postmillennialism, premillennialism, amillennialism - your stance?

[Reformed Covenanter]

Because certain things must be fulfilled before His second coming, therefore, we pray that these things would take place so that He would hasten the time of His second coming.

A postmil, then, does not pray for the hastening of 'the time of His second coming', but for the hastening of the dawn of the millennium.

An amil can't do this as he must hope for Christ's second coming prior to the fulfillment of these aforementioned things.

What 'aforementioned' things? The destruction of Satan? What?

I believe that we are in the millennium now. It stretches from 70 AD to Satan's little season - which, I believe, is a revolt against Christendom.

The aforementioned things include the calling of the Jews and the fulness of the Gentiles being brought into Christ's kingdom - the Puritan interpretation of Romans 11 rules out an amillennial understanding of the WLC 191.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Daniel:

As Patrick mentioned, amillenialists do believe in victory. To continue to assert otherwise only causes confusion.

Personally I have a lot of respect for my postmillenial brethren though I find myself in disagreement.

I agree that you believe in victory in eternity, but I do not believe that amillennialism can possibly do justice to the victory of Christ's kingdom over the course of history. As I see it, amillennialism means that the wicked triumph in history while the godly are defeated until Christ returns - this is not the perspective of Psalm 1.

Amillenialism teaches that the wicked do not triumph in history no matter how many or how little there are or conversely how many godly there are or how little. Christ reigns now and we participate in His victory by faith; end of story.

But in amillennialism, the wicked, rather than the righteous, mostly have dominion in history, thus they are the earthly victors.

However, I think we better just agree to differ as we are walking round in circles.

 

[Coram Deo]

KMK,

How can you say that the 1689 Baptist Confession teaches a Amill Position?

Have you ever heard of Hansard Knollys, Pastor of Broken Wharf Church, London? His name is FIRST among the SIGNATORIES of the 1689 Baptist Confession and played a really large role in the Confession and if my memory serves me right the 1689 Confession and the General Assembly was convened at his church at Broken Wharf and the Confession signed there in 1689...

He was Clearly Historic (Covenantal) PreMillennial and NOT AMill...

Let me quote from him out of An Exposition of the Book of Revelation, 1688....

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

By [thrones] here we are to understand the kingdom and dominion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of his suffering, conquering and overcoming saints, (Rev. 11:15; Dan. 7:27; Matthew 19:28; Rev. 3:21 and 12:11). [And judgment was given unto them.] That is, to the righteous, (Ezek. 23:45) to the saints, (1 Cor. 6:2–3) [And I saw the souls (animas, not the bodies) of them that were beheaded,] that is, suffered death [for the witness of Jesus,] (Rev. 6:9–11 and 11:7) and for the Word of God, the holy scripture; [And which had not worshipped the beast:] that is, had not taken the oath of supremacy to the beast; [neither to his image:] popish kings, as head of the church, are refused to swear away the headship of our Lord Jesus Christ, (Col. 1:18) [Neither had received his mark in their foreheads or in their hands.] See chapter 13 vv. 16,17 [And they lived and reigned with Christ these thousand years.] (Rom. 8:17–18, 2 Tim. 2:11–12).

5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

By [the rest of the dead,] here we may understand (per antithesin, and in contradistinction to them that had been killed, martyred, and slain; into whom the spirit of life from God had again entered) all those dead souls, who had worshipped the beast and his image, and had received his mark, whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, [until these thousand years were finished, (or ended.) This is the first resurrection.] That is, the raising of the slain witnesses, (Rev. 11:7–11). See the exposition thereof, (v. 6). Five things are here said of this first resurrection, viz. first, they are holy, that is, sanctified persons, who lived godly in Christ Jesus, in times of persecution, (2 Tim. 3:12). Secondly, they are blessed, (Matthew 5:8) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly things, in Christ Jesus, (Eph. 1:3). Thirdly, [The second death hath no power over them.] They have all escaped the damnation of Hell, (Rom. 8:1–2, vv. 14, 15 of this chapter).

7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the numbers of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of Heaven, and devoured them.

10. And the devil that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

[These thousand years being expired, Satan shall be loosed,] and his instruments permitted, by his deceiving the nations, (v. 8 called Gog and Magog) to gather together, from east, west, north and south, [And to compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:] i.e., the new Jerusalem, and the general assembly and church of God, (Heb. 12:22–23 and Rev. 21:2–3) [And fire came down from God, out of Heaven, and devoured them.] (2 Thess. 1:5–6) as it did (Ezek. 39:6) verse 10 declares the final doom of the devil. [And the devil that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the false beast and the prophets are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.]

11. And I saw a great white Throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away, and there was found no place for them.

Here John had a vision and revelation, of the Day of judgment, (Jude v. 6 and Heb. 6:2) [I saw a great white throne;] which signifies the glory and majesty of our Lord Jesus Christ at his second coming, (Heb. 9:28) which will be with power and great glory, (Matthew 24:30) then we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ, (Rom. 14:10–12 and 2 Cor. 5:10) whom John saw sit upon the white Throne; [From whose face the earth and the heavens fled away.] That is, they were dissolved, (2 Pet. 3:4–13) [And there was found no place for them:] for they must give place unto the new heaven, and the new earth, (Rev. 21:1).

12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the Books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.

The throne being placed, and the judge being set on the throne, John [saw the dead, small and great stand before God]. That is, Jesus Christ, God-Man, (Acts 17:31) [And the books were opened] by these books we are to understand the bible, the holy scripture of truth, God’s statute book; that is, the books of the Old and New Testament, (Rom. 2:12–16) [And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.] that is, of election unto salvation, (Phil. 4:3) [And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.] (2 Cor. 5:10) whereby is revealed the just and righteous proceedings of Jesus Christ in judgment; for the wicked shall receive their reward, according to their evil deeds; and the righteous shall receive their reward of grace, as God hath promised them, according to their good deeds, (Matt. 25:34–40) but not for them.

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
By sea, death, and hell, here we are to understand the places where the bodies and souls of the dead were held and kept until this day of judgment: [And they were judged every man according to their works.] that is, according to their sinful thoughts, words, and deeds, (Jude vv. 6–15).
[Verse 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.] this lake of fire is that Gehenna, into which the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, were cast. See v. 10 and Matthew 25:31–46.

15. And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life, was cast into the lake of fire.

By [the Book of Life,] we are to understand God’s election unto everlasting salvation, or eternal life and glory; there is a remnant according to the election of grace, (Rom. 11:5, Rom. 8:30, and Eph. 1:3–6). Those that were [not found written in the Book of Life,] are all the non-elect, viz. wicked and ungodly persons; the workers of iniquity, who have lived in the world without God and Christ, and died in their sins; viz. all impenitent unbelievers, that obey not the gospel, (2 Thess. 1:6–10).

The confession does not speak of a future millenial kingdom. Therefore, it teaches a 'realized' millennium by defalt!

How's that?

 

[KMK]

I believe that we are in the millennium now. It stretches from 70 AD to Satan's little season - which, I believe, is a revolt against Christendom.

According to the chart on the OP, what you believe is called 'amillenialism'.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

BTW, amillenialism sees eternity as part of history so all of history leads up to final judgment and new creation.

So long as Christ has a human body, history will continue forever. Every act of regeneration, and every work of sanctification in believers and the church, is a victory for King Jesus in the present course of history. Every time a sinner is snatched from the grasp of the devil, Christ wins. It all goes back to how you define "victory."

 

[KMK]

KMK,

How can you say that the 1689 Baptist Confession teaches a Amill Position?

Have you ever heard of Hansard Knollys, Pastor of Broken Wharf Church, London? His name is FIRST among the SIGNATORIES of the 1689 Baptist Confession and played a really large role in the Confession and if my memory serves me right the 1689 Confession and the General Assembly was convened at his church at Broken Wharf and the Confession signed there in 1689...

He was Clearly Historic (Covenantal) PreMillennial and NOT AMill...

Let me quote from him out of An Exposition of the Book of Revelation, 1688....

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

By [thrones] here we are to understand the kingdom and dominion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of his suffering, conquering and overcoming saints, (Rev. 11:15; Dan. 7:27; Matthew 19:28; Rev. 3:21 and 12:11). [And judgment was given unto them.] That is, to the righteous, (Ezek. 23:45) to the saints, (1 Cor. 6:2–3) [And I saw the souls (animas, not the bodies) of them that were beheaded,] that is, suffered death [for the witness of Jesus,] (Rev. 6:9–11 and 11:7) and for the Word of God, the holy scripture; [And which had not worshipped the beast:] that is, had not taken the oath of supremacy to the beast; [neither to his image:] popish kings, as head of the church, are refused to swear away the headship of our Lord Jesus Christ, (Col. 1:18) [Neither had received his mark in their foreheads or in their hands.] See chapter 13 vv. 16,17 [And they lived and reigned with Christ these thousand years.] (Rom. 8:17–18, 2 Tim. 2:11–12).

5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

By [the rest of the dead,] here we may understand (per antithesin, and in contradistinction to them that had been killed, martyred, and slain; into whom the spirit of life from God had again entered) all those dead souls, who had worshipped the beast and his image, and had received his mark, whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, [until these thousand years were finished, (or ended.) This is the first resurrection.] That is, the raising of the slain witnesses, (Rev. 11:7–11). See the exposition thereof, (v. 6). Five things are here said of this first resurrection, viz. first, they are holy, that is, sanctified persons, who lived godly in Christ Jesus, in times of persecution, (2 Tim. 3:12). Secondly, they are blessed, (Matthew 5:8) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly things, in Christ Jesus, (Eph. 1:3). Thirdly, [The second death hath no power over them.] They have all escaped the damnation of Hell, (Rom. 8:1–2, vv. 14, 15 of this chapter).

7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the numbers of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of Heaven, and devoured them.

10. And the devil that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

[These thousand years being expired, Satan shall be loosed,] and his instruments permitted, by his deceiving the nations, (v. 8 called Gog and Magog) to gather together, from east, west, north and south, [And to compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:] i.e., the new Jerusalem, and the general assembly and church of God, (Heb. 12:22–23 and Rev. 21:2–3) [And fire came down from God, out of Heaven, and devoured them.] (2 Thess. 1:5–6) as it did (Ezek. 39:6) verse 10 declares the final doom of the devil. [And the devil that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the false beast and the prophets are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.]

11. And I saw a great white Throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away, and there was found no place for them.

Here John had a vision and revelation, of the Day of judgment, (Jude v. 6 and Heb. 6:2) [I saw a great white throne;] which signifies the glory and majesty of our Lord Jesus Christ at his second coming, (Heb. 9:28) which will be with power and great glory, (Matthew 24:30) then we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ, (Rom. 14:10–12 and 2 Cor. 5:10) whom John saw sit upon the white Throne; [From whose face the earth and the heavens fled away.] That is, they were dissolved, (2 Pet. 3:4–13) [And there was found no place for them:] for they must give place unto the new heaven, and the new earth, (Rev. 21:1).

12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the Books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.

The throne being placed, and the judge being set on the throne, John [saw the dead, small and great stand before God]. That is, Jesus Christ, God-Man, (Acts 17:31) [And the books were opened] by these books we are to understand the bible, the holy scripture of truth, God’s statute book; that is, the books of the Old and New Testament, (Rom. 2:12–16) [And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.] that is, of election unto salvation, (Phil. 4:3) [And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.] (2 Cor. 5:10) whereby is revealed the just and righteous proceedings of Jesus Christ in judgment; for the wicked shall receive their reward, according to their evil deeds; and the righteous shall receive their reward of grace, as God hath promised them, according to their good deeds, (Matt. 25:34–40) but not for them.

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
By sea, death, and hell, here we are to understand the places where the bodies and souls of the dead were held and kept until this day of judgment: [And they were judged every man according to their works.] that is, according to their sinful thoughts, words, and deeds, (Jude vv. 6–15).
[Verse 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.] this lake of fire is that Gehenna, into which the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, were cast. See v. 10 and Matthew 25:31–46.

15. And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life, was cast into the lake of fire.

By [the Book of Life,] we are to understand God’s election unto everlasting salvation, or eternal life and glory; there is a remnant according to the election of grace, (Rom. 11:5, Rom. 8:30, and Eph. 1:3–6). Those that were [not found written in the Book of Life,] are all the non-elect, viz. wicked and ungodly persons; the workers of iniquity, who have lived in the world without God and Christ, and died in their sins; viz. all impenitent unbelievers, that obey not the gospel, (2 Thess. 1:6–10).

This may have been his belief but he did not write it into the confession.

And this brings up an important point. Obviously the reformers did not see a millenial position as 'confessional'. The confession does not 'explicitely' teach a view on the millennium. Because of that, if one were to read the confession without any presuppositions, I think one would conclude that it was amil.

 

[Coram Deo]

The Majority of the Baptist Signers were PreMillennial but some were Amillennial. They did not see the Millennial issue to be a Confessional Issue and so left out the Issue as a secondary matter. The Confession is not predisposed toward AMillennial or PreMillennial or Any other Millennial inbetween. Just because a Millennial period is not mentioned in the Confession does not make it bent toward Amillennial... And even though the Confession makes no refer to a Millennial, just by the fact that the Majority of the Pastor Signers were Premillennial does give a good defense against a AMillennial Bent in the Confession. At the very least the Writers of the Confession and Those Premillennial Brethren Signers were being gracious to the minority AMillennial Group who were present....

I might also add that in Addition to Knollys, William Kifflin, Ben Keach and many others were the Premillennial Side of the General Assembly...

Later 1689 Confessional Pastors that were(Correction: Covenantal) PreMillennial include John Gill, and Charles Spurgeon.

KMK,

How can you say that the 1689 Baptist Confession teaches a Amill Position?

Have you ever heard of Hansard Knollys, Pastor of Broken Wharf Church, London? His name is FIRST among the SIGNATORIES of the 1689 Baptist Confession and played a really large role in the Confession and if my memory serves me right the 1689 Confession and the General Assembly was convened at his church at Broken Wharf and the Confession signed there in 1689...

He was Clearly Historic (Covenantal) PreMillennial and NOT AMill...

Let me quote from him out of An Exposition of the Book of Revelation, 1688....

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

By [thrones] here we are to understand the kingdom and dominion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of his suffering, conquering and overcoming saints, (Rev. 11:15; Dan. 7:27; Matthew 19:28; Rev. 3:21 and 12:11). [And judgment was given unto them.] That is, to the righteous, (Ezek. 23:45) to the saints, (1 Cor. 6:2–3) [And I saw the souls (animas, not the bodies) of them that were beheaded,] that is, suffered death [for the witness of Jesus,] (Rev. 6:9–11 and 11:7) and for the Word of God, the holy scripture; [And which had not worshipped the beast:] that is, had not taken the oath of supremacy to the beast; [neither to his image:] popish kings, as head of the church, are refused to swear away the headship of our Lord Jesus Christ, (Col. 1:18) [Neither had received his mark in their foreheads or in their hands.] See chapter 13 vv. 16,17 [And they lived and reigned with Christ these thousand years.] (Rom. 8:17–18, 2 Tim. 2:11–12).

5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

By [the rest of the dead,] here we may understand (per antithesin, and in contradistinction to them that had been killed, martyred, and slain; into whom the spirit of life from God had again entered) all those dead souls, who had worshipped the beast and his image, and had received his mark, whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, [until these thousand years were finished, (or ended.) This is the first resurrection.] That is, the raising of the slain witnesses, (Rev. 11:7–11). See the exposition thereof, (v. 6). Five things are here said of this first resurrection, viz. first, they are holy, that is, sanctified persons, who lived godly in Christ Jesus, in times of persecution, (2 Tim. 3:12). Secondly, they are blessed, (Matthew 5:8) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly things, in Christ Jesus, (Eph. 1:3). Thirdly, [The second death hath no power over them.] They have all escaped the damnation of Hell, (Rom. 8:1–2, vv. 14, 15 of this chapter).

7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the numbers of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of Heaven, and devoured them.

10. And the devil that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

[These thousand years being expired, Satan shall be loosed,] and his instruments permitted, by his deceiving the nations, (v. 8 called Gog and Magog) to gather together, from east, west, north and south, [And to compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:] i.e., the new Jerusalem, and the general assembly and church of God, (Heb. 12:22–23 and Rev. 21:2–3) [And fire came down from God, out of Heaven, and devoured them.] (2 Thess. 1:5–6) as it did (Ezek. 39:6) verse 10 declares the final doom of the devil. [And the devil that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the false beast and the prophets are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.]

11. And I saw a great white Throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away, and there was found no place for them.

Here John had a vision and revelation, of the Day of judgment, (Jude v. 6 and Heb. 6:2) [I saw a great white throne;] which signifies the glory and majesty of our Lord Jesus Christ at his second coming, (Heb. 9:28) which will be with power and great glory, (Matthew 24:30) then we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ, (Rom. 14:10–12 and 2 Cor. 5:10) whom John saw sit upon the white Throne; [From whose face the earth and the heavens fled away.] That is, they were dissolved, (2 Pet. 3:4–13) [And there was found no place for them:] for they must give place unto the new heaven, and the new earth, (Rev. 21:1).

12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the Books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.

The throne being placed, and the judge being set on the throne, John [saw the dead, small and great stand before God]. That is, Jesus Christ, God-Man, (Acts 17:31) [And the books were opened] by these books we are to understand the bible, the holy scripture of truth, God’s statute book; that is, the books of the Old and New Testament, (Rom. 2:12–16) [And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.] that is, of election unto salvation, (Phil. 4:3) [And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.] (2 Cor. 5:10) whereby is revealed the just and righteous proceedings of Jesus Christ in judgment; for the wicked shall receive their reward, according to their evil deeds; and the righteous shall receive their reward of grace, as God hath promised them, according to their good deeds, (Matt. 25:34–40) but not for them.

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
By sea, death, and hell, here we are to understand the places where the bodies and souls of the dead were held and kept until this day of judgment: [And they were judged every man according to their works.] that is, according to their sinful thoughts, words, and deeds, (Jude vv. 6–15).
[Verse 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.] this lake of fire is that Gehenna, into which the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, were cast. See v. 10 and Matthew 25:31–46.

15. And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life, was cast into the lake of fire.

By [the Book of Life,] we are to understand God’s election unto everlasting salvation, or eternal life and glory; there is a remnant according to the election of grace, (Rom. 11:5, Rom. 8:30, and Eph. 1:3–6). Those that were [not found written in the Book of Life,] are all the non-elect, viz. wicked and ungodly persons; the workers of iniquity, who have lived in the world without God and Christ, and died in their sins; viz. all impenitent unbelievers, that obey not the gospel, (2 Thess. 1:6–10).

This may have been his belief but he did not write it into the confession.

And this brings up an important point. Obviously the reformers did not see a millenial position as 'confessional'. The confession does not 'explicitely' teach a view on the millennium. Because of that, if one were to read the confession without any presuppositions, I think one would conclude that it was amil.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I believe that we are in the millennium now. It stretches from 70 AD to Satan's little season - which, I believe, is a revolt against Christendom.

According to the chart on the OP, what you believe is called 'amillenialism'.

That is why I said the chart was not entirely accurate.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

BTW, amillenialism sees eternity as part of history so all of history leads up to final judgment and new creation.

So long as Christ has a human body, history will continue forever. Every act of regeneration, and every work of sanctification in believers and the church, is a victory for King Jesus in the present course of history. Every time a sinner is snatched from the grasp of the devil, Christ wins. It all goes back to how you define "victory."

When I am speaking of history, I am talking about what takes place before the consummation. Anyway, as we are not going to agree its best to leave it there for now.

 

[wsw201]

For an historical perspective on the various uses of the terms such as Postmillennialism, the following is a good paper prepared by Kim Riddlebarger on the view of Princeton and and the development of various millinial positions especially in the US. Princeton and the Millennium

 

[Thomas2007]

According to the chart on the OP, what you believe is called 'amillenialism'.

That's because he is a schizomillienarian too. Seriously, though, years ago I repented of dispensational premillienialism and then began searching for the position I was going to take, I arrived first at historic premillienialism, and now lean most heavily to postmillienialism.

John Eliot's Christian Commonwealth had a big impact upon my thinking in these regards.

But I really don't know what the correct interpretation is. I came to the conclusion that many other good men held to different views and I was certainly no more godly nor sincere than they. But then I started thinking about the hold dispensationalism held on my conscience and how it governed my behavior in a very negative way robbing me of much good works caused me to approach it from a different perspective.

The reason is that one's view of the prophetic future extrapolated from God's proclamation does affect your behavior in the present, so since postmillienialism tended to motivate me to action and carrying out my faith in a positive reforming way, that is the view I lean toward. I don't want to be found like the Jews of old and stuck to a particular interpretation of the future whereby you can't interpret the present and govern your behavior consistent with the word of God that we can all agree on.

God predestinates the future and the preacher declares that He requires what is past, so in some way we all have a part in this, it's just that if the Lord should come in my lifetime I want to be found working for Him, and if not, I want to have a legacy of good works left behind me. I just want to do something positive whereby God can use me in whatever small way to advance His Kingdom.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I actually was going to start a thread on this myself, but panta beat me to it. My options were going to be:

Amillennial?

Premillennial?

Postmillennial?

A pre-posterous question (Corrie Ten Boom)?

 

[Puritan Sailor]

I think its interesting how the postmils here become "amils" in the Politics Forum. They seem to have lost their optimism there....

 

[Poimen]

But in amillennialism, the wicked, rather than the righteous, mostly have dominion in history, thus they are the earthly victors.

However, I think we better just agree to differ as we are walking round in circles.

Daniel:

Perhaps it is my ego that must keep this conversation going but I think it might be helpful for people to know that amillenialism has little or nothing to do with who might have dominion at one time or through the whole thrust of history.

For the wicked do prosper (Psalm 73:3; James 5:7-8). And so for a time (a short time in the context of eternity) we must be patient and await the return of the Lord to right all wrongs.

Meanwhile I will simply be keeping busy "aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands" (1 Thessalonians 4:11) and await the return of Christ. He is sovereign; His will is done.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

But in amillennialism, the wicked, rather than the righteous, mostly have dominion in history, thus they are the earthly victors.

However, I think we better just agree to differ as we are walking round in circles.

Daniel:

Perhaps it is my ego that must keep this conversation going but I think it might be helpful for people to know that amillenialism has little or nothing to do with who might have dominion at one time or through the whole thrust of history.

For the wicked do prosper (Psalm 73:3; James 5:7-8). And so for a time (a short time in the context of eternity) we must be patient and await the return of the Lord to right all wrongs.

Meanwhile I will simply be keeping busy "aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands" (1 Thessalonians 4:11) and await the return of Christ. He is sovereign; His will is done.

Psalm 73 teaches that the wicked will be defeated, and Psalm 1 teaches that it is the righteous that prosper in history. Christ is sovereign, and so His will is to be done in heaven as it is on earth. Postmillennialist are patient (or at least they should be) hence they work for long term societal reformation knowing that, over-the-course of history, their labour's will not be in vain - despite present appearances to the contrary.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I think its interesting how the postmils here become "amils" in the Politics Forum. They seem to have lost their optimism there....

Yeah, but that's only in the short-term, give us 40,000 years or so, then get back to me.

 

[danmpem]

When you all speak of amills (or others?) as being "historic idealists", what exactly do you mean? Does this have to do with the already/not yet questions?

 

[RamistThomist]

When you all speak of amills (or others?) as being "historic idealists", what exactly do you mean? Does this have to do with the already/not yet questions?

Technically, they shouldn't label "historic idealists," since idealism downplays "particular incidents" ala Hamstra.

If you assume that amillennialism is that of the traditional reformation, then the amills then would be historicists (prophecy still unfolding, papacy = antichrist, etc).

If speak of the new amillennialist (see how there is no such thing as an unbroken millennial position) like Riddlebarger or Poythress, then they are an idealist (Revelation is not about history, but pictures).

And all millennial positions utilize the "already/not yet" paradigm. The amillennialist simply uses it to answer every question.

 

[KMK]

The Majority of the Baptist Signers were PreMillennial but some were Amillennial. They did not see the Millennial issue to be a Confessional Issue and so left out the Issue as a secondary matter.

And I agree with their decision!

The Confession is not predisposed toward AMillennial or PreMillennial or Any other Millennial inbetween. Just because a Millennial period is not mentioned in the Confession does not make it bent toward Amillennial...

I disagree. Whether they intended to or not, the absence of any declaration concerning a future, literal millennium, leaves the confession with a 'bent' toward a realized millennium.

But, that said, after discovering Mr. Ritchie's strange view which he calls 'postmil' I am persuaded that I do not understand the labels that are being used in this thread any longer. It is probably reckless of me to continue in the discussion.

 

[Coram Deo]

The Confession can not be understood apart from the authors who wrote the confession and who endorsed it regardless if they absenced the any declaration of a millennial period.

Reading the Confession with presupposition does not work here just like reading the Constitution with presupposition. They both must be read with the original intent of the authors and the matter remains that the majority of 1689 Signers were Premillennial but left out any reference to a millennial period including a realized millennialism (A Millennialism) because it is not a major dividing issue.. It does not in any way predisposed the confession toward AMillennial.

It is like reading the Constitution without the original intent of the authors which is what is happening right now with the Supreme Court and the rest of the country....

The Confession is not predisposed toward AMillennial or PreMillennial or Any other Millennial inbetween. Just because a Millennial period is not mentioned in the Confession does not make it bent toward Amillennial...

I disagree. Whether they intended to or not, the absence of any declaration concerning a future, literal millennium, leaves the confession with a 'bent' toward a realized millennium.

But, that said, after discovering Mr. Ritchie's strange view which he calls 'postmil' I am persuaded that I do not understand the labels that are being used in this thread any longer. It is probably reckless of me to continue in the discussion.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

The Majority of the Baptist Signers were PreMillennial but some were Amillennial. They did not see the Millennial issue to be a Confessional Issue and so left out the Issue as a secondary matter.

And I agree with their decision!

The Confession is not predisposed toward AMillennial or PreMillennial or Any other Millennial inbetween. Just because a Millennial period is not mentioned in the Confession does not make it bent toward Amillennial...

I disagree. Whether they intended to or not, the absence of any declaration concerning a future, literal millennium, leaves the confession with a 'bent' toward a realized millennium.

But, that said, after discovering Mr. Ritchie's strange view which he calls 'postmil' I am persuaded that I do not understand the labels that are being used in this thread any longer. It is probably reckless of me to continue in the discussion.

I would just add that post-millennialism refers to the view that Christ will return after the millennium rather than before it, so although I do not agree with "golden age" postmillennialism, I am still a post-millennialist.

 

[KMK]

The Confession can not be understood apart from the authors who wrote the confession and who endorsed it regardless if they absenced the any declaration of a millennial period.

I agree.

Reading the Confession with presupposition does not work here just like reading the Constitution with presupposition. They both must be read with the original intent of the authors and the matter remains that the majority of 1689 Signers were Premillennial but left out any reference to a millennial period including a realized millennialism (A Millennialism) because it is not a major dividing issue..

I agree.

It does not in any way predisposed the confession toward AMillennial.

I disagree for the reasons I have stated in previous posts.

Here is my point. All three Millenial views agree in the already/not yet kingdom which will consumate with a future return of the Lord in judgment. By leaving out the things they disagree on (a literal earthly millennium) the confession is left with an already/not yet kingdom which shall be consummated by a future return of the Lord in judgment, which is basically Amillenialism.

I agree that the divines were not in agreement, but by leaving out those things of which they disagree, they have, by default, a document which smacks of amillenialism.

But as I have stated before, my understanding of these labels may be too sophomoric.

 

[Coram Deo]

I disagree for reasons already stated..

I disagree for the reasons I have stated in previous posts.

Here is my point. All three Millenial views agree in the already/not yet kingdom which will consumate with a future return of the Lord in judgment. By leaving out the things they disagree on (a literal earthly millennium) the confession is left with an already/not yet kingdom which shall be consummated by a future return of the Lord in judgment, which is basically Amillenialism.

I agree that the divines were not in agreement, but by leaving out those things of which they disagree, they have, by default, a document which smacks of amillenialism.

 

[LadyCalvinist]

All I can say is: I've peaked at the end and I know who wins.

Seriously, I'm amillennialist who would be overjoyed if the postmils were right.

 

[KMK]

All I can say is: I've peaked at the end and I know who wins.

Seriously, I'm amillennialist who would be overjoyed if the postmils were right.

I could say the same thing and include the pretribbers! I wouldn't mind a rapture. (as long as I got to keep my clothes on)

 

[Puritan Sailor]

But, that said, after discovering Mr. Ritchie's strange view which he calls 'postmil' I am persuaded that I do not understand the labels that are being used in this thread any longer. It is probably reckless of me to continue in the discussion.

The Golden Age view you are thinking of started to die out around 1900. It was hijacked by the liberals to fuel their socialism. Warfield articulated something similar to what Daniel has argued for. It is essentailly the same as Amil (as promoted by Vos) as far as the timing of the millennium, but puts the ideals of the old golden age view more into a gradual transformation concept in the milllenium. So the only difference between the Warfeild- type Postmil and the Amil is what constitutes "progress" and "victory" during the millennium.

So by definition it is still Postmil because Christ returns after the millennium. But that also makes Amil a "postmil" view too. The only difference again is how "victory" is defined. So in reality there are only two types of eschatology, Postmil and Premil, with all their variations.

 

[caddy]

This may or may not have been posted already, but even if it has it is worth Reposting.

A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism

This piece by Prof. David J. Engelsma is wonderful.

 

[RamistThomist]

This may or may not have been posted already, but even if it has it is worth Reposting.

A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism

This piece by Prof. David J. Engelsma is wonderful.

I hope it is better than his book on the Spiritual Kingdom.

 

[KMK]

But, that said, after discovering Mr. Ritchie's strange view which he calls 'postmil' I am persuaded that I do not understand the labels that are being used in this thread any longer. It is probably reckless of me to continue in the discussion.

The Golden Age view you are thinking of started to die out around 1900. It was hijacked by the liberals to fuel their socialism. Warfield articulated something similar to what Daniel has argued for. It is essentailly the same as Amil (as promoted by Vos) as far as the timing of the millennium, but puts the ideals of the old golden age view more into a gradual transformation concept in the milllenium. So the only difference between the Warfeild- type Postmil and the Amil is what constitutes "progress" and "victory" during the millennium.

So by definition it is still Postmil because Christ returns after the millennium. But that also makes Amil a "postmil" view too. The only difference again is how "victory" is defined. So in reality there are only two types of eschatology, Postmil and Premil, with all their variations.

If that is the case, then I may be more posttrib than I thought! Praise God! I always wanted to be a posttribber! Now I can be both.

 

[caddy]

This may or may not have been posted already, but even if it has it is worth Reposting.

A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism

This piece by Prof. David J. Engelsma is wonderful.

I hope it is better than his book on the Spiritual Kingdom.

Did not read it. Want to elaborate?