Public Education, Christian Education and Worldview

[JBaldwin]

Can they? They certainly 'can'. Despite popular Christian opinion, there is no pagan 'Big Brother' looking over the teacher's shoulder every minute of every day. I am not a science teacher but it would seem to me that you would want to deal with contradicting theories on every subject.

While they "can" teach creation in most public schools these days, when a lot of us where going to school, they couldn't, because it was something that came out of the Bible and the Bible was not allowed in the schools. These days, however, and because of public pressure, it is becoming more in vogue to discuss creation. However, it is not always presented accurately or clearly. One example, I took a college biology class in a state school where creation was taught as another theory. It was so poorly presented that no one in their right mind would have accepted it as fact. When I discussed this with the teacher after the class, he admitted that he was teaching creation because he was being pressured by the local Christian college to do so. He also he admitted he had no clue what he was talking about.

For me, however, it is more than just the issue of teaching creation or not. It has to do with the entire outlook on life and the approach to politics, government, history, literature, as well as the science that is usually presented in the public school classroom, and a lot of this does not come into play until the middle and upper level classes. Face it, the majority of the teachers in the public schools are not believers, and at best, they are giving the children what they think is best for them. While it may not be antagonistic to the Christian message, it is not forthe Christian message. Jesus said, He who is not for me is against me.

 

[JBaldwin]

But if we had more Christian teachers in the public schools, this would happen less often.

You're kidding, right? (sad to say, I think you actually believe this)

I had Christian teachers in our school and their hands were tied. Their hands were tied when I was physically abused by other students and teachers. The principal's hands were tied when I was slapped in the face by another teacher because I did not believe homosexuality was caused by the hypothalamus being larger or smaller in said gender and that my faith teaches against it. They simply had to keep their mouths shut. One had to skim over the Jesus part of our history text, then we all had to listen quietly as a girl whose family was a member of the Nation of Islam went on about her faith. The teacher couldn't say anything for fear of being turned in for bias or racism. Our biology teacher skipped over the section on evolution "so we could finish the book in a year and hit the important parts" (she went to my church, loved her, but her hands were tied in all other matters including counsel that I knew she was dying to give and I could've used). We had one teacher that was also a farmer and preacher...the most he could do is ban cursing and do his best to catch anyone kissing in the halls. The last principal we had could only declare that boys keep their pants pulled up, but even that 6 foot plus 3 inch spiked heels, 60 some year old, retired Naval Officer had her hands tied in such matters of morality and what was and wasn't pushed. (Loved her, the principal before her would hit on the teen girls) And if a guy pushed a girl off a chair and called her a foul name...guess who got suspended if the girl socked him? (It was worth the suspension )

The teachers don't just have to fear their peers...they have to fear their students and the families of their students as well. Christian students have to fear both their teachers and their peers.

No thank you. Kudos to all the Christians that choose to work in said atmosphere...but it doesn't mean I need to send my CHILD into it.

Thanks, though this does not to be the case in all the schools in our area, these are the kinds of reports are very common in some schools. I met a Christian teacher who taught at our local high school who said she hid in the teacher's lounge between classes for fear of the high school boys who would not keep their hands off her.

 

[BJClark]

I guess I am very blest, we as parents still have a say in what is being taught, and it's possible other areas are the same way...but when they are looking to bring new textbooks to the school system parents are given the opportunity to go and look through them and give their input on the content.

But I voted other, because even though my kids are in school for 6 hours a day, they are with me the rest of the time, that's 10 hours a day plus weekends I have with them to teach them my values and the Biblical World view, if a parent doesn't take the time to teach them then can we really blame the school system and teachers for teaching them something contrary to what they say they believe?

I have taught my kids to think for themselves, and to question things they are taught, to hold it up to scripture and see if it lines up, as that is my responsibility as a parent to do that, not a teachers.

My oldest daughter said that when students asked her teachers what they believed they teachers responded "it wasn't their place to share their own personal views" so they never knew what her teachers actually believed.

My youngest daughter has some teachers who do share their beliefs, one of her teachers (history) believes in reincarnation, to which the students think she is crazy, thinking she might come back as a butterfly, or someone else after she dies..but she also allowed the students to share what they believe and why. While she also has other teachers who ask students to pray for them.

Many of the science teachers when presenting Darwins theory of evolution say "some scientist believe" then discuss it breifly but don't focus on it and quickly move to something else...such as learning about DNA and chromosomes and how a person is designed by their DNA.

So it also depends on the parents and what they teach their kids at home during the many hours they have with them, if they neglect their duties, then certainly the kids can be influenced moreso by what teachers teach from textbooks..

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I think if we put the blame entirely on "Public" education then we really take the onus away from the Parents who are ultimately responsible for their own children's worldview.

 

[KMK]

I am not sure how people can argue that having more Christian teachers, principals, administrators and staff would not change public schools for the better. No doubt, these people are correct and I am missing something.

For clarity, let me state once again that I homeschool my children. I regret that Christians in this country ever allowed the state to take over the education of its youth. I would be first in line to vote for the abolishment of state funded mandatory education. (And I am an emplyee!)

I think, at this point, it might be more realistic to change it than to do away with it.

 

[JBaldwin]

I think if we put the blame entirely on "Public" education then we really take the onus away from the Parents who are ultimately responsible for their own children's worldview.

I hope that you can tell from my posts that I do not believe that the entire blame is on public education. But when I started this post, I was curious to know how many people felt that left if parents just "dumped" their children in the public education system and let the schools take charge, would their children be influenced and how much?

I, too, agree that parents are responsible to God for the education of their children which is why I will not subject my children to public education, especially as it stands in my community, and that is for two reasons 1. I know what my children will most likely hear in P.S. 2. I don't have the energy or time to try to undo any damage that might be done. I would rather teach them myself and worry about undoing all the damage done via the neighbor children, the media, and any other influences they might be exposed to.

I have a friend who spends 2-3 hours every school night one-on-one with her daughter teaching her all the things she should have learned in public school that day and testing her on all the things she has heard all day. I am not that energetic.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I would agree 100% with all you just said JB.

 

[Mushroom]

You say:

I am not sure how people can argue that having more Christian teachers, principals, administrators and staff would not change public schools for the better. No doubt, these people are correct and I am missing something.

But first you have to establish that the gov't should be in the business of educating our children. By participating in that system, Christians are perpetuating it. But then you say:

For clarity, let me state once again that I homeschool my children. I regret that Christians in this country ever allowed the state to take over the education of its youth. I would be first in line to vote for the abolishment of state funded mandatory education. (And I am an emplyee!)

So you agree that the gov't should not be educating children? So why would Christians want to be a partner with the gov't in doing what you agree it should not be doing? Because they pay well and have good benefits or what? You said earlier that the Church should take back the public schools. Why? They were never the Church's to begin with. If all those Christian teachers and administrators would forego the extra monetary benefits and leave the PS and go to work in CS, would that not be preferable? Wouldn't it also be preferable for the gov't to get out of the education biz, stop taxing me to death, and let me spend that money on a real education for my kids instead?

But you say you work for a gov't school, and homeschool your kids? How is that coherent? It's fine to teach pagan kids in that setting but not your own? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

You talk about surreptitious ways Christian teachers can speak the truth rather than the lies propagated by gov't schools, but the fact is that it is illegal to do so except within very limited parameters. Is this not encouraging Christians to break the law? You could say that an immoral law is not required to be obeyed, but can it be obeyed without committing sin? Yes. By not participating in it at all. So there is no valid reason for a Christian to break that law, and therefore is it not sin to do so?

 

[KMK]

You say:

I am not sure how people can argue that having more Christian teachers, principals, administrators and staff would not change public schools for the better. No doubt, these people are correct and I am missing something.

But first you have to establish that the gov't should be in the business of educating our children. By participating in that system, Christians are perpetuating it. But then you say:

Could you explain how participating is the same as perpetuating?

For clarity, let me state once again that I homeschool my children. I regret that Christians in this country ever allowed the state to take over the education of its youth. I would be first in line to vote for the abolishment of state funded mandatory education. (And I am an emplyee!)

So you agree that the gov't should not be educating children? So why would Christians want to be a partner with the gov't in doing what you agree it should not be doing? Because they pay well and have good benefits or what? You said earlier that the Church should take back the public schools. Why? They were never the Church's to begin with. If all those Christian teachers and administrators would forego the extra monetary benefits and leave the PS and go to work in CS, would that not be preferable? Wouldn't it also be preferable for the gov't to get out of the education biz, stop taxing me to death, and let me spend that money on a real education for my kids instead?

The Christians never should have allowed mandatory public education. If we are going to continue to allow the state to mandate public education, then I think we should try to influence it for the better. I am perhaps too naive, but it seems that Christians have three choices: Get rid of mandatory public education; change mandatory public education; or just allow the state to dictate the future of our country.

BTW, if you are going to rebuke me for sin, please don't do so with innuendo. If you think I am in sin, brother, give me something I can work with.

But you say you work for a gov't school, and homeschool your kids? How is that coherent? It's fine to teach pagan kids in that setting but not your own? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

So you believe that my students in the public schools are 'pagans'? That's quite a judgment you just made since I doubt you know any of them.

You talk about surreptitious ways Christian teachers can speak the truth rather than the lies propagated by gov't schools, but the fact is that it is illegal to do so except within very limited parameters. Is this not encouraging Christians to break the law? You could say that an immoral law is not required to be obeyed, but can it be obeyed without committing sin? Yes. By not participating in it at all. So there is no valid reason for a Christian to break that law, and therefore is it not sin to do so?

I never said anything about being 'surreptitious'. And what 'laws' are you referring to? I have never in this thread encouraged a teacher to break the law. Once again, if you are going to accuse me of sin, please give something concrete I can repent of.

 

[Mushroom]

Could you explain how participating is the same as perpetuating?

That can't be a serious question. How is participating in anything not perpetuating that thing?

The Christians never should have allowed mandatory public education. If we are going to continue to allow the state to mandate public education, then I think we should try to influence it for the better.

You agree that mandatory public education is wrong. You probably believe, rightly, that p0rnography is wrong. Should Christians participate in p0rnography so as to "influence it for the better"? The reasoning seems a little confusing.

I am perhaps too naive, but it seems that Christians have three choices: Get rid of mandatory public education; change mandatory public education; or just allow the state to dictate the future of our country.

If mandatory public education is wrong, why would we want to change it? A pig in a prettier dress is still a pig. Seems the logical thing to do is get rid of it, not dance with it.

BTW, if you are going to rebuke me for sin, please don't do so with innuendo. If you think I am in sin, brother, give me something I can work with.

How have I rebuked you for sin, brother? I have pointed out plainly the incongruency of agreeing a thing is wrong to even exist and yet participating in it.

So you believe that my students in the public schools are 'pagans'? That's quite a judgment you just made since I doubt you know any of them.

Oh, yes, I believe that the vast majority of them are, but I derive that from personal experience, so I digress, and will reword my statement thus; It's fine to teach other people's kids in that setting but not your own?

I never said anything about being 'surreptitious'.

Really? How 'bout this:

It has been my experience, I am sure it is not the case with your many friends, that teachers are allowed to teach a Christian worldview as long as they are not ornery about it. The public school is made out to be this three headed monster that will gobble up any teacher who refuses to teach same sex marraige. But in actuality it is a giant slug with no teeth. No one cares what you teach those kids as long as the parents don't complain and your test scores don't get lower.

Especially in light of this:

From The US Dept of Education - Teachers and school administrators, when acting in those capacities, are representatives of the state, and, in those capacities, are themselves prohibited from encouraging or soliciting student religious or anti-religious activity.

 

[KMK]

Could you explain how participating is the same as perpetuating?

That can't be a serious question. How is participating in anything not perpetuating that thing?

Was Daniel guilty of sin because he 'perpetuated' Babylonian rule over his people by 'participating' in the Babylonian government?

The Christians never should have allowed mandatory public education. If we are going to continue to allow the state to mandate public education, then I think we should try to influence it for the better.

You agree that mandatory public education is wrong. You probably believe, rightly, that p0rnography is wrong. Should Christians participate in p0rnography so as to "influence it for the better"? The reasoning seems a little confusing.

We live in a confusing world. Everything is not always so black and white as you imply. I understand your 'groaning' for the full redemption of God's creation, but we are in the world not of it. It would be impossible to have any job at all if you refused to work for something that is not the biblical ideal.

If mandatory public education is wrong, why would we want to change it? A pig in a prettier dress is still a pig. Seems the logical thing to do is get rid of it, not dance with it.

If you want to get rid of it then do so. While I am waiting for that I will try to make the best of a bad situation.

How have I rebuked you for sin, brother?

You said..."So why would Christians want to be a partner with the gov't in doing what you agree it should not be doing? Because they pay well and have good benefits or what?"

From the sound of those words you are condemning all Christian teachers of making a living through "filthy lucre".

I have pointed out plainly the incongruency of agreeing a thing is wrong to even exist and yet participating in it.

I agree that it might be 'incongruous', but I shy from calling it a sin. Once again, some might say it is 'incongruous' that I pay my property taxes even though I do not believe the state has the biblical right to tax what the Lord has given me. It might have been 'incongrous' for Jesus to get money out of a fish's mouth to pay a tax, but He did it anyway. We live in an 'incongruous' world.

Here in LA there was an interesting news story recently. A homeowner was told that some trees on his property were in violation of some code so he cut them down. Then he was told that those trees that he cut down were of a special variety and it was against code to cut them down. He was fined! It is definitely an imperfect world.

Oh, yes, I believe that the vast majority of them are, but I derive that from personal experience, so I digress, and will reword my statement thus; It's fine to teach other people's kids in that setting but not your own?

I can't argue with someone who claims they know who is elect and who is not.

It has been my experience, I am sure it is not the case with your many friends, that teachers are allowed to teach a Christian worldview as long as they are not ornery about it. The public school is made out to be this three headed monster that will gobble up any teacher who refuses to teach same sex marraige. But in actuality it is a giant slug with no teeth. No one cares what you teach those kids as long as the parents don't complain and your test scores don't get lower.

Especially in light of this:

From The US Dept of Education - Teachers and school administrators, when acting in those capacities, are representatives of the state, and, in those capacities, are themselves prohibited from encouraging or soliciting student religious or anti-religious activity.

Let me clarify again...If you are a Christian teacher and your conscience tells you that it would be a sin to teach truth in public school, then definitely do not go into public education.

But, what you have quoted is education code, not law. A public school teacher who teaches Islam, for example, to his students is not guilty of a crime. And, I never said anything about 'encouraging' or 'soliciting' students, but simply teaching the truth.