Question concerning salvation

[Hiskid84]

In writing my bio (testimony) for entrance to the board I began to wonder about something. Because of the way God saved me I find that I have preconceived ideas about how He operates. I've seen over and over that salvation experiences are as unique and varied as we humans are. What I want is to find Scriptural texts that do show how God operates in salvation. I know that sounds a lot like the "What must I do to be saved" question but if you'll bear with me I'll try to explain what it is I'm looking for.

In my own salvation experience I briefly attended a church prior to my conversion where the gospel was presented to me (in a slide show, no less). Before this time I did not know who Jesus Christ was though it wasn't my first time to attend a church and I'm certain not my very first time to hear the gospel. For some reason though, this time I understood (with my mind) who Jesus was and what He had done to provide salvation. I always assumed that it was God's timing and plan and that it was all part of the process of drawing me to Him. However, when I first began to discuss this with my husband he initially thought I was saying that I believed we had to possess some knowledge of Jesus prior to conversion and therefore we played a part in salvation (it was "our" knowledge). Not his fault for thinking that...I didn't explain very well what I really meant. I'm not sure I can do much better trying to explain it here but here goes:

If, by the power of the Holy Spirit upon regeneration, we have the faith to believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ, does God, beforehand, bring to us the gospel message (by whatever means and in whatever time: seconds, days, months, years) so that when He saves us we understand WHO it is we now have faith in? Or can the knowledge of the person and work of Christ accompany salvation by some type of spiritual osmosis thing?

I would ask the question, "What must I KNOW to be saved?" but then I'd be back to square one trying to explain that it's not our knowledge per se, but what God reveals to us (as being all part of His salvation plan).

All tied in with this are many other questions but I'm going to limit my post to this one in the hopes that at least one person understands what I'm trying to say.

So far the text in Romans 10:14-17 seems to support my thought. Especially verse 15: And how shall they believe in Him [b:da05120f01]of whom they have not heard[/b:da05120f01]? and verse 17: So then [b:da05120f01]faith comes by hearing[/b:da05120f01], and hearing by the word of God.
Or have I taken them completely out of context?

Edited to add: Ephesians 1:11-15, esp. vs. 13: "In Him you also trusted, [b:da05120f01]after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation[/b:da05120f01]; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"


Help...anyone?

Karen

 

[turmeric]

You know that it's possible to hear the Gospel a jillion times and not believe. It's not [b:7ee83940a3]knowing[/b:7ee83940a3] but [b:7ee83940a3]believing[/b:7ee83940a3] that matters, and this is a work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

However there seems to be some content to what we believe, that Jesus is God's Son, He came to earth to die for our sins, but to what extent we must understand that intellectually I don't know. It's not the intellect that saves anyway, it's not emotion either, it is God's work, I don't understand it.

 

[py3ak]

Faith is impossible without knowledge

Karen,

Faith must have content. What am I believing? Whom do I believe in? If someone told that you they believed in [i:3f08fbdc26]kembu van[/i:3f08fbdc26] with all their hearts, but couldn't tell you who or what it is (a tribal deity of the Yali in Indonesia) their belief would be a pure figment. So I don't believe you are taking the verses you quoted out of context at all. You can put it in these terms: there is a form to the gospel, and there is a glory to the gospel. Anyone with a normal mind can get the form of the gospel; but until God illumines them they don't see the glory in it. However, without knowledge of the form they wouldn't have any environment in which to behold the glory. This is why preaching is commanded; men have to be told, they have to be informed. It is not their intellect or grasp of the truth that saves them, it is Christ who saves them. But they will not believe in Him if they do not know something about Him.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Just John's Gospel tells us we are to BELIEVE:

NKJ John 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c].

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in His name:

50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]? You will see greater things than these."

NKJ John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c], how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

18 "He who [b:d4b003ae2c]believes [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 "He who [b:d4b003ae2c]believes [/b:d4b003ae2c]in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

NKJ John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.

42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c], not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]."

NKJ John 5:38 "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c].

44 "How can you [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c], who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

46 "For if you [b:d4b003ae2c]believed [/b:d4b003ae2c]Moses, you would [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]Me; for he wrote about Me.

47 "But if you do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]his writings, how will you believe My words?"

NKJ John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Him whom He sent."

30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]You? What work will You do?

36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c].

64 "But there are some of you who do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c], and who would betray Him.

69 "Also we have come to [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

NKJ John 7:5 For even His brothers did not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Him.

NKJ John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that I am He, you will die in your sins."

45 "But because I tell the truth, you do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]Me.

46 "Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]Me?

NKJ John 9:18 But the Jews did not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight.

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in the Son of God?"

36 He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Him?"

38 Then he said, "Lord, I [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]!" And he worshiped Him.

NKJ John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

26 "But you do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c], because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]Me;

38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

NKJ John 11:15 "And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]. Nevertheless let us go to him."

26 "And whoever lives and [b:d4b003ae2c]believes [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."

40 Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you would [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]you would see the glory of God?"

42 "And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that You sent Me."

48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation."

NKJ John 12:36 "While you have the light, [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Him,

39 Therefore they could not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c], because Isaiah said again:

47 "And if anyone hears My words and does not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c], I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

NKJ John 13:19 "Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that I am He.

NKJ John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in God, [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]also in Me.

10 "Do you not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

11 "[b:d4b003ae2c]Believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

29 "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c].

NKJ John 16:9 "of sin, because they do not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Me;

30 "Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that You came forth from God."

31 Jesus answered them, "Do you now [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]?

NKJ John 17:20 " I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]in Me through their word;

21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that You sent Me.

NKJ John 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c].

NKJ John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not [b:d4b003ae2c]believe[/b:d4b003ae2c]."

31 but these are written that you may [b:d4b003ae2c]believe [/b:d4b003ae2c]that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[Hiskid84]

Thanks for your input

I really appreciate your replies. I found something very helpful in another post: Ordo Salutis. I'd never heard of it but it does seem to answer my question. It certainly is interesting to read about!

Webmaster, thank you for taking time to list all of those awesome verses in John! My husband just told me the other day that a good exercise for a new convert I know would be for her to read the book of John and make note of every place the word "believe" (or a variation of it) is found. Great stuff!

Thank you, everyone.
Karen