No, nor is it implied.
postmillennialism, premillennialism, amillennialism - your stance?
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No, nor is it implied.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
That's partly why I am torn between some forms of postmillennialism and some forms of premil. Jury is out on this one.
Many amil theologian/professors I know are very Kantian in their application of eschatology and kingdom ethics. I rejoice that you are not.
MOSES
Puritan Board Freshman
Interesting twist.
If we take the following simple definitions:
Post-mill - Christ will return after the millennial reign
Pre-mill - Christ will return before the millennial reign
What if one is post-mill in his eschatolgy as far as having an eschatology of hope and victory. That Christ is ruling and reigning in his kingdom now and will do so until he has subdued all nations and peoples and put all enemies under his feet. (he is a post-mill)
Now, what if this same person holds to preterism. A form of preterism that see's the parousia spoken of in scritpure as only referring to 70ad. That Jesus coming in 70ad was to end the old age and establish the new. His millennial reign was in full force after 70ad.
(This would make one say that Jesus came back before the millennial reign...That makes him a pre-mill!)
The whole box of millennial schemas is not sufficient.
If we take the following simple definitions:
Post-mill - Christ will return after the millennial reign
Pre-mill - Christ will return before the millennial reign
What if one is post-mill in his eschatolgy as far as having an eschatology of hope and victory. That Christ is ruling and reigning in his kingdom now and will do so until he has subdued all nations and peoples and put all enemies under his feet. (he is a post-mill)
Now, what if this same person holds to preterism. A form of preterism that see's the parousia spoken of in scritpure as only referring to 70ad. That Jesus coming in 70ad was to end the old age and establish the new. His millennial reign was in full force after 70ad.
(This would make one say that Jesus came back before the millennial reign...That makes him a pre-mill!)
The whole box of millennial schemas is not sufficient.
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
I'm postmil, but I haven't voted.
I studied amillennialism years ago on my transition out of dispensationalism. I had a good friend at the time who was amil (he even wrote an entry-level commentary on Revelation from and idealist amil position), but I was not very convinced.
Recently, on the advice of an amil, I went out and bought Anthony Hoekema's The Bible and the Future, and I’m working through it. Assuming I’m desperate to be counted among the enlightened, what other authors or materials would work to convince an epistemologically self-conscious postmillennialist of the error of his ways?
I studied amillennialism years ago on my transition out of dispensationalism. I had a good friend at the time who was amil (he even wrote an entry-level commentary on Revelation from and idealist amil position), but I was not very convinced.
Recently, on the advice of an amil, I went out and bought Anthony Hoekema's The Bible and the Future, and I’m working through it. Assuming I’m desperate to be counted among the enlightened, what other authors or materials would work to convince an epistemologically self-conscious postmillennialist of the error of his ways?
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
The world will get better whenever the gospel advances. Let's face it, is the world really much worse now than in the days of the Roman Empire? Those who claim that postmillennialists believe the world is somehow evolving into a better place are setting up a straw-man; we believe that over the course of history Christ's kingdom will be victorious over the kingdom of man, but not that the world is presently getting better and better.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Amill or Postmill is the way to go. The only problem is that I found Amills rather boring and unmotivated. Excitement for eschatology is only found with the Premills and the Postmills. From the rapture right prognosticators to the erudite work of the Postmills, these two groups have passion. But the amills.
There is not much to get excited about if Christ's kingdom is predestined to defeat in history, while humanists rule the world.
Christ said His Kingdom is not of this world so don't look for it,his kingdom ultimate place is the new heavens and the new earth. Kim Riddlebarger in "A Study of American Postmillenialism" says,"Another critical factor which must be kept in view is that the term postmillenial is usually understood today as an eschatological position quite distinct from "amillennialism." in fact, it is generally understood that one who adopts a postmillennial eschatology self-consciously rejects the amilllennial understanding of the millennial age and nature of the reign of Christ. However, the term amillennialism, as we will see, was not used in the ninteenth century, and the origin of the term is shrouded in mystery. Accordingly, Gaffin asks the poignant questionin this regard, "Who coined the term amillennial?" The problem is that apparently there is not a clear-cut defining moment when the term amillennial comes into standard usage and the position is recognized as something quite distinct from postmillennialism. This problem is illustrated by the treatment given this subject by Louis Berkgof, Berkhof, himself a Princeton graduate, and astudent of B.B.Warfield, pointed out in 1938 that "the name [amillennialism]is new indeed, but the view to which it has applied is as old as Christianity. And yet, virtuallyall historians of doctrine agree that what is now known as amillennialist is generally the eschatology of historic Christianity. Even B.B.Warfield, usually portrayed as postmillennial in his eschatology, remarked to his friend SamuelG. Craig, that amillennialism of the type held by his esteemed Dutch colleagues Herman Bavinck and Abraham Kuyper "is the historic Protestant view, as expressed in the creeds of the Reformation period including the Westminster StandardS."What then are the differences between "amillennialism" and "postmillennialism," and how do these terms develop unique distinctives".
There is a difference between saying Christ's kingdom is not of this world (meaning that it does not derive its authority from an earthly source) and saying that it is victorious in this world.
MOSES
Puritan Board Freshman
I find it interesting that 2000 years ago, Christ was forsaken even by his disciples when he was arrested.
Now...2000 years later I am dwelling in a large country that has a Church on every corner (which only 500 years ago was a vast wilderness), and I'm interacting with disciples all over the world.
Seems like the kingdom is making some progress.
Now...2000 years later I am dwelling in a large country that has a Church on every corner (which only 500 years ago was a vast wilderness), and I'm interacting with disciples all over the world.
Seems like the kingdom is making some progress.
larryjf
Puritan Board Senior
I have been studying this topic lately, and first let me say that Daniel's book is very good.
I started wondering...
Churches started disconnecting government with the Church.
The Westminster Standards underwent revision to which statements regarding the civil authorities role under Christ was softened.
Now, some newer Bibles soften the call to make disciples "of all nations"
Is this how it normally funnels down? The Church starts thinking differently, so they change their confessions, and eventually the Scripture themselves are changed?
Mat 28:19 from some of those "newer" versions i mentioned...
The Message: (vv18-20)
Jesus, undeterred, went right ahead and gave his charge: "God authorized and commanded me to commission you: Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you. I'll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up to the end of the age."
Contemporary English Version:
Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
Worldwide English (instead of "of" they use "in"):
So go and make disciples in all countries. Baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
I started wondering...
Churches started disconnecting government with the Church.
The Westminster Standards underwent revision to which statements regarding the civil authorities role under Christ was softened.
Now, some newer Bibles soften the call to make disciples "of all nations"
Is this how it normally funnels down? The Church starts thinking differently, so they change their confessions, and eventually the Scripture themselves are changed?
Mat 28:19 from some of those "newer" versions i mentioned...
The Message: (vv18-20)
Jesus, undeterred, went right ahead and gave his charge: "God authorized and commanded me to commission you: Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you. I'll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up to the end of the age."
Contemporary English Version:
Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
Worldwide English (instead of "of" they use "in"):
So go and make disciples in all countries. Baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
larryjf
Puritan Board Senior
There is not much to get excited about if Christ's kingdom is predestined to defeat in history, while humanists rule the world.
Christ said His Kingdom is not of this world so don't look for it,his kingdom ultimate place is the new heavens and the new earth. Kim Riddlebarger in "A Study of American Postmillenialism" says,"Another critical factor which must be kept in view is that the term postmillenial is usually understood today as an eschatological position quite distinct from "amillennialism." in fact, it is generally understood that one who adopts a postmillennial eschatology self-consciously rejects the amilllennial understanding of the millennial age and nature of the reign of Christ. However, the term amillennialism, as we will see, was not used in the ninteenth century, and the origin of the term is shrouded in mystery. Accordingly, Gaffin asks the poignant questionin this regard, "Who coined the term amillennial?" The problem is that apparently there is not a clear-cut defining moment when the term amillennial comes into standard usage and the position is recognized as something quite distinct from postmillennialism. This problem is illustrated by the treatment given this subject by Louis Berkgof, Berkhof, himself a Princeton graduate, and astudent of B.B.Warfield, pointed out in 1938 that "the name [amillennialism]is new indeed, but the view to which it has applied is as old as Christianity. And yet, virtuallyall historians of doctrine agree that what is now known as amillennialist is generally the eschatology of historic Christianity. Even B.B.Warfield, usually portrayed as postmillennial in his eschatology, remarked to his friend SamuelG. Craig, that amillennialism of the type held by his esteemed Dutch colleagues Herman Bavinck and Abraham Kuyper "is the historic Protestant view, as expressed in the creeds of the Reformation period including the Westminster StandardS."What then are the differences between "amillennialism" and "postmillennialism," and how do these terms develop unique distinctives".
There is a difference between saying Christ's kingdom is not of this world (meaning that it does not derive its authority from an earthly source) and saying that it is victorious in this world.
I agree with Daniel here. Christ's kingdom knows no bounds as far as where it is, though it derives its power from Heaven. Otherwise, how could He say...
...All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (Mat 28:18)
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Thanks for the compliment Larry; though I am not sure I would even describe those versions as translations, more like travesty's. Those are truly appalling renderings.
Postmillennialism and the Reformed Faith
Postmillennialism and the Reformed Faith
[The following is a synopsis of the evangelical postmillennial position by the late Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen.]
There is enough misunderstanding of evangelical, Bible-believing postmillennialism abroad today that it would be worthwhile to make note of the kind of constituative doctrinal convictions which have been set forth by its representatives.
1. Evangelical postmillennialists {referred to as EPs from here on} champion the inspiration, infallibility, and sole doctrinal authority of the Bible.
2. EPs believe that fallen man is totally unable to do any saving good, cannot atone for his sins, and can become a member of the kingdom of God only through the redemptive work of the Savior and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
3. EPs teach the glorious, personal return of Jesus Christ at the end of history to judge the world.
4. EPs insist that at his first advent Jesus, the Son of God, came as the Messianic or Mediatorial King and established His saving Kingdom among men on earth. Citing Philippians 2, Acts 2, Ephesians 1, Hebrews 1, and a host of other Biblical texts, William Symington wrote these Words in his study, Messiah the Prince, or, The Mediatorial Dominion of Jesus Christ: "Christ's appointment [to the kingly office] was still farther intimated by his actual investiture with regal power at and after his resurrection . . . . Christ's appointment gives him rightful claim to the implicit and conscientious obedience of every moral creature . . . . This appointment affords ample security for the overthrow of all Christ's enemies, and the ultimate establishment of his kingdom in the world." David Brown could hardly be clearer: "Christ's proper kingdom is already in being; commencing formally on His ascension to the right hand of God, and continuing unchanged, both in character and form, till the final judgment."
5. EPs are painfully aware that those who belong to Christ -- the church -- are appointed to suffering in this world, and will inevitably undergo persecution and affliction, in following their Savior and King. Listen again to Symington: "The members of the church have many enemies. The devil, the world, and the flesh, are in league against them. They wrestle not only against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickednesses in high places. They are required to assume the character, equipments, and attitude of soldiers..... Satan, the chief and leader of these enemies, exasperated at his overthrow, makes a desperate effort to regain his lost dominion over them; and although he cannot succeed, he does much to annoy such as have been rescued from his grasp." Charles Hodge commented upon 2 Corinthians 4 that Paul there "compares himself to a combatant, first hardly pressed, then hemmed in, then pursued, then actually cast down. This was not an occasional experience, but his life was like that of Christ, an uninterrupted succession of indignities and suffering.... We constantly illustrate in our person the sufferings of Christ. We are treated as he was treated; neglected, defamed, despised, maltreated...."
6. EPs believe that the gospel is to be preached to all nations by the church prior to the second advent of Christ, eventually bringing worldwide conversion, and that this is the church's calling from God. Charles Hodge taught: "The first great event which is to precede the second coming of Christ, is the universal proclamation of the Gospel.... The conversion of the Gentile world is the work assigned the Church under the present dispensation." B. B. Warfield argued that "precisely what the risen Lord, who has been made head over all things for his church, is doing through these years that stretch between his first and second comings, is conquering the world to himself; and the world is to be nothing less than a converted world.... All conflict, then, will be over, the conquest of the world will be complete, before Jesus returns to earth."
7. EPism maintains that the victorious advance of Christ's kingdom in the world will take place in terms of the present, peaceful and Spiritual power of the gospel rather than through a radically different principle of operation, namely Christ's physical presence on earth using violence to subdue opposition. A. A. Hodge put it this way: "The Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, clearly reveal that the gospel is to exercise an influence over all branches of the human family, immeasurably more extensive and more thoroughly transforming than any it has ever realized in time past. This end is to be gradually attained through the spiritual presence of Christ in the ordinary dispensation of Providence, and ministrations of the church." Charles Hodge insisted that "There is no intimation in the New Testament that the work of converting the world is to be effected by any other means than those now in use.... It is to dishounour [sic, sl] the Gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit, to suppose that they are inadequate to the accomplishment of this work."
8. EPism believes that with the power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel, in gradual stages of growth, the preponderance of men and nations will submit to Christ at some time in the future. B. B. Warfield drew this generalization: "the nature of the whole dispensation in which we are living, and which stretches from the First to the Second Advent, [is] a period of advancing conquest on the part of Christ.... The prophecy [of Romans 11] promises the universal Christianization of the world." Elsewhere he wrote: "If you wish, as you lift your eyes to the far horizon of the future, to see looming on the edge of time the glory of a saved world, you can find warrant for so great a vision only in the high principles that it is God and God alone who saves men, that all their salvation is from him, and that in his own good time and way he will bring the world in its entirety to the feet of him whom he has not hesitated to present to our adoring love not merely as Savior of our souls, but as the Savior of the world.... The redemption of the world is similarly a process. It, too, has stages; it, too, advances only gradually to its completion...."
9. EPists do not hold that each and every individual on earth will someday be saved, but that at some future time the vast majority will; in Christ's wheat field there will always be found some tares, up until the final harvest in judgment. Charles Hodge taught that "it is not to be inferred from this [Biblical promise of Gentile and Jewish conversion] that either all the heathen or all the Jews are to become true Christians. In many cases the conversion may be merely nominal. There will probably enough remain unchanged in heart to be the germ of that persecuting power which shall bring about those days of tribulation which the Bible seems to teach are to immediately precede the coming of the Lord."
10. EPism teaches that there will be a final apostasy or falling away just prior to the return of Christ in judgment on the world. Interpreting Revelation 20, A. A. Hodge wrote: "Christ has in reserve for his church a period of universal expansion and of pre-eminent spiritual prosperity, when the spirit and character of the "nobel army of martyrs" shall be reproduced again in the great body of God's people in an unprecedented triumph of their cause, and in the overthrow of that of their enemies, receive judgment over their foes and reign in the earth; while the party of Satan, 'the rest of the dead,' shall not flourish again until the thousand years be ended, when it shall prevail again for a little season." Charles Hodge held that "The great truth set forth in these prophesies is, that there was future ... a great apostasy in the Church; that this apostasy would be Anti-christian (or Antichrist), ally itself with the world and become a great persecuting power... [which will] be over taken with a final destruction when the Lord comes."
Postmillennialism and the Reformed Faith
[The following is a synopsis of the evangelical postmillennial position by the late Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen.]
There is enough misunderstanding of evangelical, Bible-believing postmillennialism abroad today that it would be worthwhile to make note of the kind of constituative doctrinal convictions which have been set forth by its representatives.
1. Evangelical postmillennialists {referred to as EPs from here on} champion the inspiration, infallibility, and sole doctrinal authority of the Bible.
2. EPs believe that fallen man is totally unable to do any saving good, cannot atone for his sins, and can become a member of the kingdom of God only through the redemptive work of the Savior and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
3. EPs teach the glorious, personal return of Jesus Christ at the end of history to judge the world.
4. EPs insist that at his first advent Jesus, the Son of God, came as the Messianic or Mediatorial King and established His saving Kingdom among men on earth. Citing Philippians 2, Acts 2, Ephesians 1, Hebrews 1, and a host of other Biblical texts, William Symington wrote these Words in his study, Messiah the Prince, or, The Mediatorial Dominion of Jesus Christ: "Christ's appointment [to the kingly office] was still farther intimated by his actual investiture with regal power at and after his resurrection . . . . Christ's appointment gives him rightful claim to the implicit and conscientious obedience of every moral creature . . . . This appointment affords ample security for the overthrow of all Christ's enemies, and the ultimate establishment of his kingdom in the world." David Brown could hardly be clearer: "Christ's proper kingdom is already in being; commencing formally on His ascension to the right hand of God, and continuing unchanged, both in character and form, till the final judgment."
5. EPs are painfully aware that those who belong to Christ -- the church -- are appointed to suffering in this world, and will inevitably undergo persecution and affliction, in following their Savior and King. Listen again to Symington: "The members of the church have many enemies. The devil, the world, and the flesh, are in league against them. They wrestle not only against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickednesses in high places. They are required to assume the character, equipments, and attitude of soldiers..... Satan, the chief and leader of these enemies, exasperated at his overthrow, makes a desperate effort to regain his lost dominion over them; and although he cannot succeed, he does much to annoy such as have been rescued from his grasp." Charles Hodge commented upon 2 Corinthians 4 that Paul there "compares himself to a combatant, first hardly pressed, then hemmed in, then pursued, then actually cast down. This was not an occasional experience, but his life was like that of Christ, an uninterrupted succession of indignities and suffering.... We constantly illustrate in our person the sufferings of Christ. We are treated as he was treated; neglected, defamed, despised, maltreated...."
6. EPs believe that the gospel is to be preached to all nations by the church prior to the second advent of Christ, eventually bringing worldwide conversion, and that this is the church's calling from God. Charles Hodge taught: "The first great event which is to precede the second coming of Christ, is the universal proclamation of the Gospel.... The conversion of the Gentile world is the work assigned the Church under the present dispensation." B. B. Warfield argued that "precisely what the risen Lord, who has been made head over all things for his church, is doing through these years that stretch between his first and second comings, is conquering the world to himself; and the world is to be nothing less than a converted world.... All conflict, then, will be over, the conquest of the world will be complete, before Jesus returns to earth."
7. EPism maintains that the victorious advance of Christ's kingdom in the world will take place in terms of the present, peaceful and Spiritual power of the gospel rather than through a radically different principle of operation, namely Christ's physical presence on earth using violence to subdue opposition. A. A. Hodge put it this way: "The Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, clearly reveal that the gospel is to exercise an influence over all branches of the human family, immeasurably more extensive and more thoroughly transforming than any it has ever realized in time past. This end is to be gradually attained through the spiritual presence of Christ in the ordinary dispensation of Providence, and ministrations of the church." Charles Hodge insisted that "There is no intimation in the New Testament that the work of converting the world is to be effected by any other means than those now in use.... It is to dishounour [sic, sl] the Gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit, to suppose that they are inadequate to the accomplishment of this work."
8. EPism believes that with the power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel, in gradual stages of growth, the preponderance of men and nations will submit to Christ at some time in the future. B. B. Warfield drew this generalization: "the nature of the whole dispensation in which we are living, and which stretches from the First to the Second Advent, [is] a period of advancing conquest on the part of Christ.... The prophecy [of Romans 11] promises the universal Christianization of the world." Elsewhere he wrote: "If you wish, as you lift your eyes to the far horizon of the future, to see looming on the edge of time the glory of a saved world, you can find warrant for so great a vision only in the high principles that it is God and God alone who saves men, that all their salvation is from him, and that in his own good time and way he will bring the world in its entirety to the feet of him whom he has not hesitated to present to our adoring love not merely as Savior of our souls, but as the Savior of the world.... The redemption of the world is similarly a process. It, too, has stages; it, too, advances only gradually to its completion...."
9. EPists do not hold that each and every individual on earth will someday be saved, but that at some future time the vast majority will; in Christ's wheat field there will always be found some tares, up until the final harvest in judgment. Charles Hodge taught that "it is not to be inferred from this [Biblical promise of Gentile and Jewish conversion] that either all the heathen or all the Jews are to become true Christians. In many cases the conversion may be merely nominal. There will probably enough remain unchanged in heart to be the germ of that persecuting power which shall bring about those days of tribulation which the Bible seems to teach are to immediately precede the coming of the Lord."
10. EPism teaches that there will be a final apostasy or falling away just prior to the return of Christ in judgment on the world. Interpreting Revelation 20, A. A. Hodge wrote: "Christ has in reserve for his church a period of universal expansion and of pre-eminent spiritual prosperity, when the spirit and character of the "nobel army of martyrs" shall be reproduced again in the great body of God's people in an unprecedented triumph of their cause, and in the overthrow of that of their enemies, receive judgment over their foes and reign in the earth; while the party of Satan, 'the rest of the dead,' shall not flourish again until the thousand years be ended, when it shall prevail again for a little season." Charles Hodge held that "The great truth set forth in these prophesies is, that there was future ... a great apostasy in the Church; that this apostasy would be Anti-christian (or Antichrist), ally itself with the world and become a great persecuting power... [which will] be over taken with a final destruction when the Lord comes."
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