Proverbs 31 Woman
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Guido's Brother
Puritan Board Junior
Andrew,
I've only preached on the end (focusing on verse 30), though my sermon does touch on the whole chapter from verse 10 on. Anyway, if you're interested, my sermon is online here.
Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
Thanks Wes.
Maybe I should also give clarification as to what I have heard. Many believe (based on verse 1) this isn't for a woman directly but for a young man seeking a wife. Others focus entirely on the woman. Others say this is the godly woman (Ideal) but not realistic, it is what women ought to aim for and yet won't reach in this life. Things of this nature I have heard and am wondering again the perspective or approach to the passage.
Maybe I should also give clarification as to what I have heard. Many believe (based on verse 1) this isn't for a woman directly but for a young man seeking a wife. Others focus entirely on the woman. Others say this is the godly woman (Ideal) but not realistic, it is what women ought to aim for and yet won't reach in this life. Things of this nature I have heard and am wondering again the perspective or approach to the passage.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
Have you read Bridge's Commentary on Proverbs?
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
It's a poem. So it's always helpful to use a concrete illustration to explain the poetic ideals. Ruth is the only woman in the Bible called "woman of noble character" (Ruth 3:11, Prov 31:10, 12:4). I would explain the ideals of the poem (also pointing out how it was written by a mother teaching her son what to look for in a woman, Prov 31:1) and then conclude the exposition with the real life illustration of Ruth. She loves God, she's hardworking, and she cares for her family. That will help put the high principles of Prov 31 into real life perspective.
Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
Yes, just looking at what various people think and why.
THanks Patrick. Good explanation.
Guido's Brother
Puritan Board Junior
It's a poem. So it's always helpful to use a concrete illustration to explain the poetic ideals. Ruth is the only woman in the Bible called "woman of noble character" (Ruth 3:11, Prov 31:10, 12:4). I would explain the ideals of the poem (also pointing out how it was written by a mother teaching her son what to look for in a woman, Prov 31:1) and then conclude the exposition with the real life illustration of Ruth. She loves God, she's hardworking, and she cares for her family. That will help put the high principles of Prov 31 into real life perspective.
That's a good point and it's strengthened by the fact that in the Hebrew OT, Ruth follows right after Proverbs.
awretchsavedbygrace
Puritan Board Sophomore
If she does exist and is single. Tell her I exist as well.
awretchsavedbygrace
Puritan Board Sophomore
Sorry brother, I already took her
If she has a sister, tell her I exist.
Berean
Puritanboard Commissioner
She's an Inactive member here on the PB. http://www.puritanboard.com/members/proverbs31woman/
awretchsavedbygrace
Puritan Board Sophomore
She has no pictures.
ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
neither does chapter 31 of Proverbs.
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
I think we might easily make the mistake of taking it to be a list that defines what a godly woman should be. But transfering it to our cultural context becomes a problem then. And besides, it isn't intended to be a checklist by which we evaluate women.
I'd say it's mostly a poem to help us men appreciate and love our wives who are, in nearly every instance, more noble and industrious than we are.
I'd say it's mostly a poem to help us men appreciate and love our wives who are, in nearly every instance, more noble and industrious than we are.
ubermadchen
Puritanboard <strong>Outlaw</strong>
I've always thought of it as a checklist; I've never been told otherwise. How could it not be?
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
If its a checklist, I'm doomed.
a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
Kathleen, I'm torn because I want to thank you for that useful post, but I don't want to seem to be agreeing with you too strongly
I was wondering how this relates to the fact that Lemuel is in a different position than the 'common' man -- as cited in another thread where Joshua quoted Matthew Henry -- and is called to ideals that reflect a more exalted position: his wife would then be something of an 'ideal' woman as well (her handmaids are in a different position than she is). So then it would be a picture of a woman who could appropriately fill an ennobled place in life? And we learn from it about ideals of feminine virtue, as we would from watching godly women in various circumstances here (at least I learn a great deal from godly women, just watching them -- actually much more than from practical books on how to be a godly woman, which run more along 'checklist' lines).
I was wondering how this relates to the fact that Lemuel is in a different position than the 'common' man -- as cited in another thread where Joshua quoted Matthew Henry -- and is called to ideals that reflect a more exalted position: his wife would then be something of an 'ideal' woman as well (her handmaids are in a different position than she is). So then it would be a picture of a woman who could appropriately fill an ennobled place in life? And we learn from it about ideals of feminine virtue, as we would from watching godly women in various circumstances here (at least I learn a great deal from godly women, just watching them -- actually much more than from practical books on how to be a godly woman, which run more along 'checklist' lines).
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
Kathleen, I'm torn because I want to thank you for that useful post, but I don't want to seem to be agreeing with you too strongly
Ha Ha! Feel free to agree - I said it first.
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
I think I tend to read it as wisdom for men because (1) I'm a man and (2) the opening and closing thoughts of the passage both come from the man's prespective: "An excellent wife who can find?" and "Give her the fruit of her hands." Of course, there's still much here for women. And from my admittedly limited viewpoint I think I can see why women would be encouraged and challenged by this passage.
But a checklist? I think that creates a gotta-measure-up burden that isn't intended here. If we read Proverbs as hard and fast rules to live by we'll go crazy with conflicting instructions and "rules" that simply don't apply in every case. These are mostly proverbs, meaning they're godly wisdom to consider and apply with discretion. When I think "checklist," I imagine something more rigid.
This does not mean Proverbs is unimportant. The exercise of godly wisdom is commanded, and is one of our great joys and privileges. But if we go through the list evaluating how a woman (oneself or another) measures up, we turn a beautiful passage that's mostly about celebrating great women into one that feels about as poetic as a school report card.
Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
Isn't that like the whole law of God, none of us can keep it ourselves, we are all doomed. Thank the Lord for Christ.
Susanna
Puritan Board Freshman
I didn't realize the Hebrew Bible was in a different order. It's interesting that Ruth comes after Proverbs but ... why do YOU think it's significant enough to bring up here ... I just thought it was interesting as in "new info.", "I didn't know that" ... are you thinking it's meaningful to understanding proverbs differently?
Would knowing the order of any other books in the Hebrew OT shed some light on something I might not know about God just from what I had with my regular Bible?
Would knowing the order of any other books in the Hebrew OT shed some light on something I might not know about God just from what I had with my regular Bible?
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
Certainly.
However, I don't think that Proverbs 31 is meant to be a "law." Do you? I certainly don't think all women are commanded to be entrepreneurs, for example. (Alhthough its a praiseworthy trait). I view the passage more in the way Jack has described.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
It helps in understanding how to read Ruth, which has often baffled scholars. When read as a historic narrative, it's hard to find the theological point. But when read as a wisdom book, and as an illustration of what a "woman of noble character" actually looks like, then it clears some things up. The Proverbs 31 "woman of noble character" poem is written in an acrostic (each phrase beginning with a letter from the Hebrew alphabet) to be easily remembered. Its filled with poetic imagery, which, if left without some concrete examples could lead to depression both for men who can't find this ideal woman or for women who can't live up to it. Ruth following immediately after Proverbs 31 would teach young men and women how those ideals would work themselves out in real life. Ruth loves the Lord, is industrious and hardworking, and does what she can to care for and promote the well-being of her family. In human terms her humble religious peasant life may not look like much, but in God's eyes (and Boaz's) she is a "woman of noble character." And since most of the Israelites were peasants in that day, this story would have been very encouraging and instructive.
a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
Patrick, there's so much patience and hope in Ruth, as she clings wholeheartedly while others turn away in hard times, to the true God and His people, and is submissive and diligent -- and then redemption for the sake of love, and even becoming part of the great redemption in the lineage of Christ. I don't understand why theology is missing in the book with all of that, but it is really wonderful to think of it in the way you brought out; and I will try to do so more, and to think of her with regard to Proverbs 31 as well. Thank you.
Hebrew Student
Puritan Board Freshman
Romans922,
I would say that you have to approach this text in the context of the rest of the book of Proverbs. The literary connections between Proverbs 31 and, for example, lady wisdom in the early chapters of Proverbs must be taken into account. Hence, you have connections between the qualities of the excellent wife, and the qualities of lady wisdom.
Thus, I do not believe that Proverbs 31 is a checklist. I would say, rather, that Proverbs 31 is the epitome of the connection between the statements in Proverbs 8:35 and 18:22. The point is that, in order for a woman to be a noble and excellent wife, she must learn the ways of wisdom. The more like lady wisdom that she is, the more she will bring honor to her husband. The more like lady folly she is, the more she will bring him down, just like lady folly does. The message is for women to learn the ways of wisdom, and to live them our, and for a man to be looking for a wife who lives out the ways of wisdom.
God Bless,
Adam
I would say that you have to approach this text in the context of the rest of the book of Proverbs. The literary connections between Proverbs 31 and, for example, lady wisdom in the early chapters of Proverbs must be taken into account. Hence, you have connections between the qualities of the excellent wife, and the qualities of lady wisdom.
Thus, I do not believe that Proverbs 31 is a checklist. I would say, rather, that Proverbs 31 is the epitome of the connection between the statements in Proverbs 8:35 and 18:22. The point is that, in order for a woman to be a noble and excellent wife, she must learn the ways of wisdom. The more like lady wisdom that she is, the more she will bring honor to her husband. The more like lady folly she is, the more she will bring him down, just like lady folly does. The message is for women to learn the ways of wisdom, and to live them our, and for a man to be looking for a wife who lives out the ways of wisdom.
God Bless,
Adam
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