Purpose @ The Church of Startbucks

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Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Well, it's begun....

Check-out this shameless promotion from the church website...but, instead of uselessly complaining....try and see if we can analyze the "problems" with the situation. ???

I'm preparing to engage the culture for Christ (not Rick Warren) when that moment arises at the "church of Starbucks!" How 'bout you?

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=8083

Thoughts? :detective:

Robin
 

Scott Shahan

Puritan Board Sophomore
Robin,

I personally think that the "mega" church that is hungry for recognition, money hungry, "worldliness is basically out to lunch. What's up with hanging out in your 50 million dollar church in the suburbs, and it is all about "feeling good," christians have to "feel good" or there is something wrong with your faith. Can a church ever justify say a "crystal cathedral'; I guess they say bigger is better... Hey maybe they should bring in Mcdonalds to our local churches to so that we can get a happy meal for breakfast...then we can all "feel good".. sorry folks I read articles like this one and they make me sick, and it is so hard for me not to get a little pessimistic and cynical. I am tired of seeing the "church" being influnced by the world. just my :2cents::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
 

weinhold

Puritan Board Freshman
I really don't understand the problem with the Starbucks thing. I read the article. Did I miss something?
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
Paul,
What Robin is reacting to is another blatant example of a church doing what Romans 12 tells us not to do.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

One will argue that in order to be fishers of men we need to use the right lures. The right bait must be something that will appeal to the senses of the 'fish'. Because the unsaved are wordlings then our approach must be some clever device that looks worldly or just a wordly lure that we can switch later. Instead of trusting the Spirit to work we use a deceptive bait and switch to move things along.

There are those of us who believe that because God is sovereign in salvation and because regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit, God doesn't need to use these trite and wordly means. In connecting the beautiful and unique message of the gospel with a worldly hook our message will become as irrelevant as the hook.

I went to a church last week and I gracefully told the pastor after that I would have appreciated hearing him preach rather than watching the movie he showed instead. He went to his outreach table and handed me a cd of one of his sermons, it was called, "Growing Up Godly". I thanked him for it and he looked disappointed at me. He said, "Don't you get it, it's like 'Growing Up Gotti'?

I don't have my face stuck in front of the tv, I'm a neo-puritan after all, so I didn't get it. I looked at the rest of his sermons titles. They were all clever uses of tv titles and cultural trivia. Now one may call me smug for not seeing the efficacy of these methods, but I hate associating God's Word with the pattern of this world.

I went to a seminar on outreach and they showed us how to get a video camera and make a cool video that 'hawked' Jesus through a format that looked like "Who Wants to be a Millionaire". Now churches are encouraged to use the DaVinci Code as a hook. It's always something similar.

I might be able to see how these things can be used in an outreach program but what most often happens is this worldly pattern is used in the worship service. That is the big offense. Worship is 'anything goes' these days and we wish to see a purity of worship.

Lastly sir, I don't mean to sound like I'm talking down to you. This is a public forum and so I'm trying to give more context than perhaps you needed. Blessings Paul.

[Edited on 4-22-2006 by BobVigneault]
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Here's my concept for a coffee cup design:

reformedstarbucks.gif
 

Casey

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by BobVigneault
...

I went to a church last week and I gracefully told the pastor after that I would have appreciated hearing him preach rather than watching the movie he showed instead. He went to his outreach table and handed me a cd of one of his sermons, it was called, "Growing Up Godly". I thanked him for it and he looked disappointed at me. He said, "Don't you get it, it's like 'Growing Up Gotti'?

I don't have my face stuck in front of the tv, I'm a neo-puritan after all, so I didn't get it. I looked at the rest of his sermons titles. They were all clever uses of tv titles and cultural trivia. Now one may call me smug for not seeing the efficacy of these methods, but I hate associating God's Word with the pattern of this world.

...
Bob, I don't get it either. Though, I often don't get sports illustrations either. :(
 

JKLeoPCA

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by Robin
Well, it's begun....

Check-out this shameless promotion from the church website...but, instead of uselessly complaining....try and see if we can analyze the "problems" with the situation. ???

I'm preparing to engage the culture for Christ (not Rick Warren) when that moment arises at the "church of Starbucks!" How 'bout you?

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=8083

Thoughts? :detective:

Robin


Have you thought of getting a group to draft a new 95 Thesis to nail on their church door? 2017 is coming up soon. It would make for an awesome anniversary.

Just my thought on the matter.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
What if this had been on the cup?

Acts 17

22So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him.

Wasn't he in the ancient day's equivalent of a Starbucks delivering a message?

[Edited on 4-23-2006 by jdlongmire - had "modern day" as opposed to "ancient day" - tx for the correction!]

[Edited on 4-23-2006 by jdlongmire]
 

turmeric

Megerator
I think you meant Starbucks is a modern day Areopagus. Maybe so. Anyway, it might make for some interesting discussions. God moves in mysterious ways, after all, and St. Paul said he didn't mind who preached or what their motive was so long as the Gospel was preached. Given that Warren only had a little room on the cup, thank God, he didn't do too badly.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
J.D.,

Last time you and I discussed the issue of the Purpose Driven "approach" it got a bit too heated. I never asked your forgiveness for being too strident. It's been too long. Please forgive me.

I do want to say, however, that I believe that it is one thing to be able to talk in ways that people understand and it is another to compromise the Gospel and call it making the Gospel "relevant". I believe the Saddleback approach does the latter.

I'm in an International Church with Japanese, Americans, Filipinos, Chinese, Canadians, Argentinians, and Texans. I teach Adult Sunday School to such a crowd and I've been asked to exhort this coming Sunday. I certainly have an appreciation for making sure that my message "relates" or "translates" to a given culture.

One thing I have found is true in spite of these divergent cultures: they all "get" depravity and they all "get" their need for a savior. I may have to qualify some terms but I don't have to start making Christianity seem like a form of Ancestor worship to relate to the Japanese.

I believe Suburban, white Americans need LESS affirmation that their self-absorption is worthy of consideration rather than more. It packs the seats but it doesn't challenge them. We also export that attitude with the missionaries that America sends by patterning them according to some sort of model that works to build White Churches but is foreign to these cultures. It's just weird seeing Japanese acting like American charismatics but they think that's "Christian" culture.

There was (and probably still is) a newspaper in San Diego that reported on San Diego culture and was a weekly event guide. One of the recurring articles was a guy (a pagan) who would visit Churches in the area and "evaluate" the Church. It was interesting to see a pagan report on the Church and notice the formulaic approach of the "cool" youth guy trying to relate to the kids, the praise band leader with the perfect hair with a band that did pretty decent imitations of pop culture, and the "I just want to be your friend" Pastor who gave a nice message that was relevant to people's lives. It's the common formula. They're not fooling anybody.

Want relevant? Give people an answer for their sin. You might have to change a few analogies and be a bit careful with your words but even a poor Japanese woman, a Christian for 65 years, persecuted and rejected by her family for her faith understands it. That message is trans-cultural and transformative.
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by jdlongmire
What if this had been on the cup?

Acts 17

22So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him.

Wasn't he in the ancient day's equivalent of a Starbucks delivering a message?

:up::up: My thoughts exactly, JD!

Hey, let's start another thread with our own "Starbucks" (Reformed) mottos...???

:cool:

R.
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
This is the important part to get on the cup...


Acts 17:27-31

Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

Take THAT with your latte!

:cool:

r.
 

CalsFarmer

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by JKLeoPCA
Originally posted by Robin
Well, it's begun....

Check-out this shameless promotion from the church website...but, instead of uselessly complaining....try and see if we can analyze the "problems" with the situation. ???

I'm preparing to engage the culture for Christ (not Rick Warren) when that moment arises at the "church of Starbucks!" How 'bout you?

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=8083

Thoughts? :detective:

Robin


Have you thought of getting a group to draft a new 95 Thesis to nail on their church door? 2017 is coming up soon. It would make for an awesome anniversary.

Just my thought on the matter.

Can I sign it too? ;)
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
Please forgive me

:) - you know I do! Sorry if I got strident, as well ...(how do you do the handshaking smilie? :handshake: ) [edited to add - I guessed it! :D]

Want relevant? Give people an answer for their sin. You might have to change a few analogies and be a bit careful with your words but even a poor Japanese woman, a Christian for 65 years, persecuted and rejected by her family for her faith understands it. That message is trans-cultural and transformative.

No disagreement here - solus Christus! - but we shouldn't share the characteristics of the persecutors, either.

[Edited on 4-24-2006 by jdlongmire]
 
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