard,
Kudos on your completion!
Attached is a nice table of contents that may come in handy now that you have finished and later need to locate something quickly. It also illustrates to the reader just how unique Turretin's Institutes are, for even the table of contents is quite instructive.
We affirm!
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Well done, Richard. You will never regret having read Francis Turretin's Institutes. I am currently re-reading volume 1 and have 70 pages left to read, which I hope to finish by Tuesday. I have generally only read 10-15 pages a day (20 at a stretch some days). Few authors say so much in so little space.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Scottish Presbyterian
Puritan Board Sophomore
By chiliasts presumably you mean pre-millennials (the term in the early church described those who believed Christ would return and their would be a resurrection of the saints before the end of the world).
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
- Status
