postmillennialism, premillennialism, amillennialism - your stance?

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by panta dokimazete, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. Post-Tribulational Premillennialism

    6.9%
  2. Pre-Tribulational (Dispensational) Premillennialism

    2.1%
  3. Postmillennialism

    25.7%
  4. Amillennialism

    52.8%
  5. Undecided

    11.8%
  6. Other - please elaborate

    0.7%
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  1. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    I have tried to stay fairly clear of the controversy surrounding these issues as I believe it to be a "milk teaching" issue (see Heb 6:1-2) - that being said, I have recently been skimming articles, etc to get a better "feel" for the various positions.

    On wiki I saw this graphic that I thought seemed to be a very good high-level summary of the stances.

    [​IMG]

    I'd like to use these categories to get insight into the views on the PB.

    I lean toward amillennial, so that is what I am choosing, but I am not 100% convinced.

    As folks are willing, I'd also like to get a few links that help clarify the various positions.

    I have made the poll public, because I am interested in who holds to the various positions.
     
  2. Blue Tick

    Blue Tick Puritan Board Graduate

    Tentatively amillennial. I would like to study more about postmillennialism.
     
  3. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    The postmillenial bit on the picture is not 100% accurate; there are different views among postmils about what the millennium is:

    1. Some hold its a golden-age within the NT, as is represented in the graphic.

    2. Some hold its the whole NT age, as with Amils.

    3. Some hold its from 70 AD until a rebellion against Christendom "Satan's little season".

    The main difference between amillennial and postmillennials is the latter believes that the gospel will advance much more in the NT age.
     
  4. toddpedlar

    toddpedlar Iron Dramatist Staff Member


    What Daniel said. ;)
     
  5. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    which would make them amills, right?

    This is the x-preterist position? If so, what is x, please?

    can you expand a little more on this or give a link?
     
  6. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    or - even better - can you take the graphic and modify it to reflect any additional stance(s)?

    I am really interested in getting a good representative view.
     
  7. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    :ditto:
     
  8. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    2. No it would not make them amils as they believe in the world-wide advance of the gospel and in the Christianization of societies, which is not the traditional amil view. Moreover, postmillennialism literally means "after the millennium", so even if they share the same view as the amils on the duration of the millennium, they are still postmillennial as they believe Christ returns after the millennium.

    3. Some partial preterists would hold this view, others would not.

    Amillennialism has traditionally believed that there will not be any extensive conversion to Christ, or a world wide Christianization of culture and society. Some optimistic amils like Cornelius Venema would be closer to postmillennialits in this regard. While postmillennialists believe that, over the course of history, the majority of people will be converted, and the majority of nations will be Christian. In other words, they believe Christ has the victory in history.
     
  9. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Sorry, that is beyond my capabilities. :violin:
     
  10. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    I voted amil because that is what the confession teaches.
     
  11. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Not the Westminster Standards, read WLC Q&A 191.
     
  12. Stephen

    Stephen Puritan Board Junior

    Yes, Daniel is right the WCoF does not teach an amillennial position.
     
  13. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Indeed, amillennialism is more of a 20th century teaching; although some would say that Augustine held it.
     
  14. turmeric

    turmeric Megerator

    Uh-oh!
     
  15. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    :popcorn: (because I know this will be an interesting, yet irenic exchange of ideas... :))
     
  16. ReformedReidian

    ReformedReidian Puritan Board Doctor

    historic premil.
     
  17. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    Question 191: What do we pray for in the second petition?

    Answer: In the second petition (which is, Thy kingdom come), acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.
     
  18. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Why isn't there a "Boo" button to correspond to "Thanks"? ;) Just kidding.
     
  19. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    :lol: That is a great idea!
     
  20. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor

  21. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Yes, sorry I forgot that Luther :luther: et al was amillennial; thanks for the link. Though the views of the Reformed were overwhelmingly postmillennial prior to the 20th century.
     
  22. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    There is no need to say "Uh-oh". Q&A 191 is the second petition of the Lord's Prayer. Amils can agree with and pray this petition as well as posties. Therefore, when the confession is taken as a whole (as it should since it relates a system of doctrine) the Standards do teach amil as it is the historic position of the church.

    But there is nowhere in the Standards that teach that there will be a "Golden Age" or a Christianizing of all the nations. These concepts were mostly popularized in the US with Jonathan Edwards (he was a Golden Ager) who also believed that the Jews would be converted (Rom 11) to usher in the Golden Age. It became even more popular when Princeton caught on to it. Prior to Edwards, the idea of modern day postmillinialism was foriegn to the church.
     
  23. AV1611

    AV1611 Puritan Board Senior

    I can see how a Postmillennialist could interpret this in their own way but I would not say that it is inherently Postmillennial.
     
  24. Bygracealone

    Bygracealone Puritan Board Sophomore

    I would agree that all of God's people can pray this petition of the Lord's Prayer.

    I don't think it's fair to say that Amil is the historic position of the Church nor THE teaching of our standards and I'm quite certain Edwards wasn't the first one to propagate the position of the nations coming under the Kingship of Christ (this has been something long held by the Covenanters--Read Symington's "Messiah the Prince"). Remember, one does not need to hold to a "Golden Age" to be Postmil and even if one does, it doesn't have to happen after the conversion of the Jews (Rom. 11). I believe the same thing about Rom. 11, but I'm not persuaded that such a conversion will usher in a Golden Age. Instead, I believe that will usher in Christ's Second Coming and Judgment. The overall emphasis (at least according to the flavor I hold to) has to do with the spread of the Gospel and its influence upon the world.

    Actually, the passages of Scripture that pushed me from Amil to Postmil were the parables of the mustard seed and the parable of the leaven (along with a host of others).
     
  25. Bygracealone

    Bygracealone Puritan Board Sophomore

    Ken, when you refer to the confession here, would that be the Baptist Confession? Just curious...
     
  26. JBaldwin

    JBaldwin Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I voted Amillennialism, because I lean in that direction. Having been drilled in the pre-trib view all through my childhood, teen years, and early adulthood, I still have trouble sorting through it all. As I read through Scripture and take it for what it says, amillennialism seems to make the most sense.
     
  27. DMcFadden

    DMcFadden Moderator Staff Member

    Historic premil. If it was good enough for Jesus, the apostles, the early church . . . surely it must be good enough for me.

    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  28. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Read Iain Murray's book The Puritan Hope.
     
  29. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Moderator

    Interesting. They pushed me to Amil :)
     
  30. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Amils can pray for it in the expectation that their prayers will never be answered. How anyone can think that the Westminster Standards are amillennial is beyond me; read WLC 191, read the Puritans, read the Covenanters - postmilleniallism is the historic Reformed view. While I agree that the Westminster Standards do not necessarily require one to adhere to Edwards' golden-age postmillennialism - most modern postmills wouldn't fully go along with Edwards - the view that Christ's kingdom would have the victory in history, and that the majority of men and nations would be Christian, is the overwhelming Reformed position prior to the 20th century.
     
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