Personal Salvation discussion with Roman Catholic

[Deleted member 7239]

I had an online discussion with a Roman Catholic and it’s discouraging —How would you respond to what he is saying?

“Jesus never instituted personal salvation.

Jesus gave the mission of sharing the gift of salvation with the apostles and disciples until his return.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Apart from the Church there is no access to Christ.

There is no access to salvation apart from the Body of Christ.

The whole idea that salvation is just a direct spiritual moment between me and Jesus, without anybody else, is the furthest thing from Biblical wisdom as you can get.

God NEVER worked in the world apart from a community that He called to be His coworkers. So to create a theology of salvation that is hyper-individualistic and private is non-Biblical.

If you get stuck on just seeing an institution in the Church then this won't ever make sense.

But if you look deeper and see the community, the Body of Christ, then you will see the Church.”

 

[RamistThomist]

What we mean by the word "church" and what he means are definitionally different.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Am I correct in saying that the central issue is apostolic succession and the magisterial authority of the RC church? How do we point to authority of scripture when they claim authority over scripture?!

 

[RamistThomist]

Am I correct in saying that the central issue is apostolic succession and the magisterial authority of the RC church? How do we point to authority of scripture when they claim authority over scripture?!

The central issue is the Pope. We can point to the authority of Scripture, to which they would respond that you have to have the magisterium to even know that. At that point we are thrown back upon first principles.

 

[alexanderjames]

A few thoughts..

Prayerfully consider the profitability of discussing this, especially online.

If you do consider it worthwhile, I think you will need to establish what they means by their terms “church”, body of Christ”, etc. As Jacob has said, the Roman Catholic definition of words like church is different to what we understand them to mean. It also complicates things further that this person may have a different view that what the RCC officially teaches.

It seems like they have misunderstood or are misrepresenting your view by saying that Christianity or salvation is “hyper individualistic”. Of course, we maintain both the necessity of personal salvation in Jesus as well as the church as the gathered fellowship of believers acting as the body of Christ. We don’t uphold one at the expense of the other.

You will probably want to establish upon what basis they are making these claims.

Several things could be refuted straight away, most notably the point about personal salvation. To say there is no personal salvation demonstrates a profound lack of biblical awareness, which indicates they probably don’t know what they’re talking about at all.


It becomes increasingly difficult to discuss these things (especially online) because before you can pin people down on one specific point they run off in other directions so as to avoid facing the problem head on. If you do consider the person to be receptive to the truth of the word of God, it may be better to show them the better way - in the simple truths of the Gospel - from the Scriptures, rather than focusing on each one of Rome’s errors.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

I think online dialogue with anyone has its issues. As one who grew up in the Catholic Church and has many RC family members I have an interest in discussion with Catholics which wouldn’t be possible in person. One issue with online discussion which we’ve all seen (even on the PB— gasp) are people saying things to others they would never say to them in person and pretending to be more knowledgeable than they actually are.

I think we can become more solid in our convictions by sharing the truth in love as we are instructed to.

 

[alexanderjames]

I think online dialogue with anyone has its issues. As one who grew up in the Catholic Church and has many RC family members I have an interest in discussion with Catholics which wouldn’t be possible in person. One issue with online discussion which we’ve all seen (even on the PB— gasp) are people saying things to others they would never say to them in person and pretending to be more knowledgeable than they actually are.

I think we can become more solid in our convictions by sharing the truth in love as we are instructed to.

Agreed.
I wrote my comment not knowing the context of the discussion or your personal background/knowledge.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

What we mean by the word "church" and what he means are definitionally different.

I am asking simple questions so I get simple answers and this is a discussion board so near with me. How would you say the nature of the church is foundationally different in RC vs. Protestantism? Invisibility? Central authority?

 

[RamistThomist]

I am asking simple questions so I get simple answers and this is a discussion board so near with me. How would you say the nature of the church is foundationally different in RC vs. Protestantism? Invisibility? Central authority?

For them the church is what (and where) the pope says it is. For us it is where the Spirit creates the community of believers.