mccaffertyb7
Puritan Board Freshman
What are your thoughts on praying imprecatory Psalms against the President of the United States? Disrespectful, sinful, appropriate, wise?
Praying Imprecatory Psalms
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jeclark71
Puritan Board Freshman
I tend to hold to John Piper view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA7B9Qk9Tbo
I strongly suspect that most of the folks loudly (praying in the marketplace and on the street corners to be seen by men) calling for imprecatory prayers against this man or that, this group or cause or the other, are in real danger of getting for themselves according to the same measure they mete.
That's not to say that there aren't times when such prayers are suitable. All requests for Justice, are in some degree, imprecatory. Perhaps we are wiser to be non-person-specific in ordinary cases.
When you have been to the extremity--really taken there--by bona fide, self declared enemies of Christ and his church, and your Spirit-driven prayers for their salvation have been exhausted, and no other sentiment comes welling up from the deepest recesses of your heart--if you remain convinced that in terms of Justice, you are safe where wrath has already been utterly spent (in Jesus' atoning death of his cross)--then maybe all that's left is for the Spirit to summon holy indignation by means of your prayers for it.
Imprecations are prayers given from heaven by and for the church in her utmost suffering. They ought not be prayed without the readiness of Samson to be swept away bodily in the conflagration being summoned (which is why we generally refer such prayer to the final Judgment). And I think that even as they are wrenched from the heart of the believer (with some reluctance), they may still be accompanied by some droplets of mercy's tears for the last-moment deliverance of an enemy.
That's not to say that there aren't times when such prayers are suitable. All requests for Justice, are in some degree, imprecatory. Perhaps we are wiser to be non-person-specific in ordinary cases.
When you have been to the extremity--really taken there--by bona fide, self declared enemies of Christ and his church, and your Spirit-driven prayers for their salvation have been exhausted, and no other sentiment comes welling up from the deepest recesses of your heart--if you remain convinced that in terms of Justice, you are safe where wrath has already been utterly spent (in Jesus' atoning death of his cross)--then maybe all that's left is for the Spirit to summon holy indignation by means of your prayers for it.
Imprecations are prayers given from heaven by and for the church in her utmost suffering. They ought not be prayed without the readiness of Samson to be swept away bodily in the conflagration being summoned (which is why we generally refer such prayer to the final Judgment). And I think that even as they are wrenched from the heart of the believer (with some reluctance), they may still be accompanied by some droplets of mercy's tears for the last-moment deliverance of an enemy.
Hemustincrease
Puritan Board Freshman
James E Adams wrote an excellent book on this subject. ‘War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms’
I highly recommend it. In chapter 5 he says this:
“Never, never may God’s people pray so out of a spirit of personal vengeance against their own enemies. Do we need to be reminded again of our Commander’s orders to love even our enemies? Without assistance how can we ever righteously pray this prayer (for enemies to be destroyed)? I answer unequivocally: We never can! We cannot pray this prayer on our own.............not because we are too good, but rather because we are too prone to evil! Yet, we must learn how to pray it. How?”
He then goes on to explain the ‘how’ in a very helpful chapter.
Well worth reading the entire book.
I highly recommend it. In chapter 5 he says this:
“Never, never may God’s people pray so out of a spirit of personal vengeance against their own enemies. Do we need to be reminded again of our Commander’s orders to love even our enemies? Without assistance how can we ever righteously pray this prayer (for enemies to be destroyed)? I answer unequivocally: We never can! We cannot pray this prayer on our own.............not because we are too good, but rather because we are too prone to evil! Yet, we must learn how to pray it. How?”
He then goes on to explain the ‘how’ in a very helpful chapter.
Well worth reading the entire book.
whirlingmerc
Puritan Board Sophomore
The New Testament heavily quotes imprecatory Psalms and I think Piper's sermon on Thinking and Felling with the Psalms, particularly regarding the imprecatory Ps 69 speaks to the issue very well. see Pour Out Your Indignation Upon Them | Desiring God
My opinion. Unrepentant sin will be judged by God and that's how Romans quotes imprecatory Psalms. We have the models of Jesus (and Stephen) praying for mercy on those who were killing them as they died, our role is to bless not curse, speaking the truth in love. Father forgive them, they know not what they do.
My opinion. Unrepentant sin will be judged by God and that's how Romans quotes imprecatory Psalms. We have the models of Jesus (and Stephen) praying for mercy on those who were killing them as they died, our role is to bless not curse, speaking the truth in love. Father forgive them, they know not what they do.
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Cymro
Puritan Board Junior
It has been rightly observed that imprecatory is a misnomer, and should be replaced
with the justice psalms. These are not personal desires of the singer against persons,
but the uplifting of prayer against wickedness and the need for righteous retribution.
But what is to be borne in mind that these words are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and reflect
the mind of Christ. For He is the sweet psalmist of Israel, and He it is that calls for divine
response against the enmity of the the wicked against The Lord and His anointed, and the
Church.
with the justice psalms. These are not personal desires of the singer against persons,
but the uplifting of prayer against wickedness and the need for righteous retribution.
But what is to be borne in mind that these words are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and reflect
the mind of Christ. For He is the sweet psalmist of Israel, and He it is that calls for divine
response against the enmity of the the wicked against The Lord and His anointed, and the
Church.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Yeah, this thread just got flagged by the NSA
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Israel was a nation and as such had national enemies. She prayed, understandably enough, for the destruction of her national enemies. This is the central part of the prayers of imprecation.
The church of the new covenant is no longer a nation (an ethno-political, geographically located and identified entity). Rather the church is found among all nations and is that body of believers and their children who profess the true religion.
No part of the Bible is inappropriate for us as Christians as the whole Bible is the Word of God. However, everything in the OT, which pointed forward to our time, is now understood and interpreted in fulfillment. So when we as Christians pray the prayers of imprecation we do not pray for the destruction of the church's national enemies for, as noted above, we have none. We certainly have enemies of the cross and of our Lord, but they are not political enemies, because the church has no national and political identity.
When we pray imprecatory prayers with respect to the enemies of the cross, we pray that, as happened with us, they are destroyed as enemies and reconstituted as friends. In other words, to pray imprecatorily for the world is to pray that the world would be converted, ceasing its hostilities against the truth, repent, and become children of God, as we have become. As to ourselves, the imprecatory psalms serve as a prayer for our sanctification as we pray for the destruction of the devil and the flesh.
Paul tells us how we are to pray for rulers, in fact, for "all people," praying that we may lead peaceful and quiet lives. We ought to pray in this way because "this is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:1-4). One might say that the OT prayers of imprecation are taken up and transformed in this way in the NT and this is how we are to pray for all those about us, including our leaders. We do not pray for personal and national destruction any longer but for the salvation of the nations. We "Honor everyone," including "the emperor" (I Peter 2:17).
I am not suggesting that the President is equivalent to the emperor or king (supreme earthly ruler). But he clearly is a ruler, along with others, whom we should honor and for whom we should pray. We should pray in the way that Paul and Peter instruct us to pray for our rulers (and for all). In so praying, we take up everything that the imprecations of the OT ultimately signified, the salvation of the nations through the person and work of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18-20).
Peace,
Alan
The church of the new covenant is no longer a nation (an ethno-political, geographically located and identified entity). Rather the church is found among all nations and is that body of believers and their children who profess the true religion.
No part of the Bible is inappropriate for us as Christians as the whole Bible is the Word of God. However, everything in the OT, which pointed forward to our time, is now understood and interpreted in fulfillment. So when we as Christians pray the prayers of imprecation we do not pray for the destruction of the church's national enemies for, as noted above, we have none. We certainly have enemies of the cross and of our Lord, but they are not political enemies, because the church has no national and political identity.
When we pray imprecatory prayers with respect to the enemies of the cross, we pray that, as happened with us, they are destroyed as enemies and reconstituted as friends. In other words, to pray imprecatorily for the world is to pray that the world would be converted, ceasing its hostilities against the truth, repent, and become children of God, as we have become. As to ourselves, the imprecatory psalms serve as a prayer for our sanctification as we pray for the destruction of the devil and the flesh.
Paul tells us how we are to pray for rulers, in fact, for "all people," praying that we may lead peaceful and quiet lives. We ought to pray in this way because "this is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:1-4). One might say that the OT prayers of imprecation are taken up and transformed in this way in the NT and this is how we are to pray for all those about us, including our leaders. We do not pray for personal and national destruction any longer but for the salvation of the nations. We "Honor everyone," including "the emperor" (I Peter 2:17).
I am not suggesting that the President is equivalent to the emperor or king (supreme earthly ruler). But he clearly is a ruler, along with others, whom we should honor and for whom we should pray. We should pray in the way that Paul and Peter instruct us to pray for our rulers (and for all). In so praying, we take up everything that the imprecations of the OT ultimately signified, the salvation of the nations through the person and work of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18-20).
Peace,
Alan
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Perhaps I should make it clear that in praying in accordance with I Timothy 2: 1-4, we may offer supplications and intercessions to restrain evil and that our leaders would be constrained to do so (as part of our living peaceful and quiet lives). I do not mean at all to suggest in #8 above that our prayers are toothless and harmless. Not at all. But we are ultimately praying for the salvation of all concerned, as we are directed to pray in this passage. Part of those prayers would be relief from persecution and suffering and for the establishment of the truth and the casting down of falsehood. But, again, in the OT what was in view was only the destruction of the enemy and not the salvation that befits the day in which we live in which the gosepl goes forth conquering and to conquer.
Peace,
Alan
Peace,
Alan
whirlingmerc
Puritan Board Sophomore
Psalm 141:6 "When their judges are thrown over the cliff, then they shall hear my words, for they are pleasant."
Perhaps like the wicked judges, there are obstacles for people to hear the gospel, but it's in God hands to move the right boulders and to know what they are, not in my hands to do that. God is the bull dozer. I'm just a seed sower, plant waterer here.
Perhaps like the wicked judges, there are obstacles for people to hear the gospel, but it's in God hands to move the right boulders and to know what they are, not in my hands to do that. God is the bull dozer. I'm just a seed sower, plant waterer here.
timmopussycat
Puritan Board Junior
It is worth noticing that if we pray the first 3 clauses of the Lord's prayer, we are essentially the same thing as the imprecatory psalms for we are asking for a worldwide hallowing of God's name, an equivalent spread to his kingdom and equivalent doing of his will.
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