Practical effects of ex-communication church discipline

[Scott1]

What is your understanding of the practical effects of a person who is ex-communicated from a particular church?

Assume for purposes of the poll that a biblical process was followed up that point and that

The power which Christ has given the Church is for building up, and not for destruction.

You may choose as many as apply.

 

[JBaldwin]

I didn't vote. What do you mean by church discipline? Do you mean the person has been approached by elders and not repented, but still claims to be a believer? Or is this someone who after being approached by elders claims they are no longer a believer? If they deny Christ, they ought to be out completely, but people should continue praying for them.

If the person does not see what it is they have done wrong and won't repent, then it is a matter of barring them from the Lord's Table and from doing activities in the church other than worship or teaching times.

I don't believe it is ever right to not have contact with someone, because it is often in the contact that the person repents. There should be love, prayer and a non-tolerant attitude toward the sin.

 

[Scott1]

JBaldwin
Puritanboard Junior

What do you mean by church discipline? Do you mean the person has been approached by elders and not repented, but still claims to be a believer? Or is this someone who after being approached by elders claims they are no longer a believer?

The poll has in view a person, a member, who has been dealt with by the denomination's formal (judicial) process, which would have included several biblical steps before ex-communication, and will not repent of open, known, scandalous sin.

 

[Herald]

The practical effects? The unrepentant person usually defends their actions or acts in defiance of what they know is right. But the goal is repentance and restoration. The church needs to be ready to welcome back the person who repents. Part of that welcoming back is not to allow the brother or sister to live with a cloud over their head. We must avoid slander, gossip and alienation.

If church discipline is practiced correctly we will understand that we are, indeed, our brothers keeper. Church discipline is not reserved only for cases of adultery or divorce. If we know that our brother is in sin, we are to love our brother by going to them privately. In order to do that we must have a close enough relationship to be heard by our brother. This means we should be engaging one another more than on The Lord's Day. I wonder if we loved each other the way John commanded whether ex-communication would be even more infrequent.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Your options leave a great deal to be desired. Handing someone over to the devil for sifting should mean we pray for their repentance and ultimate return to the fold.

 

[TimV]

Your options leave a great deal to be desired. Handing someone over to the devil for sifting should mean we pray for their repentance and ultimate return to the fold.

I see you're a member of the PCA. The PCA BCO doesn't allow for just praying in the case of excommunication, and I doubt that the PCA is different than any other Reformed church on that score, so I'm not sure what would be gained by adding that as a poll option.

 

[Hippo]

Why on earth would you want them to cease attending and hearing the Gospel preached? This would be the ordinary method of securing repentance.

I would have thought they should be removed from any office and the sacrements could be witheld, what more would be justified in the majority of cases?

 

[shackleton]

I thought the idea of church discipline was to scare people, to give them a sort of "time-out" so they can think of what they are doing and repent. Unfortunately with so many churches in any given area they will most likely just go to a church that just wants numbers.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I also sincerely hope that whomever put "have no contact with them" did not also put "evangelise them as an unbeliever" for the two would be in direct opposition of the other, yes?

 

[Scott1]

Presbyterian Church in America
Book of Church Order
the rules of discipline

chapter 27

discipline – its nature, subjects and ends

27-1. discipline is the exercise of authority given the church by the lord
Jesus Christ to instruct and guide its members and to promote its
purity and welfare.
the term has two senses:
A. The one referring to the whole government, inspection, training,
guardianship and control which the church maintains over its
members, its officers and its courts;
b. The other a restricted and technical sense, signifying judicial process.
27-2. All baptized persons, being members of the church are subject to its
discipline and entitled to the benefits thereof.
27-3. the exercise of discipline is highly important and necessary. In its
proper usage discipline maintains:
A. The glory of god,
b. The purity of his church,
c. The keeping and reclaiming of disobedient sinners. Discipline is
for the purpose of godliness (1 timothy 4:7); therefore, it
demands a self-examination under scripture.
Its ends, so far as it involves judicial action, are the rebuke of offenses, the
removal of scandal, the vindication of the honor of Christ, the promotion of the
purity and general edification of the church, and the spiritual good of offenders
themselves.
27-4. the power which Christ has given the church is for building up, and not
for destruction. It is to be exercised as under a dispensation of mercy and not of
wrath. as in the preaching of the word the wicked are doctrinally separated from
the good, so by discipline the church authoritatively separates between the holy
and the profane. In this it acts the part of a tender mother, correcting her children
for their good, that every one of them may be presented faultless in the day of the
lord Jesus. Discipline is systematic training under the authority of god’s
scripture. no communing or non-communing member of the church should be
allowed to stray from the scripture’s discipline. Therefore, teaching elders must:
A. Instruct the officers in discipline,
b. Instruct the congregation in discipline,
c. Jointly practice it in the context of the congregation and church
courts.
27-5 the book of church order
27-5. Scriptural law is the basis of all discipline because it is the revelation
of god’s holy will.
proper disciplinary principles are set forth in the scriptures and must
be followed. They are:
A. Instruction in the word;
b. Individual’s responsibility to admonish one another (matthew
18:15, galatians 6:1);
c. If the admonition is rejected, then the calling of one or more
witnesses (matthew 18:16);
d. If rejection persists, then the church must act through her court
unto admonition, suspension, excommunication and deposition
(see bco 29 and 30 for further explanation).
Steps (a) through (d) must be followed in proper order for the
exercise of discipline.

 

[Augusta]

You can't allow them to stay in the church because the church is to be protected from such people and why should they repent if nothing has changed hardly and they still get to come to church? Just barring them from the table is one of the steps right. You are way past that once you get to excommunication.

-----Added 12/20/2008 at 09:56:04 EST-----

JC you are right they are incongruent. I think people are picking that to try to be softies but it defeats the purpose. I am sure that elders are capable of staying in limited contact to see if there is a sign of repentance and that it should be left to them.

 

[Herald]

Ex-communicating is not the same as preventing the person from actually attending the worship service. Ex-communicating is removing the person from the blessings of the visible church and considering them as not part of the invisible church. They cannot partake of the Lord's Supper or true fellowship. They are objects of evangelism, and a standing call to repentance. Short of using force to prevent them from walking in the building this would be the reality of ex-communication. Practically speaking, I doubt the individual would want to attend services after being ex-communicated unless it was because of true repentance.

 

[Scott1]

From an earlier thread, from Concerning Scandal (Naphtali Press, 1990).James Durham

This might be helpful in understanding a historical biblical view of this:
(emphasis added)

What Further Duty Is Required Of Private Professors Towards Heretics That Are Cut Off.
If it is asked ‘What duty further is called for from private persons towards a person cut off?’ ANSWER. I suppose these things are called for:
1. Abstinence from unnecessary civil fellowship, as, not to frequent their company, to visit them, to dine or sup with them, or to have them dining or supping with us, or to use such familiarity in such things, as [ordinarily is] with others, or possibly has been with them. So it is [in] 1 Cor. 5, and it is no less the people’s duty to carry so, that it may be a mean for their edification, than proportionally it is the minister’s duty to instruct, pass sentence, etc.
2. There would be an abstinence from Christian fellowship, that is, we would not pray with them, read or confer of spiritual purposes (purposely at least), nor do any such thing that belongs to Christian communion: that is, to reject him in that sense from Christian fellowship, and to account him as an heathen man or publican. In this respect, we cannot walk with an excommunicate man, as we may walk with other Christians. And in the first respect, we cannot walk with them, as we may walk with other heathens, that, it may be, are guilty of as gross sins upon the matter. For the Word of the Lord, puts this difference expressly between them and these who are simply heathens (1 Cor. 5).
3. Yet even then prayer may be made for them. For excommunication is no evidence that a person has sinned the sin against the Holy Ghost, or that their sin is a sin unto death. And their necessities, if they are in want, may and should be supplied, because they are men, and it is natural to supply such. They may be helped also against unjust violence, or from any personal hazard, if they fall in it. And as occasion offers, folks may give a weighty serious word of admonition unto them, and such like. Because by such means, the end of the sentence and its weight are furthered, and not weakened.
4. These that are in natural relations, ought to walk in the duties of them, as husbands and wives, parents and children, masters and servants, magistrates and subjects, etc., for what nature binds, the church does not loose.
5. Men may follow civil business, as paying or exacting payment of debts, buying or selling, and may walk in such things as are requisite for humane fellowship and society; because, though church censures are to humble and shame men, by bearing in on them their sinfulness, yet it is not to undo them, and simply to take away a being from them.
6. Yet all these things would be done with them in such a manner, as (1.), the persons may show their indignation at their way, even when they express tenderness to their persons. (2.) It would be done in a different manner from what [ordinarily is] with others not under such a sentence, that so they may bear out their respect to the sentence, even when they show respect to them. Therefore, there would not be such frequency in meddling with such persons, nor would it be with familiarity or many words, and long discourses to other purposes, nor with laughing, and with such cheerfulness, intimacy or complacency, as is used with others. But, in a word, the business would be done, and other things abstained from. (3.) When what is necessary is past, except it is on necessity, folks would not eat or drink with them at the time of doing their business, or after the closing of the same; because that does not necessarily belong to them as men, and by so doing, the due distance would not be kept. And this is the great practical [point], so to carry to them as the weight of the sentence is not lessened, nor they prejudged of what otherways is necessary to their being, but that so every opportunity may be taken, whereby their edification may be advanced.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Wannabee]

Ex-communicating is removing the person from the blessings of the visible church and considering them as not part of the invisible church. They cannot partake of the Lord's Supper or true fellowship. They are objects of evangelism, and a standing call to repentance.

I think 1 Corinthians 5 makes it clear that we must take it a step further. Beyond the fact that, unlike unbelievers, we call the ex-communicated to repent of specific willful sin, we are "not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person" (1 Cor 5:9). This is in light of the fact that this mandate does not include the "people of this world" (v. 10), since we would then need to go out of the world. The reason is that we judge those who are in the church according to Scripture, not those without. We leave those without to be judged by God alone (vv 12-13). This is one of the reasons we put those who are characterized by unbelief out of the church (excommunicate). They are then left to be judged by God alone. "Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person" (v. 13 & Deut. 13:5; 17:7, 12; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21, 24; 24:7; 1 Cor. 5:2).

 

[Herald]

Ex-communicating is removing the person from the blessings of the visible church and considering them as not part of the invisible church. They cannot partake of the Lord's Supper or true fellowship. They are objects of evangelism, and a standing call to repentance.

I think 1 Corinthians 5 makes it clear that we must take it a step further. Beyond the fact that, unlike unbelievers, we call the ex-communicated to repent of specific willful sin, we are "not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person" (1 Cor 5:9). This is in light of the fact that this mandate does not include the "people of this world" (v. 10), since we would then need to go out of the world. The reason is that we judge those who are in the church according to Scripture, not those without. We leave those without to be judged by God alone (vv 12-13). This is one of the reasons we put those who are characterized by unbelief out of the church (excommunicate). They are then left to be judged by God alone. "Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person" (v. 13 & Deut. 13:5; 17:7, 12; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21, 24; 24:7; 1 Cor. 5:2).

I didn't take the time to delineate the blessings of the visible church that would be withheld from a person who is ex-communicated. I was writing from the big picture perspective.

 

[Tim]

Good thread. You don't hear about discipline and ex-communication much in the church (at least I haven't), so it is seldom discussed.

 

[Scott1]

John Calvin said a true church is characterized by three marks,

Right doctrine
Right administration of the sacraments
Right administration of church discipline

What is your understanding of what Scripture teaches of the practical effect of excommunication discipline?

-----Added 12/22/2008 at 05:28:33 EST-----

The poll has closed.

Based on 24 votes of what voters understood to be the biblical practical affectations of ex-communication church discipline, one category received a majority vote (54%)

Individual church members ought evangelize them as unbelievers outside of church life only

Almost 46% of voters said ex-communicated members could remain at the church even after ex-communication, as non-members. This would seem to be a contradictory result within the poll results.


8% said a church member who has taken member vows is immediately freed from church discipline process if they no longer wish to be bound by that vow (e.g. leaving)

0% said we ought not pray for an ex-communicated person.

 

[TimV]

Tim in the SA Reformed churches they call it censure, and that's always been the way a small community keeps people in line. It doesn't happen often, but just the threat of it usually brings people back into line. I saw it happen to a guy who was sleeping with his farm laborers. He didn't repent, and no body would even greet him. They figured

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

Means what it seems like it means.

 

[Scott1]

Based on research from passages from James Durham, other Puritan Board threads such as this one http://www.puritanboard.com/f47/excommunication-books-15674/, the PCA Book of Church Order, and GI Williamson's, "Church Censures" chapter of the Westminster Confession of Faith for Study cases, here's what seems to be the most biblical:

Christians ought not have contact with the person 3 12.50%
Christians ought to avoid contact after ex-communication, but this does not undo family or business contractual obligations.

Christians ought not pray for the person 0 0%
Christians can always pray to God asking He grant repentance or salvation

Person not allowed to participate in any way in the life of any church in the denomination 7 29.17%
Ex-communicated person should not be received in church life, as a member, non-member, visitor or in any way until repentance is recognized by church authority.

Person not to participate in any way in the life of any Christian denomination 6 25.00%
Christian denominations should ordinarily recognize the ex-communication authority of each other

Individual church members ought evangelize them as unbelievers outside of church life only 13 54.17%
It would seem private contacts solely for the purpose of evangelizing would be allowed

Evangelize them as unbelievers allowing them to continue as non-members 11 45.83%
No, once ex-communicated, that person may not participate in the life of the church in any way unless and until repentance occurs and is recognized by church authority

Discontinue all discipline immediately if person no longer wishes to be bound by member vows 2 8.33%
Vows of this kind before God are not conditional. The authority is with the church through officers to follow through with ex-communication if they so choose, even if the person leaves. This should ordinarily be respected by other Christians individually and other denominations.