Poll: The Christian is required to give at least 10% of income

[ClayPot]

Given the debate here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f117/tithing-55525/, I figured it would be useful to do a more formal poll. Is the Christian MORALLY OBLIGATED to give AT LEAST 10% of his income to the local church? In other words, is a Christian if he doesn't give 10% or more of his income.

 

[Peairtach]

Depends. It's not so simple. But tithing is a principle that continues in the New Covenant.

Without tithing continuing as a guide in some sense, what guide do our carnal and partially sanctified wills have regarding weekly regular, normal, giving?

 

[Ivan]

No, more.

 

[Sarah]

I think we should give at least 10% to the local church, but it's not required.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Depends. It's not so simple. But tithing is a principle that continues in the New Covenant.

Not tithing. Giving "whatever you want" is part of the New Covenant.

Without tithing continuing as a guide in some sense, what guide do our carnal and partially sanctified wills have regarding weekly regular, normal, giving?

Gee I don't know, the Holy Spirit?

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

I thought we of the reformed variety, believed in an all powerful, sovereign God, who sanctifies his true believers, and caused them to walk in His way.

Imposing tithing does nothing; it is just a way to try to get the goats to act like sheep.

 

[baron]

I voted no but as stated it's not that simple to me. I think a christian should give cheerfully, as God has prospered him to meet the need of the church. At this time in my life I can not afford 10% but in the future I may be able to give 30% or more.

Example Our churh is small and we do not meet our budget every week, but I believe that if other's who can pick up the slack would, then we would be ok. I know some who think I gave my 10% leave me alone, knowing others in the church have no jobs, or income to meet their basic needs. So the Church suffers.

But to tell the truth I'm still having a problem with Romans 12:1-2.

 

[KaphLamedh]

I have to confess that I´m unsure. Both sides have gave good points for their view. Everything I own is gift from God and He has right to take away everything, so if I give back to God 10% what He has gave to me...

 

[Romans922]

In the New Covenant, we should give a lot more than 10%.

 

[Damon Rambo]

In the New Covenant, we should give a lot more than 10%.

If we want to. If not, we shouldn't.

 

[Tripel]

Imposing tithing does nothing; it is just a way to try to get the goats to act like sheep.

Really? Is that all the tithe is?

 

[au5t1n]

I chose unsure, but in practice I think lower than 10% is a really bad sign, and I think there is a reason the principle of 10% is established in the OT, from Abraham to Jacob and on into the Mosaic Covenant.

 

[he beholds]

I don't think it is required, but it is a good number to start with.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Imposing tithing does nothing; it is just a way to try to get the goats to act like sheep.

Really? Is that all the tithe is?

In the New Testament, yeah. Since Christians are nowhere told to tithe, but rather "give whatever" you want.

-----Added 11/18/2009 at 09:37:41 EST-----

I don't think it is required, but it is a good number to start with.

I have no problem with an individual saying " I have made 1000 dollars this month, and I want to give 100"


I do have a problem, when preachers go farther than the Bible, farther than Paul himself, and tell people "You should be giving a 'tithe' (tenth) of your income, minimum." This is nowhere stated in the New Testament, and is actually refuted, since people are simply told to give what they want.

Rather than trying to place the requirements of the law on their flock, Pastors should preach the whole counsel of God, practice church discipline etc. That way, the local Church will be filled with primarily sheep, who will "want" to give more. Then there will be no need to wring money out of goats.

 

[Romans922]

Depends. It's not so simple. But tithing is a principle that continues in the New Covenant.

Not tithing. Giving "whatever you want" is part of the New Covenant.

Without tithing continuing as a guide in some sense, what guide do our carnal and partially sanctified wills have regarding weekly regular, normal, giving?

Gee I don't know, the Holy Spirit?

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

I thought we of the reformed variety, believed in an all powerful, sovereign God, who sanctifies his true believers, and caused them to walk in His way.

Imposing tithing does nothing; it is just a way to try to get the goats to act like sheep.

There seems to be a great disconnect here between the OT and NT, like what we find in Dispensationalism. You should be looking over the whole counsel of God. Is the NT the sole authority? No. What does the OT say? Did tithing and giving end in the OT? No. What about in the NT?

-----Added 11/18/2009 at 10:12:27 EST-----

This should be looking at the heart, but what state is the heart in if you are questioning whether or not to give to God? What state is your heart in if you rebel and say I don't have to give to God, not if I don't want to?

The whole principle throughout Scripture is that you give your firstfruits, you give your tithe, you give your offering.

And since we have Christ in our hearts through His Spirit, we should want to give so much more than just a tithe. Like the woman who gave all she had with her two coins.

 

[MMasztal]

All we have belongs to the Lord. Whether it is our money, time or talent. Those who are led by the Spirit will give to the Lord's work from all they have.

And the Lord's work comprises more than just the local church.

 

[A.J.]

I voted unsure. But I think that the argument for tithing as a principle that continues in the New Covenant from Genesis 14:17-24 (Hebrews 7:1-2) seems strong In my humble opinion. Abraham's story with Melchizedek happened long before the time of Moses.

 

[ChariotsofFire]

Cain and Abel gave their first fruits to God. We have this example from the very beginning. Tithing is giving our first fruits to God. It was required of Abraham, and it is required of us. It is a moral law and binding.

The purpose of tithing is to put our trust in God and to realize that He is the one who gives us everything. It's not a matter of being able to afford it. In fact tithing is best for our spiritual growth when we think that we can't afford it.

 

[ClayPot]

No, more.

Clarified the poll. If you think that a Christian should give more than 10%, the answer should be yes since that is at least 10% by definition.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Depends. It's not so simple. But tithing is a principle that continues in the New Covenant.

Not tithing. Giving "whatever you want" is part of the New Covenant.

Without tithing continuing as a guide in some sense, what guide do our carnal and partially sanctified wills have regarding weekly regular, normal, giving?

Gee I don't know, the Holy Spirit?

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

I thought we of the reformed variety, believed in an all powerful, sovereign God, who sanctifies his true believers, and caused them to walk in His way.

Imposing tithing does nothing; it is just a way to try to get the goats to act like sheep.

There seems to be a great disconnect here between the OT and NT, like what we find in Dispensationalism.

I know you didn't. Thems fighting words!

You should be looking over the whole counsel of God. Is the NT the sole authority? No. What does the OT say? Did tithing and giving end in the OT? No. What about in the NT?

I am firmly Covenantal. However, that does not mean that the OT is applied in the same way in the context of the new. We must draw timeless principles from the Old Testament, and apply them in the light of the New. Tell me, do you still obey ALL of the Law?

The timeless principle, as Paul clearly shows us, is that we should WANT to give; not that their is some kind of minimum to give. Tell me, why do you not give 10 percent to the levitical priesthood? Do you still take 10 percent of your income every year, and have a big party with it? Do you give 3 1/3 percent to the poor?

The "whole counsel" of God, is that He has given us a new heart, so that we WANT to give; not that we are given some kind of minimum amount, that we can tick off like a laundry list.

-----Added 11/18/2009 at 10:12:27 EST-----

This should be looking at the heart, but what state is the heart in if you are questioning whether or not to give to God? What state is your heart in if you rebel and say I don't have to give to God, not if I don't want to?

Right: which means we should stop preaching tithing, which is not for Christians, and start preaching a change of heart, which will automatically lead to giving.

Preach that a "heart should WANT to give", rather than "We are required TO give."

The whole principle throughout Scripture is that you give your firstfruits, you give your tithe, you give your offering.

Not at all, at least in the threefold way you have presented. The OT principle is simply that we should want to give to God. Paul tells us the way to apply that, is to "give whatever you (with your new heart) want"

And since we have Christ in our hearts through His Spirit, we should want to give so much more than just a tithe. Like the woman who gave all she had with her two coins.

Yes we should want it. But if we do not want it, then it is a heart problem, not a problem of not applying the "tithe." We are commanded to give whatever we want. Not to tithe.

 

[Pergamum]

If one gives 10% does the 10% have to be towards one "local church'?

It seems like generosity is a command all throughout Scriptures, but many of the Proverbs seem to indicate outside-of-the church-building generosity being the norm as well.

 

[rbcbob]

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Can you tell me what you think this passage is saying?

Tell me, do you still obey ALL of the Law?

Well, of course not. Nor have we ever (so there's no still involved here) or any other man born to woman. Only Christ did. What does that have to do with endeavoring to keep the Commandments in all our thoughts, words, and deeds?

The timeless principle, as Paul clearly shows us, is that we should WANT to give; not that their is some kind of minimum to give. Tell me, why do you not give 10 percent to the levitical priesthood? Do you still take 10 percent of your income every year, and have a big party with it? Do you give 3 1/3 percent to the poor?

No, neither did Abram. But he still tithed.
Will? You must mean, of course, unless someone doesn't want to. And if they don't want to, then they shouldn't. That's the logical conclusion of your thesis on this matter.

Preach that a "heart should WANT to give", rather than "We are required TO give."

There's that moral imperative invoking should again. Sounds a lot like pressing a person a requirement to give something... but only if they want to (sort of takes the power out of should, no?).

Yes we should want it. But if we do not want it, then it is a heart problem, not a problem of not applying the "tithe." We are commanded to give whatever we want. Not to tithe.

And what if they never want to give? If giving is not required, and is purely voluntary, then how can you say it's a measure of one's sanctification, thus making it a binding thing? Look, I'm not so much stuck on calling these things tithe, but I do believe that giving is required. When Paul says to be a cheerful giver, I don't think he's saying, "But if you don't want to, please don't." He is saying, you should give much, and it should be given cheerfully. And if it's not, then you need to work on your cheerfulness of giving it, not simply give "what you want. Give more than you want, and do it cheerfully!" Just my

 

[Christusregnat]

If one gives 10% does the 10% have to be towards one "local church'?

The examples in Scripture are:

1. To the local Levite (in Moses)
2. To the temple (in the Gospels)
3. To the local church (in Paul)
4. To other churches within the catholic church, through the local church
5. Abraham to God's priest/king


What else would you say there is? Did I miss any?

Cheers,

 

[Damon Rambo]

And what if they never want to give?

Then I suggest that they have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they need to worry about the state of their souls, rather than the state of the Church's bank account.

There is a vital distinction between something that is required (giving is not), and something that is an automatic result of a change of heart, that WILL be done by a believer.

 

[rbcbob]

And what if they never want to give?

Then I suggest that they have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they need to worry about the state of their souls, rather than the state of the Church's bank account.

There is a vital distinction between something that is required (giving is not), and something that is an automatic result of a change of heart, that WILL be done by a believer.

Actually, I believe it is. The Reformed doctrine of Analogy of Faith would support the doctrine of required giving.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
2 Corinthians 9:7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.



2Co 9:7 - He hath purposed (proêirêtai). Perfect middle indicative of proaireomai, to choose beforehand, old verb, here only in N.T. Permanent purpose also. Not grudgingly (mê ek lupês). The use of mê rather than ou shows that the imperative poieitô (do) or didotô (give) is to be supplied. Not give as out of sorrow. Or of necessity (ê ex anagkês). As if it were like pulling eye-teeth. For God loveth a cheerful giver (hilaron gar dotên agapâi ho theos). Our word "hilarious" comes from hilaron which is from hilaos (propitious), an old and common adjective, only here in N.T. __ Robertson’s Word Pictures

 

[Romans922]

Preach that a "heart should WANT to give", rather than "We are required TO give."

Why? Why should a heart want to give? The only reason would be because it is a righteous thing to do, a godly thing to do, a holy thing to do? Otherwise, you yourself wouldn't have said a heart should want to give. But if that is the case, we are required to give. Because we are required to be holy, righteous, godly. In which case we should preach that all are required to give, and that our hearts should want to give.

It seems like you do not like 'duty', but you like the heart. Commendable but not entirely right. God commands us to love Him. We should love him (duty), but we should love Him with our hearts. Most definitely he wants our hearts, that's why He says He loves a cheerful giver. BUT that very statement declares that He wants a giver. There is a requirement, a duty, and it should be accompanied by the heart.

Like what I said before you are making a distinguishing the two, when they should be both/and. DUTY and HEART.


What I am saying is this: it is impossible to say that a changed heart will want to give, and yet giving is not a requirement. If a regenerated heart should want to give, than it is a requirement!

 

[Pergamum]

If one gives 10% does the 10% have to be towards one "local church'?

The examples in Scripture are:

1. To the local Levite (in Moses)
2. To the temple (in the Gospels)
3. To the local church (in Paul)
4. To other churches within the catholic church, through the local church
5. Abraham to God's priest/king


What else would you say there is? Did I miss any?

Cheers,

Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man's evil character is chiefly portrayed as being uncaring to the poor outside of his gate.



Also,
Matthew 5:42 “Give to everyone who asks of you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.”



Also,


He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker." Proverbs 17:5

"He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17

"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13

"A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9

"Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22

"A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3

"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27

"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7

"Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9

"She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20


These above examples do not require temple giving, but seem more naturally to mean to be generous on all occasions and in all locations. Not a religious act, but a disposition of character expressed in daily activity, which would not negate temple giving but would go far, far, far, far beyond it.

 

[au5t1n]

Good examples. You left out Jacob, though.

 

[Mushroom]

Wow. Such complication.

Do we or do we not believe that the preaching of the Gospel will have the effect upon the hearts of God's people that will move them to cheerfully give all that they can?

Sounds very much like we're wanting to trust in a regulation, a rule, a percentage, rather than the power of Holy Spirit to transform His own people. I would think that as long as we do that in this area of Christian life, giving is going to be a problem. It is assuming the worst about God's holy nation, and using compulsion rather than love to get them to do what we evidently believe they don't want to do. Hogwash. God is able. If it ain't happening in your Church, it ain't because there's not enough guilt-tripping, it's because there's not enough faith and Gospel.

What believer doesn't love the Bride of Christ enough to want to give all he can to her welfare? Tithing is paltry. God is able to provide for us, even when we give sacrificially, is He not?

 

[ChariotsofFire]

At the very least, can we say that 10% is a good example from Scripture to follow?

 

[Mushroom]

At the very least, can we say that 10% is a good example from Scripture to follow?

Or maybe somewhere between there and the widow's mite?