Public prayer a la 1 Timothy 2:1-2

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BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Jacob, no one can answer that because we cannot predict the future. It is likely if you want individual answers that many would pick their own. However, and AGAIN, the difficulties that would arise do not neglect the biblical requirement (if granted mind you). Regardless of the denomination supported by the magistrate, we the people would be required to submit where conscience allows, pray and work for reform, and rebel against any required sin. I think a few hear have tried to answer your “simple” questions, you just do not accept it as answer and that is OKAY, just reconsider posting the “no body wants to answer comments”. We do and we are trying.

Further, I am hearing no alternative goal proposed by anti-establishmentarians only critiques. Are you proposing the magistrate remains broadly Protestant and only outlaw things like Mormonism and Islam? Or are you proposing we keep & maintain what we have today in the USA (any god any worship)?

Okay, let's pretend for a moment that something like the Covenanters in America are actually united instead of factioned. Would this mean criminalizing non-Covenanter denominations? It's not an academic question. This stuff has happened.

And no, people haven't answered my question beyond the tentative affirmation that Baptists might be prosecuted. Since Covenanter political history has been one long incompetent disaster, these questions must be answered and worked out beforehand.

And some of us have proposed alternatives. I mentioned North's Athanasian pluralism. Others have mentioned Althusius (who believed in natural law). And I have blogged and worked through some of these issues (which is ironic, since I am largely indifferent to the question; I'd much rather study classical theology)
 

Seeking_Thy_Kingdom

Puritan Board Sophomore
Both are cases of an over-realized eschatology, in my opinion.
Jumping into a discussion that is above my pay grade, but this is the question currently wrestle with.

It seems to me plausible that the Covenanters were way ahead of their time, possibly by multiple hundreds to thousands of years. I do think that establishmentarian doctrines lead to a more blessed society in tune with God and His law, because the alternative has only given us chaos and lawlessness like same sex marriage, abortion and Cuties.

I’m short, if (non-dispensationsational) postmillennialism is true, it’s Gods law or chaos.... but is it Biblical?
 
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B.L.

Puritan Board Sophomore
I do think that establishmentarian doctrines lead to a more blessed society in tune with God and His law, because the alternative has only given us chaos and lawlessness like same sex marriage, abortion and Cuties.

Something tells me the faithful remnant in the UK might disagree with you on this point.
 

Poimen

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
There is a difference between obligation and expectation. I am personally obligated to keep the law but my expectation is that I will not on this side of heaven due to my sinful nature. Indeed, outside of Christ, there is no hope but the obligation remains. And note that in Christ there is hope but not an absolute assurance (i.e. every day and every hour without fail), yet the obligation remains.

The same with respect to the magistrate's duty to the church in the land. According to the establishment theory, the magistrate has an obligation to the church, but moreover to God himself, regardless of the difficulties that they are faced with implementing that. Who would dispute that, after all, since they are appointed as "a minister of God" (Romans 13:4) that they owe something to God? And that being true, noting that the church is particularly under God's care, that they owe something to the church as a distinct institution, particularly one that is established by God himself and is the outpost of Christ's kingdom in this world?

However my expectation is that, in the West under the current circumstances, that will not happen due to: 1) the legislative barriers i.e. those laws that require the upholding of the free exercise of religion ii) the lack of will of Christians everywhere i.e. desiring that voluntarism continues for their own comfort and peace of mind & iii) the general rot of culture which upholds both.

For if neither the people in general, the government that represents them, and especially those who call on the name of the LORD desire such a thing, how will it happen? If no one prays for it (prayer being the subject of the post), how will it occur? Yet, according to the theory and my personal conviction of it, the obligation remains.

My only hope (humanly speaking) is to convince others that such a thing is not only desirable but fully warranted from scripture. Now to turn to the stumbling block for some, if not many: how will denominations or various, Christian convictions function under such a scheme? These are important questions but somewhat of a distraction from the main. Many, regardless of how it may affect them, want nothing to do with such established religion. That being the case, how are denominations the difficulty here? Presuming establishment is that good thing that the Lord requires and we should want, the only thing barring it from happening is our will.

As a matter of fact, denominations are a problem but in a different way. Not simply because they exist and might not exist under another government. Do we, for example, lament the divisions in the body of Christ as the Bible does? Do we pray for unity in Christ and that what divides us might actually be resolved in a peaceful and harmonious way? Honestly, I think we support the division because it feeds our own prejudices. And that is a problem and, in fact, a sin.

Pursuing this in order we should see a desire for: 1) ecclesiastical and theological barriers to be resolved 2) a national renewal and lament of public and private sins 3) a government energised to support both & 4) legislative change to enshrine the rule & enforcement of God's moral law and support for the church's activity without interference in its administration of the sacraments, holy orders and church discipline. Since we have barely started with the first (if at all), I do not expect to to see any of the others in my lifetime.

For the church in the West, the future seems to be encroaching governmental interference and, ultimately, direct interference and harassment upon the church, subsequently driving it under ground. If it can survive perhaps it will be able to emerge chastened and convicted. Time will tell. It may happen or it may not. If it does the groundwork will necessarily require many personal and private sacrifices. But one thing I am certain of: the theory is not at fault. It is as sound as heaven itself.

Thus, I remain hopeful. Indeed, the possibility of such is nothing to God. It seemed a thing impossible to remove Baal worship from the land, but it was done. The Jews could never return, it would seem, to their homeland after captivity but it was done. The Gentiles, it would seem, would never come to faith en mass but it has been done. And some day, I trust, though it would seem a thing impossible now, the Jewish people will return to the olive tree. Indeed the burden falls mainly on the LORD to implement it since, he is the primary agent in such passages as Isaiah 49:22-23.
 
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RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
There is a difference between obligation and expectation. I am personally obligated to keep the law but my expectation is that I will not on this side of heaven due to my sinful nature. Indeed, outside of Christ, there is no hope but the obligation remains. And note that in Christ there is hope but not an absolute assurance (i.e. every day and every hour without fail), yet the obligation remains.

The same with respect to the magistrate's duty to the church in the land. According to the establishment theory, the magistrate has an obligation to the church, but moreover to God himself, regardless of the difficulties that they are faced with implementing that. Who would dispute that, after all, since they are appointed as "a minister of God" (Romans 13:4) that they owe something to God? And that being true, noting that the church is particularly under God's care, that they owe something to the church as a distinct institution, particularly one that is established by God himself and is the outpost of Christ's kingdom in this world?

However my expectation is that, in the West under the current circumstances, that will not happen due to: 1) the legislative barriers i.e. those laws that require the upholding of the free exercise of religion ii) the lack of will of Christians everywhere i.e. desiring that voluntarism continues for their own comfort and peace of mind & iii) the general rot of culture which upholds both.

For if neither the people in general, the government that represents them, and especially those who call on the name of the LORD desire such a thing, how will it happen? If no one prays for it (prayer being the subject of the post), how will it occur? Yet, according to the theory and my personal conviction of it, the obligation remains.

My only hope (humanly speaking) is to convince others that a such a thing is not only desirable but fully warranted from scripture. Now to turn to the stumbling block for some, if not many: how will denominations or various, Christian convictions function under such a scheme? These are important questions but somewhat of a distraction from the main. Many, regardless of how it may affect them, want nothing to do with such established religion. That being the case, how are denominations the difficulty here? Presuming establishment is that good thing that the Lord requires and we should want, the only thing barring it from happening is our will.

As a matter of fact, denominations are a problem but in a different way. Not simply because they exist and might not exist under another government. Do we, for example, lament the divisions in the body of Christ as the Bible does? Do we pray for unity in Christ and that what divides us might actually be resolved in a peaceful and harmonious way? Honestly, I think we support the division because it feeds our own prejudices. And that is a problem and, in fact, a sin.

Pursuing this in order we should see a desire for: 1) ecclesiastical and theological barriers to be resolved 2) a national renewal and lament of public and private sins 3) a government energised to support both & 4) legislative change to enshrine the rule & enforcement of God's moral law and support for the church's activity without interference in its administration of the sacraments, holy orders and church discipline. Since we have barely started with the first (if at all), I do not expect to to see any of the others in my lifetime.

For the church in the West, the future seems to be encroaching governmental interference and, ultimately, direct interference and harassment upon the church, subsequently driving it under ground. If it can survive perhaps it will be able to emerge chastened and convicted. Time will tell. It may happen or it may not. If it does the groundwork will necessarily require many personal and private sacrifices. But one thing I am certain of: the theory is not at fault. It is as sound as heaven itself.

Thus, I remain hopeful. Indeed, the possibility of such is nothing to God. It seemed a thing impossible to remove Baal worship from the land, but it was done. The Jews could never return, it would seem, to their homeland after captivity but it was done. The Gentiles, it would seem, would never come to faith en mass but it has been done. And some day, I trust, though it would seem a thing impossible now, the Jewish people will return to the olive tree. Indeed the burden falls mainly on the LORD to implement it since, he is the primary agent in such passages as Isaiah 49:22-23.

Going back to the main purpose of the thread, for such reasons do views favoring the supporting and countenancing the church greatly expand the upper boundaries of your prayers.

Haven’t been on lately for personal business, may respond to some things later.

But seeing the Lords Day is nigh, how about everyone go to the Christology thread in the devotional forum and read or post something? @BayouHuguenot has some good thoughts on Christ’s temptations to consider. And perhaps when we come back we’ll all be a little more malleable.

Baptists welcome, by the way :)
 
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