Practical applications for the Arminian error.

[CDM]

Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Chris asked:-

The "one who comes to me" are the ones the Father has given to the Son, right? These "ones" are one group of people, correct? They're not a separate category of people.

Are you saying there are the ones the Father has given the Son and then there are others the Father has NOT given the Son that will come to Christ?

Chris, don't filter the word through your own preconceptions. You sound as if you're worried that one of the non-elect is going to sneak into heaven while God's not looking! Whoever will may enter! Preach this great truth for all you're worth! But do it knowing that whoever does enter will find that God has loved him from the foundation of the world, and has been drawing him to Himself (Jer 31:3 ). Listen to Spurgeon.

How am I filtering the word through my own preconceptions? How do I err when I was asking you questions in light of the Doctrines of Grace?

With your Spurgeon citation, you are talking about how to preach (of which I agree) I was seeking clarification of what you wrote earlier. You cleared it up, thanks. BTW, God willing, this is exactly how I will preach. Yes, of course, "Whoever will may enter!"

My general point was, no one comes to the Son that the Father hasn't given the Son from the foundation of the world. I know, this is very basic Calvinism and maybe that's why you misunderstood my questions. In retrospect, my questions are suited for a confused Calvinist, not you.

"You sound as if you're worried that one of the non-elect is going to sneak into heaven while God's not looking!"

No, I'm not worried about that happening at all. Because it is I M P O S S I B L E. The ones willing are the same as the ones that WILL come to the Son. Why? Those are the ones that the Father has given him.

We all agree on these truths so I'll just end it here.

 

[Steve Owen]

Hi Chris,
I'm sorry if I came across a bit sarcastic in my last post.
You and I are clearly on the same page here. That's great!

God bless,

Martin

 

[cih1355]

I have met some Arminians who believe that the penalty of sin can be paid for twice. They believe that those who reject Jesus will pay the penalty of sin even though Jesus actually paid it for them. Their view of Christ's atonement leads to the conclusion that God's justice is violated and that man has something to contribute to his salvation. They still insist that man contributes nothing to his salvation and that Christ alone saves sinners. They do not see the inconsistency in their beliefs.

 

[ReformedWretch]

I've backed out of this for a while but I have one more thing to contribute.

Look, there are so many here far more educated than me, and we don't want to insinuate (especially me) that one has to have a certain level of "knowledge" in order to be saved. But...it seems to me that the biggest problem with most Arminians today is that they lack education in the word of God. They think they know and understand it, but they don't. I know because that was me for many years.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Originally posted by houseparent
I've backed out of this for a while but I have one more thing to contribute.

Look, there are so many here far more educated than me, and we don't want to insinuate (especially me) that one has to have a certain level of "knowledge" in order to be saved. But...it seems to me that the biggest problem with most Arminians today is that they lack education in the word of God. They think they know and understand it, but they don't. I know because that was me for many years.

I agree.

I think the "Arminian problem", in my feeble mind, boils down to this:

1. Is one worried about their lack of knowledge because one is concerned about the damage it is doing to sheep? Is the concern out of love? Are you grieved for the sake of emaciated sheep that need food and it tears you up that shepherds are starving them?

OR

2. Is one unable to stomach the fact that there are those who call themselves Christians that don't have their theology straight? Who do they think they are not understanding full-orbed Reformed, paedobaptist, infralapsarian, Van-Tillian, Puritan, and Presbyterian THEOLOGY! May they burn in the acid of their ulcerated stomach acid!!

Sorry, just being a bit hyperbolic.

It's not that error isn't error and that error isn't harmful. I think what Ben (and others) have been concerned about is not calling sheep by the name of goats. Let's think of them as sheep and then think loving thoughts of concern for them.

For the record, Adam, I think you have the right heart. Insofar as others demonstrate a lack of charity, God judges the heart and not I. I do believe, however, that some ought to take stock of where their concern lies.

 

[Magma2]

Look, there are so many here far more educated than me, and we don't want to insinuate (especially me) that one has to have a certain level of "knowledge" in order to be saved. But...it seems to me that the biggest problem with most Arminians today is that they lack education in the word of God. They think they know and understand it, but they don't. I know because that was me for many years.

I agree and am reminded of Hosea 4:6,7; "œMy people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. The more they multiplied, the more they sinned against Me; I will change their glory into shame."

I think the real shame is that we have pastors who in their ordination vows swear that they "œsincerely receive and adopt the Confession of Faith and the Catechisms of this Church as containing the system of doctrine taught in the Holy Scripture," yet they expend their efforts defending a system of doctrine completely antithetical and hostile to the one they vowed to uphold. Which reminds me of another passage:

2 Tim 4:3,4; "œ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths."

I notice on your avatar that it says "œdon´t lie to kids." I think that has some application here too. Arminianism is a lie. Your observations are spot on Adam and it doesn´t take a ThD in theology to identify rank hypocrisy when it´s right under your nose. Good post :bigsmile:

 

[Saved sheep]

On Arminians:

Gal. 1, 6-9

Two groups are adressed here: them that are teached arminianism and them that are teaching that heresy. This is crucial; for the first is hope, for the others is no hope.

Why?

If you ever REALLY INSISTED by Scripture and by reasonable, logical arguments based on Scripture concerning TOTAL depravity and unconditional election, then you know that only three things can happen:

1. After teaching, rebuking, withstanding two, maybe three times the arminian suspect sees his error and admits it (and hopefully repents).
2. After issuing most of the well-known humanistic-arminianistic arguments based on twisted verses (if at all based on Scripture) the suspect will become long wolf-teeth. In effect, he is resisting the Holy Spirit (in refusing the clear Word of Scripture)
3. Ignorance, which is in fact the same as in the second case. Here, his spiritually deadness is just more obvious. He does not receive the truth, too.

The pupils may err and repent after hearing the truth. The teachers are damned.

Romans 16, 17 (This is not an "žoption"œ, do it!)
Romans 16, 18 (the ever-smiling and most-pious arminian. Do you recognize him?)
1. Timotheus 6, 3-5 (Leave the false teachers)
2. Timotheus 3, 1-7 (Not only arminians)
Titus 3, 10-11 (That´s why there is hope for the pupils till rebuked two times)
1. Peter 2, 7-8 (They think their decision is their rock. They are predestinated so.)

This is what Scripture says. There is no room for "žprivat interpretations"œ about false brethren called arminians. Some may say: "žoh, but ARMINIANS are not mentioned."œ If this is the case, then please let me know what groups can be meant.

Again: if you ever REALLY insisted on Scripture in an argument with an arminian than you know: they are God-haters. They then show their real faces. They hate God, Scripture and you.

But they preach! "“ Yes, but another Gospel.
But people come to faith! "“ Yes, because it´s God, the Holy Spirit who bloweth where He wills!

And please consider:

Math. 7, 22-23
Mark 9, 38-40
Luke 9, 49-50

This is no teaching, but please consider it.

If not free-willers in all their forms are meant by Scripture, then what is? Tell me.

Real Arminians are unsaved, but their pupils can be teached the truth. Then they ultimately show their true father.

What do you fear? If an arminian repents, then he will in the end THANK you for beeing "žharsh"œ. (Every opposition is harsh to them.) If he repents not, so you did your job!

Who did "žcall"œ me to say this and interpret Scriptue that way?
It´s simply sola scriptura. I need no inner voice, heavenly revelation besides scripture or a calling by a vision.

The question boils down to this: are you TRULY reformed or not? Do you respect Scripture as the only Holy Revelation?

Ok, pick up the stones.

[Edited on 2-20-2006 by Saved sheep]

[Edited on 2-20-2006 by Saved sheep]

[Edited on 2-20-2006 by Saved sheep]

 

[ReformedWretch]

As heated as this thread has gooten, I have enjoyed it very much. I appreciate everyone who has discussed this issue with me and allowed me to speak my mind on it as well.

 

[Scot]

The 'god' of Arminianism by Augustus Toplady

I dare say, that, in such an auditory as this, a number of Arminians are present. I fear, that all our public assemblies have too many of them. Perhaps, however, even these people, idolaters as they are, may be apt to blame, and, indeed, with justice, the absurdity of those who worship idols of silver and gold, the work of men's hands. But let me ask: If it be so very absurd, to worship the work of other men's hands what must it be, to worship the works of our own hands? Perhaps, you may say, 'God forbid that I should do so. Nevertheless, let me tell you, that trust, confidence, reliance, and dependence, for salvation, are all acts and very solemn ones too, of divine worship: and upon whatsoever you depend, whether in whole or in part, for your acceptance with God, and for your justification in his sight, whatsoever, you rely upon, and trust in, for the attainment of grace or glory; if it be any thing short of God in Christ, you are an idolater for all intents and purposes.

Very different is the idea which Scripture gives us, of the ever-blessed God, from that of those false gods worshipped by the heathens; and from that degrading representation of the true God, which Arminianism would palm upon mankind. Our God (says this Psalm, verse the third) is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he pleased. This is not the Arminian idea of God: for our free-willers and our chance- mongers tell us, that God does not do whatsoever he pleases; that there are a great number of things, which God wishes to do, and rags and strives to do, and yet cannot bring to pass ... Is their god the Bible-God? Certainly not. Their god 'submits' to difficulties which he 'cannot help' himself out of, and endearours to make himself 'easy' under millions and millions of inextricable embarrassments, uncomfortable disappointments, and mortifying defeats. ...This said scheme ascends, on the ladder of blasphemy, to the mountain top of atheism; and then hurls itself from that precipice, into the gulph of blind, adamantine necessity, in order to prove mankind free agents!

... One great contest, between the religion of Arminianism, and the religion of Christ, is, who shall stand entitled to the paise and glory of a sinner's salvation? Conversion decides this point at once; for I think that, without any imputation of uncharitableness, I may venture to say, that every truly awakened person, at least when he is under the shine of God's countenance upon his soul, will fall down upon his knees, with this hymn of praise ascending from his heart, Not unto me, O Lord, not unto me, but to thy name, give the glory: I am saved not for my righteousness, but for thy mercy and thy truth's sake.

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura

Allow me to press you a little: you grant that the Body of Christ is broader than the Reformed camp... then how can you deny the validity of the Gospel message preached by those who are not Reformed?

Sola,

This caught my eye. I'm going to assume that you are paedobaptist. If you're not you will still catch the point. "You grant that the Body of Christ is broader than the Reformed camp, then how can you deny the validity of" re-baptism?

Peace,

Ron