Presumptive regeneration more...

Status
Not open for further replies.
VV,
Please exegete the passage I present. What exactly is being implied by Christ? Does Christ bless and lay hands on all children? Is there some Jewishness to what He is saying and doing?

Humor me.....
 
Matt 19:13-14 He was using the children to illustrate that the nature of one in the kingdom is that of a child see matt 18:3-6 Luke 18:16-17. That is to be humble and walk by faith because God rejects a prideful spirit Hab 2:3-4. I know that it says that he blessed them but that to me does not mean they are the Cov. of Grace. I would say every Jew and Gentile who incounted Jesus in his earthly ministry (that is the ones he ministed to) received a blessing.

Also notice Matt 18:10;14 This to me is a reference to believers described as children, unless we are to say the kids have guardian angels and that God wants all people to be saved.

Again Matt 10:42 matt 25:40 is a reference to believers. To be a child in those days was be considered a nobody in society, I think this what is going on in matt 19:13-14

Maybe I have used the expected normal argument here but the must be a reason why the argument is normal, may it because it's good argument, perhaps.

But it will be interesting to read your response, I really want to undestand this issue.

Thanks VanVos
 
Jonathan,
I am in no position at the present to respond rightfully because I am slightly overwhelmed with work and family. At this point I can simply say that the idea is rooted in covenant theology. This concept and process may not be "simple" to you; I don't really know the depth of your understanding in this regard. Here's what I am saying, from the moutain top of CT, seeing the words of Christ in this passage, clearly points to an attitude that is Jewish and salvific.

I will try and go into more details as soon as I can.

[Edited on 5-27-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Thanks

Thanks for the reply, but please take your time in responding I'm sure your busy. I think I understand what you mean, it's Jewish salvific language . It's argued that Matt 19:13-14 is covenantal langauge as it was with the stories in Genesis e.g. Gen 27:23 Gen 17:20. I would see this as true for the old coveant order, but not in the new (or renewed, if you will). After the completed work of Christ the need of blessing people in this way ceased since now the blessing are only in Him.

2Cr 1:20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

2Cr 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


But I'm sure I'll need to explain myself a bit more here too.

VanVos
 
???

VanVos,

Where does the Old Covenant begin and where does the New Covenant begin in redemptive history?
 
Old covenant was published at Sinai but it existed back Genesis e.g. Noah knowing the difference between the clean and unclean animals, the line of seth been called Sons of God etc etc. The Old Covenant is everything Christ fulfilled. By the way I'm not a Dispensationalist nor a NCT, and I see the moral as binding upon the conscience of all men at all times.

I'll expound more if you like.
 
"It's argued that Matt 19:13-14 is covenantal langauge as it was with the stories in Genesis e.g. Gen 27:23 Gen 17:20. I would see this as true for the old coveant order, but not in the new (or renewed, if you will). After the completed work of Christ the need of blessing people in this way ceased since now the blessing are only in Him."

VanVos,

I was wondering about this statement here. What do you mean the blessing is only in Him? I say this because obviously Christ is giving the children blessings like Abraham gave his son an inheritance of blessings. Christ is giving the children a heavenly inheritance while the Abrahamic blessings pointed to the promise and was intertwined with that promise.

While Christ's blessings are eternal and ours all of our blessings that aren't Christ's are temporal, we do have blessings to give to our children as an inheritance. We have lineage, culture, and property etc to give to our posterity.
 
Blessings came upon the Abrahamic Line inorder to make the way for Christ. In others words it served redemptive purpose but now that Christ those come those type of blessings cease. Also I'm persuaded of the particular grace position so the is only true blessings found in Christ. I would not be a quick to call those things you listed blessings. Although they can be in the temporal sense like you said.

VanVos

[Edited on 5-27-2004 by VanVos]

[Edited on 5-27-2004 by VanVos]
 
They certainly are temporal blessings, but our children are also blessed in us. We sinned in adam, and his sin was imputed. We fulfill the law in Christ, because his righteousness is imputed. The sense of covenant and headship continues right into the new testament because the blessing is for the believer and his children and to all who are called.
 
VV - there is a very BIG mistake that is often made today about the early fathers and the idea surrounding baptismal regeneration. If the fathers qualify what they mean when they use the term (which is not what most think today in many cases) then there is something else to be understood. A VERY good source to answer your question about PR and the early fathers is William Wall's work on infant baptism deal with ALL the quotes of the early fathers and what they meant. You would be surprised that our "definition" of regeneration has evolved quite different from the use of Augustine. Even up to the time f Calvin it was used in the same manner as PR. :judge:
 
Thanks I knew that I would get a good answer, that why I come to you guys. I't nice to talk people who can back up what they believe. I will look into those sources. Also, are actually saying that the are pre-calvin church fathers quoted to believe in what is now known as PR?

God bless VanVos

[Edited on 5-28-2004 by VanVos]

[Edited on 5-28-2004 by VanVos]

[Edited on 5-28-2004 by VanVos]
 
[quote:3ca0028f4b][i:3ca0028f4b]Originally posted by VanVos[/i:3ca0028f4b]
Thanks I knew that I would get a good answer, that why I come to guys. I't nice to talk people who can back up what they believe. I will look into those sources. Also, are actually saying that the are church father quoted to believe in what is now known PR?

God bless VanVos

[Edited on 5-28-2004 by VanVos] [/quote:3ca0028f4b]

Absolutely!
 
I am not familiar with William Wall's book.
Can someone give me an exact title so I can obtain it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top