Quick Survey on Eschatological Positions of Current Board Regulars

[VanGillMan]

Welcome to PB, Andrew!

How would you then understand the binding and loosing of Satan?

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the welcome. I will preface this by saying that of course I could be wrong - BUT, I see the binding of Satan as coming through the work of the spirit in the growing of Christ's kingdom until the leaven has worked it's way through the whole loaf. The second petition has been answered in full effect i.e. - "the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate..." (WLC Q191)

The loosing - how do you go from that to being loosed? Hard to say I admit - if asked I would respond 'well, how did Satan fall' - hard to understand, but suffice to say God will allow it in order to further display his glory and goodness in Satan's full and overwhelming destruction.

I see the millennium as the justification in history of the cause for which the martyrs died - from the thrones where they reign with Christ they look on the downfall of the wicked and see the vindication of the cause for which they have suffered.

God Bless!

 

[Peairtach]

The short period of apostasy after a long period of blessedness may be to confirm the incorrigibility of Satan and his angelic and human minions before the end.

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[MW]

The short period of apostasy after a long period of blessedness may be to confirm the incorrigibility of Satan and his angelic and human minions before the end.

That is one of the weaknesses of this-worldly millennial thinking. It effectively introduces a "new dispensation" and then there is an unique "apostacy" from it. The idea of a new order of things at a later stage, or an even later fall from that order, basically undoes the kingdom and patience of the saints in a suffering and dying condition under the present world order.

 

[Peairtach]

Well it's true that there have been a number of major apostasies already e.g. the Papal apostasy (Ii Thessalonians), and the Modern (Enlightenment) apostasy, both of which are still playing out, along with lots of other "smaller" ones.

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[Cymro]

We are now passing through the great tribulation; we are now passing through the millennium; and what do we need a new heavens and earth for? My reading of the thematic strand through Isaiah, Peter and Revelation, is the teaching of a new order being introduced. From the flood when the the heavens and the earth did not perish only the inhabitants, to the constitution of Israel as a church/state at Mount Sinai, to the overthrow of their enemies, to the removal of the old Jewish economy by the gospel and then the final glory of the heavenly state, they all signify a change of order and administration. I am genuinely puzzled as to what the supposed new earth is for! Heaven will be our home wherein dwelleth righteousness, in the mansions prepared for us. The final state and order.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Jeff,

I also used to think of Heaven as the final destination for the saints, but then I came across the teaching that it is but the "intermediate state" where we abide with the Lord and the spirits of just men and women made perfect (Heb 12:22-24) until the resurrection, where we are reconnected with our physical bodies which are now "glorified". Peter talks about it like this:

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:12, 13)​

And Revelation says this of it:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Rev 21:1-5)​

So I understand the Biblical teaching to be this: Our God and Saviour shall cleanse and purify this earth with fire, and shall then renew it according to the pristine glory it was meant to have, and thus a fit place for us to dwell in with our glorified bodies. Also, we see the heavenly Jerusalem coming down to now be upon the earth, but even greater than that, our Lord and God will dwell with us upon this glorious paradise earth, the joy and crown of the saints' eternal home.

Anthony Hoekema wrote a little about it, Heaven: Not Just an Eternal Day Off, adapted from his book, The Bible and the Future. Always something new to learn about—the things God has prepared for those who love Him!

 

[Ed Walsh]

"I also used to think of Heaven as the final destination for the saints, but then I came across the teaching that it is but the "intermediate state" where we abide with the Lord and the spirits of just men and women made perfect (Heb 12:22-24) until the resurrection, where we are reconnected with our physical bodies which are now "glorified". Peter talks about it like this:" etc.

Your thoughts are exactly the same as mine on this glorious subject.
I think the, “no more sea” part may be literal. The extra two-thirds of space being needed to accommodate the large number of saints.

Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

I think the, “no more sea” part may be literal. The extra two-thirds of space being needed to accommodate the large number of saints.

Ed, that's an idea I'd never considered, but it makes sense, especially in light of the scene we find in Revelation 7.

[BIBLE]Revelation 7:9-10[/BIBLE]

I've often wondered if perhaps the removal of the sea (thalassa, θάλασσα) in Revelation 21:1 corresponds at all to the sea (thalassa, θάλασσα) that is in view in Revelation 4:6 (the sea of glass before the throne of God). Perhaps this sea serves as a barrier of some kind, separating heaven and earth, and at the consummation, with the ushering in of the new heaven and the new earth, this separation no longer has any need to continue.

May the Lord keep you,

-Nathan

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Explore the prophetic contrast between the sea (v1) and the city (v2).

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Some commentators think of the sea (i.e., no more of it) in Rev 21:1 as the sea in Rev 13:1 and other places in the OT—which is symbolic of the place and source of chaos and evil. While I know that to be true, I also consider the possibility there will be no more sea in the sense that the land masses (continents) are no longer separated by vast bodies of water, so that humanity has easy access to its various glorified other sectors. So we still have large bodies of water, but not as they were.

 

[MW]

I don't think heaven, earth, and sea in Revelation should be understood as referring merely to physical entities, but have strong eschatological concepts attached to them which require careful analysis.

Chapters 4 and 5 are the two mirrors of the telescope through which the visions of Revelation are viewed and things afar off are seen to be near. In chap. 4 we have God's absolute dominion; in chap. 5 the mediatorial dominion of the Lamb. They begin with the viewpoint of the Psalms that the heaven is God's but He has given earth to the sons of men. The visions are concluded (chaps. 21, 22) by looking through the same two mirrors, only new Jerusalem comes out of heaven from God and the united throne of God and the lamb rules over and blesses all creation. In this vision all things have been reconciled and therefore there is no more sea.

Heaven and earth are being used in an "administrative" sense, and refer to the present order of things until the consummation when there will be a new administration symbolised in the new heaven and the new earth. In one sense the new creation is already at work in the redemption of men, but in another sense it will not be visible until the coming of Christ and final judgment.

From the viewpoint of earth our hope is in heaven, and cannot be in earth. In the two age scheme of New Testament eschatology we are led to see earth as corrupt and heaven as the place to which our affections should rise (Col. 3). The idea of living for ever on a renewed earth may turn out to be a reality in a reconciled and united heaven and earth, but we do not have any basis for this hope in biblical eschatology, and there is no reason to take the apocalyptic symbols geographically at this point.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

"The idea of living for ever on a renewed earth may turn out to be a reality in a reconciled and united heaven and earth, but we do not have any basis for this hope in biblical eschatology, and there is no reason to take the apocalyptic symbols geographically at this point." MW​

Well, this may be consistent with a "Consistent Idealism"-style hermeneutic, but I think Isaiah 65:17 and following refer to a real new heavens and new earth:

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.​

As does 2 Peter 3:13: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

So when John sees in vision the following, we indeed have this glorious hope to look forward to, that being,

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

What we see here is heavenly Jerusalem coming down from heaven to its new location upon the earth, where the dwelling—the tabernacle—of God will actually be among us, and His throne be on this planet. We shall actually see and fellowship with our Saviour, in whom dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9), on our streets and in our homes.

Neither will there be a temple, "for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it" (Rev 21:22), and as we are one with Him in His mystical body, we as well are the temple He dwells in. Of this New Jerusalem were are told, "The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal" (Rev 21:16), making it, in this symbolic image, a perfect cube of extraordinary dimensions. Is there any other perfect cube to be found in Scripture? Yes, in 1 Kings 6:16, 20 we see that the holy of holies is such a cube.

What this is telling us is that New Jerusalem on New Earth is itself the holy of holies—and what is New Jerusalem but, not only the city of God, but the bride herself (see Rev 21:2). The community of glorified saints is New Jerusalem, yet it is also the city proper, wherein is the River of Life "proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Rev 22:1), along the sides of which are the trees of life and their wondrous fruit and leaves. Are these things symbols of glorious realities? Yes, though I believe they are at the same time actual fruits and trees with marvellous properties.

We, the blood-bought and redeemed of Jesus Christ, will have—as our Saviour does also—real physical bodies, albeit glorified, and He has given us a glimpse of the real physical yet also glorified earth He is preparing for us to dwell upon as our new home. The very heart and soul, so to speak, of this global New Jerusalem will be the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb—in all Their wondrousness (words fail to convey)—in the midst of us. And herein will be utterly fulfilled the sayings, "I will be their God, and they will be My people", "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus!

 

[MW]

Well, this may be consistent with a "Consistent Idealism"-style hermeneutic

It is consistent with the type of biblical exegesis which is bound to rules of interpretation that stop men from trying to soar above themselves in flights of fancy and pry into things which God has not revealed.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

So those who do not believe the "consistent idealist" hermeneutic is key to Biblical understanding "soar above themselves in flights of fancy"? Methinks we've been around this bush before!

There are those who think God has revealed such things as spoken of in Revelation 21 and 22 to His beloved, as Paul said here:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God (1 Cor 2:9, 10).​

I think this is among those things.

 

[MW]

So those who do not believe the "consistent idealist" hermeneutic is key to Biblical understanding "soar above themselves in flights of fancy"? Methinks we've been around this bush before!

You raised "consistent idealism." I was referring back to my original post.

There are those who think God has revealed such things as spoken of in Revelation 21 and 22 to His beloved

And there are those who think Rev. 20 should be interpreted in the same fashion according to the same ideas and arrive at an earthly millennium after the coming of Christ.

The church universal believes in heaven. 2 Cor. 5:1; 1 Peter 1:4. Leave it to the fundamentalist hippies to imagine there's no heaven, and leave it to hip theologians to cater to their vain imaginations.

Larger Catechism, question 90, "What shall be done to the righteous at the day of judgment? Answer: At the day of judgment, the righteous, being caught up to Christ in the clouds, shall be set on his right hand, and there openly acknowledged and acquitted, shall join with him in the judging of reprobate angels and men, and shall be received into heaven, where they shall be fully and forever freed from all sin and misery; filled with inconceivable joys, made perfectly holy and happy both in body and soul, in the company of innumerable saints and holy angels, but especially in the immediate vision and fruition of God the Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, to all eternity. And this is the perfect and full communion, which the members of the invisible church shall enjoy with Christ in glory, at the resurrection and day of judgment."

 

[richardnz]

Rev 21 speaks at length about the holy city, the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, descending from heaven to earth. This is clearly the church. Eph 5:25-27, Is 54:5, and not a physical city.

The question naturally arises, “When does the descent take place?”.
The clues are in the text and the cross-references.

When do people start streaming into the Holy City? Heb 12:22 “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”

When do men say,”.. the tabernacle of God is with men and He shall dwell with them”? John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt [tabernacled] among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

When are the apostles as foundations of the city laid? Eph 2:20. “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;” see Rev 21:14

When is there a new creation? IICor5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

When do the saints start to reign as kings on the earth? (Rev 22:5) Rom 5:17 We reign in life,
Eph 2:6”And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus”,
Exodus 19:6,” And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”
Rev 20:6 “.. they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years”.

So the descending of the New Jerusalem is clearly connected with the arrival of Christ and the beginning of the NT church, the beginning of the kingdom. The problem is that we do not yet see the end of tears, sorrow, death etc, Rev21:4. We do not see the full extent of Christ's kingdom. This leads many to conclude that the passage must be referring to events at the Second Coming. Somehow it seems to be referring to both the beginning and the end.The most sensible solution seems to be that the church age, the thousand years, is a process of renewal inaugurated by Christ which culminates in the final perfection. The New Jerusalem has descended, but in a sense it is not fully descended. We reign with Christ now, but not fully, so we pray for His kingdom to come in the awareness that it has already arrived. The kingdom must be extended. Rev 21 and 22 are showing us the whole church age in one snapshot.

I think that this is what MW means by “realised millennium”. This would make me an optimistic amillennialist also.

The literal removal of the sea would be an unusual intrusion into a passage where everything else is not literal. My best attempt at explaining the removal of the sea is this: Note Ps114,

“When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;
Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.
The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.
The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.
What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?
Ye mountains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?
Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;”

The presence of the holy God causes all things of earth to flee from His presence.

Note also that the preceding verses of Rev 20 are explaining the final judgment, an event the whole of creation trembles at. Rev 20:11 says that upon the arrival of the great white throne, that the earth and heaven flee at the sight of the face of God coming in judgment. In connection with this flight Rev 21:1 has stated that “the first heaven and first earth had passed away”. The bible often refers to the three parts of creation, the heavens, the earth, and the sea.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day
Ps 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever

So the passage is saying that the first heaven has passed away, the first earth has passed away, and now it says the accompanying sea has passed away also, and their flight has made way for the new heavens, the new earth and, by implication, the new sea. I suspect that the reason for the fear of God and the necessary removal of the old order is due to the pollution of man's sin. So the passage is using the picture of a recreation of the physical world as a picture of the renewal of the spiritual.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

When was it first taught that the new heavens and new earth are meant to be taken as literal and physical?


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[Jerusalem Blade]

This is one of the reasons that some Christians say Amillennialism is part of liberal theology—seeing that some of its proponents “spiritualize” the Book of Revelation to the point it is eviscerated! All symbols and no historical referents, or as some turn it, all history is referred to, but nothing particular.

This sort of confusion is also why many shy from seriously studying the Apocalypse of John—so many contending views, and who can tell which is true?

Jeri, to answer your question, I’d say that at the least around 698 B.C.—the time of the prophet Isaiah—when he recorded the word of the LORD in his prophecy at Isa 65:17 ff., where the LORD says, “behold, I create new heavens and a new earth”, and speaks of building houses and planting vineyards, working with their hands (Isa 65:21, 22). Some say v 20 precludes it being the eternal state, but as Anthony Hoekema says, “Can one imagine a death not accompanied by weeping?” (The Bible and the Future, p 202), for Isa 65:19 says, "the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying." There will be no tears or sorrow on the new earth upon which Heaven has come down.

Our original ancestors, Adam and Eve, while still in the state of innocence—no death within them—were made for a physical world, and a paradisical garden. Looking forward to the paradise of New Earth, speaking of drinking wine, Jesus told His disciples,

I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom (Matt 26:29).​

Heaven in the intermediate state is not an earthly place, so the grapes and wine would have to be on the earth. When John sees “the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven” (Rev 21:2), it is coming down upon the earth, for in the next verse (Rev 21:3) God says He will now dwell with men. Jesus told His men that in His Father’s house are many mansions, and He is going to prepare a place for us in which to dwell (John 14:2). Where God is, there is Heaven. Heaven and earth are then to be one. So yes, we will dwell in Heaven, but that will be the new earth, where God now sits on His Throne (Rev 22:1). It is astonishing that we should be granted such glory and honor, to abide intimately with God Almighty.

I would say New Jerusalem is both city and community. There will be a throne, dwellings, streets, a river, trees; we will eat and drink, build, sing, worship, labor. With our glorified physical bodies we are meant for an environment both physical and glorified.

I could go on about this, and will, but for now I have to get to bed early so as to rise early, for tomorrow my better half and I go to worship our King, our Saviour God!

 

[TylerRay]

From the viewpoint of earth our hope is in heaven, and cannot be in earth. In the two age scheme of New Testament eschatology we are led to see earth as corrupt and heaven as the place to which our affections should rise (Col. 3). The idea of living for ever on a renewed earth may turn out to be a reality in a reconciled and united heaven and earth, but we do not have any basis for this hope in biblical eschatology, and there is no reason to take the apocalyptic symbols geographically at this point.

Rev. Winzer,

I agree with you concerning consistent idealism, and that includes the last chapters of Revelation. How, though, would you interpret Paul's statement in Romans 8 about the whole creation groaning until it is delivered from corruption? He sets this up as parallel to our own groaning until the resurrection, and implies that its deliverance will be concurrent with ours.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello RichardNZ (welcome to PB!),

You said, “When do people start streaming into the Holy City? Heb 12:22 ‘But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels’ ”. Yes, but this is in spirit while we are in this present age—so it has indeed begun—as Isaiah 2:2,3 also shows.

But in the eternal age it will be realized on New Earth—upon which the heart of Heaven, New Jerusalem and the throne of God, has come down—and in our glorified bodies we will stream throughout that glorious world, as John shows us in Rev 21:22-26,

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.​

Physicality and bodies are part of God’s wonderful inheritance for us (the King Himself has a glorified human body), and we shall live wondrously and happily ever after.

 

[MW]

From the viewpoint of earth our hope is in heaven, and cannot be in earth. In the two age scheme of New Testament eschatology we are led to see earth as corrupt and heaven as the place to which our affections should rise (Col. 3). The idea of living for ever on a renewed earth may turn out to be a reality in a reconciled and united heaven and earth, but we do not have any basis for this hope in biblical eschatology, and there is no reason to take the apocalyptic symbols geographically at this point.

Rev. Winzer,

I agree with you concerning consistent idealism, and that includes the last chapters of Revelation. How, though, would you interpret Paul's statement in Romans 8 about the whole creation groaning until it is delivered from corruption? He sets this up as parallel to our own groaning until the resurrection, and implies that its deliverance will be concurrent with ours.

On the parallel view, as taught by Calvin, the creature is nature seeking its own preservation and perfection, which is in accord with the analogy of faith. If we work with this interpretation nature itself will be renewed at the regeneration or restitution of all things. This would be equivalent to new heavens and new earth, and many commentators take it as referring to the same thing. Still, there is no mention of living on a new earth. The idea has no Scriptural basis. The very structure of NT eschatology contrasts the earthy with the heavenly and leads us to seek resurrection life in the heavenly man. The Lord from heaven ascended to heaven to prepare a place for us. From there He will come again to receive us to Himself that where He is there we may be also. We change our abode to be with Him, He does not change His abode to be with us.

The new earth habitation theory is based on the misreading of one Scripture.

 

[MW]

From Jonathan Edwards' Miscellaneous Observations:

Heaven — the eternal abode of the church. The house not made with hands is eternal in the heavens; but, if the saints' abode in heaven be temporary as well as their abode on earth, it would not be said so; their house there would be but a tabernacle as well as here. By the house eternal in the heavens, it is evident there is some respect had to the resurrection body, which proves that the place of the abode of the saints after the resurrection will be in heaven, as well as before.

If the saints were only to stay in heaven till the resurrection, then they would be pilgrims and strangers in heaven, as well as on earth, and the country that the saints of old declared plainly that they sought, though they were in possession of the earthly Canaan, will be but a temporary Canaan, as well as the earth; and in some respects more so, because the earth is to be their eternal abode, (though changed,) and not heaven.

We are directed to lay up treasure in heaven, as in a safe place, where it will be subject to no change or remove. The names of the saints are written or enrolled in heaven, and they have their citizenship in heaven, as being their proper fixed abode where they belong, and where they are to be settled. The inheritance, incorruptible, is reserved in heaven for the saints, and they are kept by the power of God to this salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time, or at the day of judgment. So that the inheritance in heaven is the saints' proper, incorruptible, and everlasting inheritance; and the saints shall be so far from changing the place of their abode in heaven for an abode on a renewed earth at the day of judgment, that this is the proper time of the church's being translated to this incorruptible inheritance in heaven, and the whole army of Israel's passing Jordan to that inheritance; for that is the last time wherein this salvation shall be revealed.

The Lord from heaven does not come to give his elect the country of the earthly Adam only renewed to the paradisaical state wherein the earthly Adam enjoyed it; Col. i. 5. "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven." The proper time of the reward of the saints is after the resurrection, as is evident by Luke xiv. 14, "But thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just;" and the proper place of that reward is heaven, as is evident by Matth. v. 12, "Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven;" Heb. x. 34, "Ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance;" and the time, when the apostle encourages them that they shall receive this enduring substance in heaven, is when Christ comes to judgment, as is evident by the three following verses.

Christ is entered into the holiest of all, and is set down for ever on the right hand of God in heaven, and therefore will not eternally leave heaven to dwell in this lower world in a renewed state.

Christ ascended into heaven as the forerunner of the church; and therefore the whole church shall enter there, even that part that shall be found alive at the day of judgment. Christ entered into heaven with his risen and glorified body, as an earnest of the same resurrection and ascension to the bodies of the saints; therefore, when the bodies of the saints shall rise, they shall also ascend into heaven.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Thank you, Matthew, for that quote of Warfield's. He does support the view you hold. But I do not believe the apostle John supports his view. I quote from two portions of Rev 21, verses 1-5 and 9-11a, which are as follows:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful...

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God...​

In these passages the phrases I want to focus on are "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven", and again, John says an angel "shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God"; and then, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

We have John describing the move of new Jerusalem (aka "the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem" Heb 12:22, and also "Jerusalem which is above" Gal 4:26), "descending out of heaven from God" and "coming down from God out of heaven" and to what end? That "the tabernacle of God [be] with men...[so that] he will dwell with them".

Now this cannot be dismissed with a facile "The new earth habitation theory is based on the misreading of one Scripture", as what I present is a complex of Scripture, with a plain sense, the venerable Warfield notwithstanding.

The entire city of God, new Jerusalem, is leaving heaven, said in one place, "descending out of" and in another "coming down from God out of" to the place which is, purportedly, to be the fitting abode of men, the new earth. There really is no other place for the city of God to descend or come down to save earth. And that is the initial subject of John's vision, a new earth, as well a new heaven.

As a spiritual domain heaven has a certain meaning; as a cosmic / geographical realm heaven has another, as in the heavens. The heaven of God is what it is because it is His abode, as it were—where His throne is—and the city called by His name. When that city is moved from the dimension it has been in to another, namely planet earth, I would say that heaven has come down to earth, as God desires to be with His children. His Son, the Lord Christ, through the virgin birth, became united with the human nature, and in the resurrection that which was mortal is given to put on immortality (1 Cor 15:52, 53, 54), so heaven and earth now joined in the Person of the Lord Jesus, we have a new creation—an utterly new thing: “And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new” (Rev 21:5).

The plain testimony of Scripture is to be our standard, not that of men however brilliant.

 

[MW]

In these passages the phrases I want to focus on are "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven", and again, John says an angel "shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God"; and then, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

There is nothing about dwelling on earth there, Steve. You are reading the idea into the statements. It has no basis in the word of God, and runs contradictory to the express teaching of the Word. You should consider re-examining your theory in the light of Edwards' very straightforward Observations from Scripture, and in light of the reformed position as plainly taught in the Larger Catechism.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Matthew,

Thanks for the mental / spiritual exercise (I have learned a lot opposing you on a couple of topics—though in the main I agree with you on most things). How do you understand the passage in Isaiah 65:17-25? What's Isaiah saying?

And also, where is the new Jerusalem coming down to, as it clearly is leaving heaven?

 

[MW]

Steve, Isaiah was an Old Testament prophet writing before the Christ came in the flesh and the kingdom's inauguration with Him. He casts many things in the mould of the earthy figures with which he and the people were acquainted. We must look beyond these "land-bound" images to the true "inheritance-rest" which Christ gives His people in heavenly places, as the eschatology of Ephesians so clearly teaches.

I simply recommend looking at the various commentators on the idea of coming down out of heaven. The image conveys the impression that it is according to the divine plan and by God's gift, not a matter of human enterprise as with the building of Babylon. To extend the image beyond its intended reference point would require allegorical interpretation.

 

[richardnz]

Steve, I am not opposed to Hoekema's view that our resurrected material bodies dwell in a renewed physical world. It is a long time since I read “The Bible and the Future”, but my recollection is that although he makes a good case Hoekema did not use Rev 21 to illustrate the physical nature of our future abode.

In considering the meaning of the new heavens and new earth I recommend Calvin's commentary on Is 65.17

“ For, lo, I will create new heavens and a new earth. By these metaphors he promises a remarkable change of affairs; as if God had said that he has both the inclination and the power not only to restore his Church, but to restore it in such a manner that it shall appear to gain new life and to dwell in a new world. These are exaggerated modes of expression; but the greatness of such a blessing, which was to be manifested at the coming of Christ, could not be described in any other way. Nor does he mean only the first coming, but the whole reign, which must be extended as far as to the last coming, as we have already said in expounding other passages.
Thus the world is (so to speak) renewed by Christ; and hence also the Apostle (Heb 2:5) calls it “a new age,” and undoubtedly alludes to this statement of the Prophet. Yet the Prophet speaks of the restoration of the Church after the return from Babylon. This is undoubtedly true; but that restoration is imperfect, if it be not extended as far as to Christ; and even now we are in the progress and accomplishment of it, and those things will not be fulfilled till the last resurrection, which has been prescribed to be our limit.”
Note that Calvin says the creation of the new heavens and earth begins with the NT church, but extends over the whole reign. The answer to Hoekema's problem with no weeping in the church age is answered by Calvin's reference to “exaggerated modes of expression”. The misery of unbelief is to a degree alleviated by Christ when we are saved, but not eliminated until Christ comes the second time.
The idea that the New Heavens and the New Earth refer to the first coming of Christ would in general be seen as a radical view to day. However John Owen and others held the same view as Calvin.
The idea that Rev 21 & 22 pictures the church in this millennium together with the future makes it so much easier to understand all the figurative language. In addition to those things I mentioned before, look at the picture of the river of life proceeding from the throne of God. Does God sit on a physical throne? Has the water of life ever been visible? Then we have the leaves of the tree of life healing the nations. Why is there a need for healing if this is is set in the post-judgment day future?

The more you look at the use of biblical language in this passage the more difficult it becomes to see this as having any physical reference at all. It is all about the glory of Christ and the Church.

 

[Peairtach]

I don't know if anyone knows what a spiritual body is (I Corinthians 15:44), at least precisely, so it is difficult to speak of the exact nature of the new heavens and new earth, which will be appropriate for such glorified bodies.

As regards the sea, it is undoubtedly used in symbolical terms in Revelation. The forces of evil and chaos are associated with it.

 

[MW]

In support of Calvin's inaugurated view of the new heavens and new earth note the difference in perspectives in Isaiah, 2 Peter 3, and Rev. 21. In the first it is to be created, in the second it is to be looked for, and in the third it is seen as a vision. Also, Isaiah has a parallelism which ties the old heavens and earth to an administration as something which shall not be remembered or come into the mind.

 

[MW]

Is there any connection to be made here to the view that the garden was a temporary, probationary state? Or is that question completely decoupled from this one?

I hadn't thought of that connection, but it seems one's view might be tied in with whether the Adamic administration is seen as promising continued life on earth or a translation to heaven. But then, even on the idea of continued earthly life, the fall might still be seen as necessitating a translation to heaven, as with Enoch.