Purpose Driven Covenant

Status
Not open for further replies.

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Today I am stepping across the line. I´m tired of waffling and I´m finished with wavering, I´ve made my choice, the verdict is in, and my decision is irrevocable. I´m going God´s way. There´s no turning back now!

I will live the rest of my life serving God´s purposes with God´s people on God´s planet for God´s glory. I will use my life to celebrate his presence, cultivate his character, participate in his family, demonstrate his love, and communicate his word.

Since my past has been forgiven, and I have a purpose for living, and a home awaiting in heaven, I refuse to waste any more time or energy on shallow living, petty thinking, trivial talking, thoughtless doing, useless regretting, hurtful resenting, or faithless worrying. Instead I will magnify God, grow to maturity, serve in ministry, and fulfill my mission in the membership of his family.

Because this life is preparation for the next, I will value worship over wealth, "œwe" over "œme", character over comfort, service over status, and people over possessions, position, and pleasures. I know what matters most and I´ll give it all I´ve got. I´ll do the best I can with what I have for Jesus Christ today.

I won´t be captivated by culture, manipulated by critics, motivated by praise, frustrated by problems, debilitated by temptation, or intimidated by the devil. I´ll keep running my race with my eyes on the goal, not the sidelines or those running by me. When times get tough, and I get tired, I won´t back up, back off, back down, back out or backslide. I´ll just keep moving forward by God´s grace. I´m Spirit-led, purpose-driven and mission-focused so I cannot be bought, I will not be compromised, and I shall not quit until I finish the race.

I´m a trophy of God´s amazing grace so I will be gracious to everyone, grateful for everyday, and generous with everything that God entrusts to me.

To my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I say: However, Whenever, Wherever, and Whatever you ask me to do, my answer in advance is yes! Wherever you lead and whatever the cost, I´m ready. Anytime. Anywhere. Anyway. Whatever it takes Lord; Whatever it takes! I want to be used by you in such a way, that on that final day I´ll hear you say, "œWell done, thou good and faithful one. Come on in, and let the eternal party begin!"

http://saddleback.com/flash/default.htm

So...what's wrong with this picture? :um:
 

rjlynam

Puritan Board Sophomore
Wow, instant sanctification ! Just name it and claim it. Reading this, it sounds like it's all about self.

My response would be

"It ain't all about you, it ain't all about me, it's all about Jesus"!
 

jaybird0827

PuritanBoard Honor Roll
Where is the grace of God in all this?

This reminds me of one of the "hymns" that God used to drive me to Psalmody, "Jesus, I Am Resting, Resting". In other words, has anyone counted the number of occurrances of the first person singular (I, me, mine) in this monstrosity?
 

turmeric

Megerator
Keswick for the 21st Century!

He seems to make the usual Evanjellyfish mistake. WE did not make any covenant with God, HE made a covenant with us, anc Christ carried out the demands and suffered the penalties of the covenant in our stead. Therefore, with His help, we will live a life that reflects trust and gratitude.

[Edited on 9-17-2006 by turmeric]
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by turmeric
Keswick for the 21st Century!

He seems to make the usual Evanjellyfish mistake. WE did not make any covenant with God, HE made a covenant with us, anc Christ carried out the demands and suffered the penalties of the covenant in our stead. Therefore, with His help, we will live a life that reflects trust and gratitude.

[Edited on 9-17-2006 by turmeric]

Exactly! Stupid is as stupid does. This is more like a vow at best.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
2 Kings 11:17
And Jehoiada made a covenant between the LORD and the king and people, that they should be the LORD's people, and also between the king and the people.

2 Kings 23:3
And the king stood by the pillar and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all his heart and all his soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people joined in the covenant.

2 Chronicles 29:10
Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD, the God of Israel, in order that his fierce anger may turn away from us.

Ezra 10:3
Therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and their children, according to the counsel of my lord and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God, and let it be done according to the Law.

...not without precedent. Particularly if the intent is to glorify God.

-JD

[Edited on 9-17-2006 by jdlongmire]
 

WrittenFromUtopia

Puritan Board Graduate
Originally posted by jdlongmire
2 Kings 11:17
And Jehoiada made a covenant between the LORD and the king and people, that they should be the LORD's people, and also between the king and the people.

2 Kings 23:3
And the king stood by the pillar and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all his heart and all his soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people joined in the covenant.

2 Chronicles 29:10
Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD, the God of Israel, in order that his fierce anger may turn away from us.

Ezra 10:3
Therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and their children, according to the counsel of my lord and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God, and let it be done according to the Law.

...not without precedent. Particularly if the intent is to glorify God.

-JD

[Edited on 9-17-2006 by jdlongmire]

God made a covenant with those people first, though.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
just as Christ did with us...look - not going to get tit for tat, here - just wonder why we are so unecessarily critical...

-JD
 

turmeric

Megerator
It's not un-necessary. This kind of thing is an example of what most modern "Evangelical" churches teach; that WE are seeking God. It's true that some of us would pick on anything Warren does, but the problem is that so much of what he teaches is either feel-good itching ear remedy or works-driven sanctification, or the two mixed together; and that doesn't help anyone.
 

ef

Puritan Board Freshman
Check out Horton's article from MR "The Promise Driven Life." He refutes this Roman Catholicism in Evangelical clothing so fast it'll make Rick Warren... uh...

Ok, I don't know what it'll make him do. But its great for a person who really cares about what the Bible has to say about salvation.
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
I am not a Warren fan, but this is not typical of evangelicalism. It is a denial of self, cultural fads, inappropriate preoccupation with wealth, etc. I just skimmed it, but it looks like every affirmation would be consistent with reformed ethics and is certainly better than wordly ethics or the ethics of the evangelical world generally. Also, there is nothing wrong with the focus on "I" in terms of someone making a personal declaration. God's sovereignty does not mean that people have not natural liberty. This is just an expanded way of saying "As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord." The psalms of full of "I" statements and self-referential declarations.
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Robin
.... Whatever it takes! I want to be used by you in such a way, that on that final day I´ll hear you say, "œWell done, thou good and faithful one. Come on in, and let the eternal party begin!"

http://saddleback.com/flash/default.htm

So...what's wrong with this picture? :um:

Works based righteousness. Our rightousness can only be secured through faith in Christ, not through our obedience.
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
There is a big difference between "I" in the Psalms and "I" in most evanjellyfish hymns.
Let's take an excerpt from the Saddleback delcaration (not a hymn, but it is what the thread is about):

"I will live the rest of my life serving God´s purposes with God´s people on God´s planet for God´s glory."

What is objectionable with that sentence?
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
Works based righteousness. Our rightousness can only be secured through faith in Christ, not through our obedience.
Can you point to the specific parts of the declaration that suggest works-based righteousness?
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
works righteousness

Originally posted by Scott
Works based righteousness. Our righteousness can only be secured through faith in Christ, not through our obedience.
Can you point to the specific parts of the declaration that suggest works-based righteousness?

Yes, the part I quoted.

Originally posted by Robin
.... Whatever it takes! I want to be used by you in such a way, that on that final day I´ll hear you say, "œWell done, thou good and faithful one. Come on in, and let the eternal party begin!"

This easily gives the impression that the righteousness we are credited with ("good and faithful") is based on our works (" in such a waythat" ).

The whole document speaks of living righteously. That's fine. We should strive to live a life for God's glory. But the reason we do is gratitude that God promised not to give us the reward we deserve (damnation for our sins), and we are only enabled to live righteousness by the power of the Holy Spirit.

When we stand before God, if we are one of the elect, then because of Christ's obedience will we be declared righteous, not because of our own good deeds. We will be rewarded for our good deeds, but the only way we can be considered "good and faithful" is because we believed in Christ's perfect life and sacrifice for our salvation.
 

turmeric

Megerator
Originally posted by Robin
Today I am stepping across the line. I´m tired of waffling and I´m finished with wavering, I´ve made my choice, the verdict is in, and my decision is irrevocable. I´m going God´s way. There´s no turning back now!

There's your first problem, in bold.

I will live the rest of my life serving God´s purposes with God´s people on God´s planet for God´s glory. I will use my life to celebrate his presence, cultivate his character, participate in his family, demonstrate his love, and communicate his word.

Since my past has been forgiven, and I have a purpose for living, and a home awaiting in heaven, I refuse to waste any more time or energy on shallow living, petty thinking, trivial talking, thoughtless doing, useless regretting, hurtful resenting, or faithless worrying. Instead I will magnify God, grow to maturity, serve in ministry, and fulfill my mission in the membership of his family.

These are good things, and we should try to do them, but the notion that I can decide, on day X, that I'm going to do this, to be 'sold-out" as they used to say when I was growing up, is a hold-over from Keswick or Wesleyanism or some other kind of perfectionism. I can't make myself into a mdel Christian by deciding to do so at some point in time. I can, and must, make every attempt to obey God's will revealed in Scripture; knowing that I am never doing so adequately or acceptably. In the end, we are unprofitable servants, but we are objects of God's grace, as this document affirms.



Because this life is preparation for the next, I will value worship over wealth, "œwe" over "œme", character over comfort, service over status, and people over possessions, position, and pleasures. I know what matters most and I´ll give it all I´ve got. I´ll do the best I can with what I have for Jesus Christ today.

Yes, this is good, we should attempt it.

I won´t be captivated by culture, manipulated by critics, motivated by praise, frustrated by problems, debilitated by temptation, or intimidated by the devil. I´ll keep running my race with my eyes on the goal, not the sidelines or those running by me. When times get tough, and I get tired, I won´t back up, back off, back down, back out or backslide. I´ll just keep moving forward by God´s grace. I´m Spirit-led, purpose-driven and mission-focused so I cannot be bought, I will not be compromised, and I shall not quit until I finish the race.

I´m a trophy of God´s amazing grace so I will be gracious to everyone, grateful for everyday, and generous with everything that God entrusts to me.

This still sounds like perfectionism to me.

To my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I say: However, Whenever, Wherever, and Whatever you ask me to do, my answer in advance is yes! Wherever you lead and whatever the cost, I´m ready. Anytime. Anywhere. Anyway. Whatever it takes Lord; Whatever it takes! I want to be used by you in such a way, that on that final day I´ll hear you say, "œWell done, thou good and faithful one. Come on in, and let the eternal party begin!"

This formula, with the underlying assumption that God cannot and will not use one unless, at a point in time after salvation, one "surrenders" to Jesus is classic Keswick - and ubiquitous to modern evangelicalism.

What's wrong with it? If we could do it, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it - it's a paraphrase of the Law, which is holy, just and good, and which I prefer as it is recorded in Scripture. But I still can't keep it, even if I take the whole Class series by Rick Warren, or go to the Keswick Convention, or even sit under the ministry of Sproul or MacArthur.

I rest my case.
 

ef

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by Scott
There is a big difference between "I" in the Psalms and "I" in most evanjellyfish hymns.
Let's take an excerpt from the Saddleback delcaration (not a hymn, but it is what the thread is about):

"I will live the rest of my life serving God´s purposes with God´s people on God´s planet for God´s glory."

What is objectionable with that sentence?

It is a fundamental confusion of Law & Gospel here. Are the things that Pastor Warren suggests wicked or according to the values of the world? No. Were the things that the Pharisees were trying to do wicked in and of themselves? No.

The thing that is missing here is an understanding of our inability to do this apart from the active and passive obedience of Christ. It isn't so much what is said as it is what isn't said.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
Originally posted by Scott
I am not a Warren fan, but this is not typical of evangelicalism. It is a denial of self, cultural fads, inappropriate preoccupation with wealth, etc. I just skimmed it, but it looks like every affirmation would be consistent with reformed ethics and is certainly better than wordly ethics or the ethics of the evangelical world generally. Also, there is nothing wrong with the focus on "I" in terms of someone making a personal declaration. God's sovereignty does not mean that people have not natural liberty. This is just an expanded way of saying "As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord." The psalms of full of "I" statements and self-referential declarations.

I have to agree with Scott here. I think you guys are overreacting. Really, what is objectionable in this statement? I see nothing. I'm not a Warren fan either, but there is nothing wrong with devoting your whole life to God and His glory. It's the attitude we all should have every day. We would obviously qualify and fortify this vow with good theology. But I find it perfectly consistent with our response to God's sovereign grace to us. Just because Warren may get some things wrong doesn't mean he gets everything wrong.
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
It is a fundamental confusion of Law & Gospel here. Are the things that Pastor Warren suggests wicked or according to the values of the world? No. Were the things that the Pharisees were trying to do wicked in and of themselves? No.

The thing that is missing here is an understanding of our inability to do this apart from the active and passive obedience of Christ. It isn't so much what is said as it is what isn't said.
There is no fundamental confusion of the law and gospel. If, as you say, it is what he did not say, then give him the benefit of the doubt. He had no duty to refer to one set of theological truths when explaining a second.
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
This formula, with the underlying assumption that God cannot and will not use one unless, at a point in time after salvation, one "surrenders" to Jesus is classic Keswick - and ubiquitous to modern evangelicalism.

What's wrong with it? If we could do it, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it - it's a paraphrase of the Law, which is holy, just and good, and which I prefer as it is recorded in Scripture. But I still can't keep it, even if I take the whole Class series by Rick Warren, or go to the Keswick Convention, or even sit under the ministry of Sproul or MacArthur.
The pledge is aspirational. It does not say we will succeed. I don't see the Keswick thought in there.
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Scott
Works based righteousness. Our rightousness can only be secured through faith in Christ, not through our obedience.
Can you point to the specific parts of the declaration that suggest works-based righteousness?

Just before the Golden Calf incident:

Exodus 19:8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do."

:um:

Robin
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
The upshot of a very long story....

Scripture has two types of language throughout: Law and Gospel.

Law language always is denoted by man declaring what he will do.

Gospel language is always denoted by God declaring what He does and will do.

Keeping these distinct and clear as they travel through Redemptive history is vital.

r.
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Throwing gasoline on the fire, perhaps....

The Law is written on the hearts of men (as we know)...so there is absolutely NO problem with leaning towards the bent of either idolatry or legalism in efforts to gain merit from God. The human story is always about this struggle/issue.

The Gospel (language) is utterly foreign - outside of the heart of natural man. Even the Christian, to his/her dying day, struggles with hatred towards God (sin)...so we need the Gospel constantly preached to our ears - to meditate on it; cling to it. Etc. (Sin has maimed the imago Dei so seriously.)

As Calvin reminds us, we can never forget our weakness in this regard.

On a more light-hearted note....why do you suppose Horton's book "Too Good to be True" has a cofffee cup with a leak on it?

:book2:

r.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
Originally posted by Robin
Law language always is denoted by man declaring what he will do.

Is that so?

Luke 19
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today." 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, "He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner." 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold." 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

I guess Zak is still under law here?

Perhaps Joshua is being legalistic when he declares "But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15).

:book2:
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Puritan Sailor
Originally posted by Robin
Law language always is denoted by man declaring what he will do.

Is that so?

Luke 19
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today." 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, "He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner." 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold." 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

I guess Zak is still under law here?

Perhaps Joshua is being legalistic when he declares "But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15).

:book2:

An unworthy response...Zak is portraying evidence of a regenerate heart after Christ invites himself to visit him. Note verse 5. (The 3 Forms call it "gratitude".)

A more useful question might be: "did the children of Israel declare their devotion in Exodus 19 in the spirit of gratitude stemming from already regenerate hearts?"

Let's read larger portions of text and keep things in context, please.

:D

r.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
Originally posted by Robin
Originally posted by Puritan Sailor
Originally posted by Robin
Law language always is denoted by man declaring what he will do.

Is that so?

Luke 19
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today." 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, "He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner." 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold." 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

I guess Zak is still under law here?

Perhaps Joshua is being legalistic when he declares "But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15).

:book2:

An unworthy response...Zak is portraying evidence of a regenerate heart after Christ invites himself to visit him. Note verse 5. (The 3 Forms call it "gratitude".)

A more useful question might be: "did the children of Israel declare their devotion in Exodus 19 in the spirit of gratitude stemming from already regenerate hearts?"

Let's read larger portions of text and keep things in context, please.

:D

r.

I am fully aware that Zak's response is gratitude. But you made no mention of gratitude in your pithy little summary of human endeavor above.

Law language always is denoted by man declaring what he will do.

According to your little dichotomy, Zak is using law language. Any response of gratitude is law language according to your post above. It sounds antinomian. That was my point.
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
I don't see anything in Rick Warren's pledge that indicates that people are trying to be justified by the law, or that their obedience is out of anything but gratitude (in fact, it indicates the opposite).

Speaking of the Law, here is a relevant passage from the inspired Moses after the lengthy declaration of the blessings and curses of the covenant in Deut. 28-30:


. . . if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Deut. 30:10b-13.
Moses commands the people to obey all the law. He also says, "what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach."

Moses' instructions were much more detailed than the Warren pledge and yet Moses, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did not have a problem with speaking about the people actually obeying the Law. So, there is biblical precedent for declaring that people can and should obey the law, and should certainly make efforts to do so.

[Edited on 9-21-2006 by Scott]
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Robin
Today I am stepping across the line. I´m tired of waffling and I´m finished with wavering, I´ve made my choice, the verdict is in, and my decision is irrevocable. I´m going God´s way. There´s no turning back now!
Motivation? Self disgust maybe? Frustration? Who knows.


I will live the rest of my life serving God´s purposes with God´s people on God´s planet for God´s glory. I will use my life to celebrate his presence, cultivate his character, participate in his family, demonstrate his love, and communicate his word.
Seems OK, but does not give God much credit or acknowledgment as the power and reason we can do these things.


Since my past has been forgiven, and I have a purpose for living, and a home awaiting in heaven, I refuse to waste any more time or energy on shallow living, petty thinking, trivial talking, thoughtless doing, useless regretting, hurtful resenting, or faithless worrying. Instead I will magnify God, grow to maturity, serve in ministry, and fulfill my mission in the membership of his family.
Still very man driven. It's up to me alone. "I refuse". Not a humble "God lead me not into temptation and delivery me from the evil one". Not a "forgive my sins as I forgive others". Not a "gives us our daily bread". No a submission to God's will for our lives. No a petition to God to serve him for his glory.

Because this life is preparation for the next, I will value worship over wealth, "œwe" over "œme", character over comfort, service over status, and people over possessions, position, and pleasures. I know what matters most and I´ll give it all I´ve got. I´ll do the best I can with what I have for Jesus Christ today.
"I'll give", "I'll do", "I know", "I will". Not "God use me". Not "God give me wisdom and knowledge". Not "God renew my mind and heart so that I may better serve and glorify you and love my neighbor".


I won´t be captivated by culture, manipulated by critics, motivated by praise, frustrated by problems, debilitated by temptation, or intimidated by the devil. I´ll keep running my race with my eyes on the goal, not the sidelines or those running by me. When times get tough, and I get tired, I won´t back up, back off, back down, back out or backslide. I´ll just keep moving forward by God´s grace. I´m Spirit-led, purpose-driven and mission-focused so I cannot be bought, I will not be compromised, and I shall not quit until I finish the race.
Very much like a rah rah motivational speech. It's the concept of pumping your self-esteem with exaggerated positive statements (not necessarily true statements) so that you feel motivated and good about yourself.

This is one of the things to bothers me about this kind of psychology - we tell ourselves things that are not necessarily true in order to psyche ourselves into the kind of emotional state where we feel good and positive. We do it all. We take charge and nothing can stop us!

Is this scriptural? Did Christ give motivation speeches to pump up his followers? Did he say "you can do it!, it's all up to you! You are the captain of your own ship. You decided how far you can sail and where you are gong to go".


I´m a trophy of God´s amazing grace so I will be gracious to everyone, grateful for everyday, and generous with everything that God entrusts to me.

To my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I say: However, Whenever, Wherever, and Whatever you ask me to do, my answer in advance is yes! Wherever you lead and whatever the cost, I´m ready. Anytime. Anywhere. Anyway. Whatever it takes Lord; Whatever it takes! I want to be used by you in such a way, that on that final day I´ll hear you say, "œWell done, thou good and faithful one. Come on in, and let the eternal party begin!"
Here God asks, and the Spirit leads. It's up to us to follow and do what is asked. But does God ask? No, He commands! He doesn't say "this is what I want but it's up to you".

This whole message is about glorying "me". It's about man's autonomy, free will, and ability to determine his own fate. And it is motivated by the reward - not out of humble gratitude.

It is very liberal in ideology. To humble oneself is to be insecure. Instead, we need to build up the self-esteem with positive lies and self praise. It does not submit to God's sovereignty over all things, or our total dependence on God for the ability to do good works and glorify God because that kind of "attitude" does not "motivate" and "energize" a person to go out and win one for the coach!

There's nothing wrong with what it seeks to do - it's wrong in it's view of our relationship to God. The God it presents sits on the sidelines and gives us a list of good deeds. And at the end of the race, he gives you rewards for doing the good deeds. The Holy Spirit is there to lead you with tips and advice. But what gets done is all up to the man and really all to the mans glory because man has determined to do these good deeds. And Christ has no active roll. He's just one of the goals - a target of sorts. He is not our head or brother or reprentitive before God.

See the who things sounds fine if you give it a superfical read through the lenses of modern sensibilties. Postive thinking. Postiive self-esteem. "You can do it baby!" Everyone is a winner! Your OK, I'm OK. Yes, even Jesus is alright with me. He's a cool dude!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top