I decided to start a new thread on this because I don't want this thought buried in the Repent! thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=22580
JohnV, you wrote this, and Bill made some comments and I want to comment on this because the thread revolved around Baptism.
I included Bill's portion to try to bring together a couple of ideas so be patient because I might not get clearly to the point I'm trying to make.
I've been repeatedly concerned when these discussions come up over baptism that what is criticized is not attitude (that ought to be checked at times) but truth itself.
I think between you and Rev. Winzer I started to really focus on why Confessions were important not only for Churches but individuals. As I study the history of Western Philosophy, the feature the repeats itself is hubris - men thinking they can determine Truth and that everything that came before them is rubbish.
One of these days I'm going to figure out a way to articulate a thread about what it means to be Confessional but I'm not quite ready yet. I do know that Christ Himself gave Apostles, Pastors, and Teachers to bring His Bride to the unity of the faith. He also vested authority in the Church to testify of that Truth. The testimony itself is not infallible but the Word is. The institution is not infallible but yet it has a responsibility and authority to testify of that truth.
I remember when I first became attracted to the 5 points, I thought I had discovered "Reformed theology". I think, at one point, I thought that it was "cool" that some people knew Greek, Hebrew, and Latin and could read the Scriptures all for themselves and even come up with some really new stuff that nobody had ever considered before. I suppose I don't put that beyond the pale of God's Word but, as a goal, I think far too many people think that good exegesis works that way - Don't be stifled by Confessions - those are SECONDARY documents (I wish I could emphasize it in a way to highlight its repeated refrain where the Confessions become a byword). The REAL Christians read the Church Fathers for themselves and the Word all for themselves. Then they find where the Confession has erred and, lo and behold, one of the WCF Divines was a Thomist and Aristotalean so we can jettison that interpretation of Scripture. Oh, and on the Trinity, they were just accepting what came before them but real students of the Word (and not those slavishly devoted to Confessions) should assume every Church council since Nicea was gooned up on a doctrine.
If this was mere hyperbole the above might actually be amusing. Is there any doubt that the reason why the FV/NPP movement exists is because, after all, Reformed is not enough?
Thus, I've seen you rail against people who adopt a pet theology and define the Church by it. Some want to make the Redemptive Historical hermaneutic the orthodox interpretation for a denomination, others theonomy, and still others the Clarkian view of epistemology.
I'll tell you what, John, working on Chris Coldwell's website was nice for a week or two because dealing with the scattered views of "every man and his Bible" as an Administrator becomes very tiring. It's made me impatient and mean at times. I get applications for this board from Southern Baptist Church Pastoral interns that state that they subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Every time I get an e-mail, I'm actually pleasantly surprised if 1 out of 3 times the person actually knows what it means to subscribe to a Confession.
I've come to the realization that the reason why there is a "cage stage" for "Calvinists" is because most new "Calvinists" are not Calvinists at all but people who are initially fascinated by the 5 points of Calvinism and, lacking any other theological grid, have conversations with people like: "Are you a Semi-Pelagian?" I can say that because I once asked my brother that.
Thus, this is all a long way of saying that when Bill points out the FV/NPP are obviously outside the bounds of Biblical truth, I say AMEN but I say AMEN because I agree with my Church's interpretation of the Word of God.
Thus, since most of the ruckus has been over the subject of Baptism, I simply cannot say that I completely agree that the subject of the recipients of Baptism is like unto Pentecostals and a 2nd Blessing. One, I believe with all the fiber of my convictions is in the Scriptures while the other I reject as outright error and speak angrily against it. One belief stands with a Church's right interpretation of the Word while the other stems largely from the experiences of a woman and her followers in the early 20th Century.
Now, must I be arrogant or condescending when people who I believe are confused as to the Scripture's teaching on Baptism? Absolutely not. God forbid. But must I accept that my conviction on Baptism is a "personal view". Absolutely not. Who we do or don't baptize is incredibly important. How we do or don't view our baptism is incredibly important.
I don't hate the Baptism forum. In fact, it's because of the Baptism forum that I understand the nature of my Baptism where I once was very confused. I don't love some of the ruckus I've gotten myself into there and I'm not proud of it. If it wasn't for the Baptism forum then my teaching of men at my Church would have been more impoverished. As it was, it helped me underline the nature of our trust in God even in the signs He gives us of our Grace. Both our confessions highlight that fact, the WCF more strongly so, but even the LBCF can strengthen a man impoverished by the Arminian deprecations of the Gospel.
Thus, I want to be very clear. I'm in complete agreement that we need to season our speech with love and be patient but that's on the basis that I believe I stand on solid ground - the Word of God. But I also believe, with all my heart, that the Word tells me I don't figure out what it says for myself but confess it with the Church. What I confess, I believe is Truth, the very Word of God and I simply cannot include Baptism as something that can be even placed in the same neighborhood as "indifferent doctrines". I don't think you intended to say that but I want to be very clear lest others interpret your words as such.
JohnV, you wrote this, and Bill made some comments and I want to comment on this because the thread revolved around Baptism.
I don't see any reason to doubt that. What you said above only satisfies me more concerning that. What I won't accept is that orthodoxy is narrowed down to personal views and interpretations. It could just as well be Dispensationalism then. Or crazy Pentecostalism.
I think you and I are on the same page. We're both coming to the discussion with teachable hearts, with repentent hearts, with contrite hearts. And we're hoping to learn from each other. We don't need someone stepping in calling us to repentance over our views. That's exactly what we're trying to do, together.
JohnV,John, Adam (and to everyone else reading this thread) - this is it in a nutshell. We don't need to be called to repentance over our confessional beliefs. A call to repentance essentially ends discussion on the matter. If both sides disagree and one side calls the other to repentance, what is left to discuss? And while I share some of Adam's frustration about the baptism boards, one of the reasons they exist is to offer a venue for continued discussion. A call to repentance ends that discussion.
Now, I am not suggesting that we don't challenge doctrinal positions. We should. Some teachings are not debatable (i.e. FV and NP) for most of us. Others are not so clear cut (i.e. the Clarkian threads). Again, these are some of the reasons why we are here. In my case the PB has been instrumental in moving me from dispensationalism into a more covenant-friendly view of scripture. I'll be the first to admit that I am not a WCF-Reformer.
But...semper reformanda!
I included Bill's portion to try to bring together a couple of ideas so be patient because I might not get clearly to the point I'm trying to make.
I've been repeatedly concerned when these discussions come up over baptism that what is criticized is not attitude (that ought to be checked at times) but truth itself.
I think between you and Rev. Winzer I started to really focus on why Confessions were important not only for Churches but individuals. As I study the history of Western Philosophy, the feature the repeats itself is hubris - men thinking they can determine Truth and that everything that came before them is rubbish.
One of these days I'm going to figure out a way to articulate a thread about what it means to be Confessional but I'm not quite ready yet. I do know that Christ Himself gave Apostles, Pastors, and Teachers to bring His Bride to the unity of the faith. He also vested authority in the Church to testify of that Truth. The testimony itself is not infallible but the Word is. The institution is not infallible but yet it has a responsibility and authority to testify of that truth.
I remember when I first became attracted to the 5 points, I thought I had discovered "Reformed theology". I think, at one point, I thought that it was "cool" that some people knew Greek, Hebrew, and Latin and could read the Scriptures all for themselves and even come up with some really new stuff that nobody had ever considered before. I suppose I don't put that beyond the pale of God's Word but, as a goal, I think far too many people think that good exegesis works that way - Don't be stifled by Confessions - those are SECONDARY documents (I wish I could emphasize it in a way to highlight its repeated refrain where the Confessions become a byword). The REAL Christians read the Church Fathers for themselves and the Word all for themselves. Then they find where the Confession has erred and, lo and behold, one of the WCF Divines was a Thomist and Aristotalean so we can jettison that interpretation of Scripture. Oh, and on the Trinity, they were just accepting what came before them but real students of the Word (and not those slavishly devoted to Confessions) should assume every Church council since Nicea was gooned up on a doctrine.
If this was mere hyperbole the above might actually be amusing. Is there any doubt that the reason why the FV/NPP movement exists is because, after all, Reformed is not enough?
Thus, I've seen you rail against people who adopt a pet theology and define the Church by it. Some want to make the Redemptive Historical hermaneutic the orthodox interpretation for a denomination, others theonomy, and still others the Clarkian view of epistemology.
I'll tell you what, John, working on Chris Coldwell's website was nice for a week or two because dealing with the scattered views of "every man and his Bible" as an Administrator becomes very tiring. It's made me impatient and mean at times. I get applications for this board from Southern Baptist Church Pastoral interns that state that they subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Every time I get an e-mail, I'm actually pleasantly surprised if 1 out of 3 times the person actually knows what it means to subscribe to a Confession.
I've come to the realization that the reason why there is a "cage stage" for "Calvinists" is because most new "Calvinists" are not Calvinists at all but people who are initially fascinated by the 5 points of Calvinism and, lacking any other theological grid, have conversations with people like: "Are you a Semi-Pelagian?" I can say that because I once asked my brother that.
Thus, this is all a long way of saying that when Bill points out the FV/NPP are obviously outside the bounds of Biblical truth, I say AMEN but I say AMEN because I agree with my Church's interpretation of the Word of God.
Thus, since most of the ruckus has been over the subject of Baptism, I simply cannot say that I completely agree that the subject of the recipients of Baptism is like unto Pentecostals and a 2nd Blessing. One, I believe with all the fiber of my convictions is in the Scriptures while the other I reject as outright error and speak angrily against it. One belief stands with a Church's right interpretation of the Word while the other stems largely from the experiences of a woman and her followers in the early 20th Century.
Now, must I be arrogant or condescending when people who I believe are confused as to the Scripture's teaching on Baptism? Absolutely not. God forbid. But must I accept that my conviction on Baptism is a "personal view". Absolutely not. Who we do or don't baptize is incredibly important. How we do or don't view our baptism is incredibly important.
I don't hate the Baptism forum. In fact, it's because of the Baptism forum that I understand the nature of my Baptism where I once was very confused. I don't love some of the ruckus I've gotten myself into there and I'm not proud of it. If it wasn't for the Baptism forum then my teaching of men at my Church would have been more impoverished. As it was, it helped me underline the nature of our trust in God even in the signs He gives us of our Grace. Both our confessions highlight that fact, the WCF more strongly so, but even the LBCF can strengthen a man impoverished by the Arminian deprecations of the Gospel.
Thus, I want to be very clear. I'm in complete agreement that we need to season our speech with love and be patient but that's on the basis that I believe I stand on solid ground - the Word of God. But I also believe, with all my heart, that the Word tells me I don't figure out what it says for myself but confess it with the Church. What I confess, I believe is Truth, the very Word of God and I simply cannot include Baptism as something that can be even placed in the same neighborhood as "indifferent doctrines". I don't think you intended to say that but I want to be very clear lest others interpret your words as such.