Pentecostal Systematics

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JM

Puritan Board Doctor
I'm interested in reading a systematic theology from the Pentecostal or charismatic perspective. Which systematic would you recommend?

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
I'm interested in reading a systematic theology from the Pentecostal or charismatic perspective. Which systematic would you recommend?

Yours in the Lord,

jm
https://www.christianbook.com/systematic-theology-revised-edition-stanley.
This I believe is the standared treatment, as the editor was on staff at the AOG seminary
https://www.amazon.com/Renewal-Theology-Systematic-Charismatic-Perspective/dp/0310209145
The book written by J.Rodman Williams
Also, from a moderate Charasmatic reformed viewpoint
The ST of Dr Wayne Grudem
 
I haven't read any Pentecostal ST so I'm looking forward to it. The first title you linked to is free for download on Hoopla if you use that library app. (It's free from your local library in many places.)
 
Renewal Theology by Williams is good. He is competent, knows church history and the languages. In other words, this isn't a holler revival.

He used to have some audio messages, but now they are only in .ram files.

Amos Yong hasn't written a systematics, but he has dealt with these issues from a Pentecostal perspective.
 
Renewal Theology by Williams is good. He is competent, knows church history and the languages. In other words, this isn't a holler revival.

He used to have some audio messages, but now they are only in .ram files.

Amos Yong hasn't written a systematics, but he has dealt with these issues from a Pentecostal perspective.

I've ordered the title by Yong using Inter Library Loan.
 
Much of Rodman Williams' corpus is free here. I had the chance to know him a bit (as he attended an EPC church in Virginia... go figure). Very insightful and personable man. As a former Presbyterian pastor, he had some interesting thoughts on Pentacostalism vis-a-vis Reformed theology (though he comes down, of course, on the other side!)
 
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Excellent.

I've been attending a church that is predominately black and the worship boarders on Pentecostal. No one is pretending to make prophecies or healings but it's a lively affair. Preaching is solid as well.
 
Excellent.

I've been attending a church that is predominately black and the worship boarders on Pentecostal. No one is pretending to make prophecies or healings but it's a lively affair. Preaching is solid as well.
If one is from a Reformed/ or a Calvinistic Baptist understanding though, the Theology of the Charismatic church is wrong in so many ways. They do place a premium on witnessing and living for the Lord, and do place a high esteem on the Bible, but there salvation is very free will based, and their views on the second act of grace tends to divide up the church into those who are first rate, and others second rate Christians.
The Aog is the best theology group amomg them, but many of the so called word of faith, modern day Apostles/Prophets, name it and claim it, have moved to be pretty much a heresy within Christendom, at ;east those teaching such doctrines.
 
Much of Rodman Williams' corpus is free here. I had the chance to know him a bit (as he attended an EPC church in Virginia... go figure). Very insightful and personable man. As a former Presbyterian pastor, he had some interesting thoughts on Pentacostalism vis-a-vis Reformed theology (though he comes down, of course, on the other side!)
He must have really switched, from being a Calvinist to an Armianian, and also from Gifts ceasing, to all going on now.
 
Is there a necessary connection between the gifts' being operative now and Arminianism?

There is arguably a distinction to be made between "Charismaticism" (i.e., continuationalism) and Pentecostalism proper. To be sure, as Bill notes, many of the new Calvinists are also open to Charismaticism. I am not familiar with any who would claim the label of Pentecostal.

While he seems himself to blur the two, David Engelsma argues: "That Pentecostalism is Arminian through-and-through is the open, clear, unashamed testimony of the Pentecostals themselves," and goes on to quote some Pentecostal luminaries who admit such:
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_91d.html
 
If one is from a Reformed/ or a Calvinistic Baptist understanding though, the Theology of the Charismatic church is wrong in so many ways. They do place a premium on witnessing and living for the Lord, and do place a high esteem on the Bible, but there salvation is very free will based, and their views on the second act of grace tends to divide up the church into those who are first rate, and others second rate Christians.
The Aog is the best theology group amomg them, but many of the so called word of faith, modern day Apostles/Prophets, name it and claim it, have moved to be pretty much a heresy within Christendom, at ;east those teaching such doctrines.

Goes without saying.
 
Many of the so-called “new Calvinists” are charismatic, at least in some sense.
Which to me is really odd, as the traditional Calvinist/Baptist/Reformed would be against that, but would seem that the Dr Carson/Grudem have made a large inroad into having Charisma now being accepted.
 
Is he an Arminian? Is there a necessary connection between the gifts' being operative now and Arminianism?

I'd venture to surmise that the connection is more psychological than logical. Three possibilities occur to me:
1. Lack of assurance of salvation: if my salvation depends on me, then I cannot be sure of my success in attaining it. How can I be sure that my works are pure enough? How can I be sure that my faith is sincere enough? The extraordinary gifts serve as confirmatory signs.

2.They need some way of attributing strength and power to their weak god. Their god cannot overcome human nature, so they go to great lengths to show that he can overcome natural laws of causation. Hence, miracles, etc.

3.The connection lies in the man-centered foundation of Arminianism, and the way that supposed prophecies and tongues tend to exalt the man exercising the gift.

I am careful, however, to say that I don't know that these ideas are operative in any particular Pentecostal. However, they may lie behind some activity of some of them.
 
C
I'd venture to surmise that the connection is more psychological than logical. Three possibilities occur to me:
1. Lack of assurance of salvation: if my salvation depends on me, then I cannot be sure of my success in attaining it. How can I be sure that my works are pure enough? How can I be sure that my faith is sincere enough? The extraordinary gifts serve as confirmatory signs.

2.They need some way of attributing strength and power to their weak god. Their god cannot overcome human nature, so they go to great lengths to show that he can overcome natural laws of causation. Hence, miracles, etc.

3.The connection lies in the man-centered foundation of Arminianism, and the way that supposed prophecies and tongues tend to exalt the man exercising the gift.

I am careful, however, to say that I don't know that these ideas are operative in any particular Pentecostal. However, they may lie behind some activity of some of them.

Certainly in some cases. Psych-evals are kind of risky (but we all do it anyway). "Pentecostal" is a broad term covering 500 million people. It could mean anyone from Martin Lloyd-Jones to RT Kendall to Michael Brown to some witch-doctor in South America.
 
Years ago I was floored when I learned Grudum and Piper are Calvinistic, Baptist, and Coninualists or cautiously optimistic as they might say. Never in my life did I think I would come across a Continualist Baptist! I was equally surprised to learn about the EPC. Although I came to be a cessationalist, coming from the other side, I can appreciate the evangelicalism of bringing charismatic believers to embrace the Doctrines of Grace, Calvinizing former Weslyian/Amrminans.
 
Which groups? I asked what the logical connection between Arminianism and Pentecostalism was? Most Arminians are cessationists.
My point was that there was the vast majority who hold to either Pentecostal/Charismatic theologies were from the Non reformed/Calvinist position, as they seem to have a watered down understanding on both inspiration and revelation.
 
I'd venture to surmise that the connection is more psychological than logical. Three possibilities occur to me:
1. Lack of assurance of salvation: if my salvation depends on me, then I cannot be sure of my success in attaining it. How can I be sure that my works are pure enough? How can I be sure that my faith is sincere enough? The extraordinary gifts serve as confirmatory signs.

2.They need some way of attributing strength and power to their weak god. Their god cannot overcome human nature, so they go to great lengths to show that he can overcome natural laws of causation. Hence, miracles, etc.

3.The connection lies in the man-centered foundation of Arminianism, and the way that supposed prophecies and tongues tend to exalt the man exercising the gift.

I am careful, however, to say that I don't know that these ideas are operative in any particular Pentecostal. However, they may lie behind some activity of some of them.
I also would add to that the doctrines of demons that some of their so called teachers are promoting, as many are falling to their bad theology.
 
C


Certainly in some cases. Psych-evals are kind of risky (but we all do it anyway). "Pentecostal" is a broad term covering 500 million people. It could mean anyone from Martin Lloyd-Jones to RT Kendall to Michael Brown to some witch-doctor in South America.
I find it better to see there being 2 distinct groups within that broad umbrella, one being the classic Pentecostals such as the AOG, and the new Charasmatics. Though the AOG and similar churches tech wrong about the working of the Holy Spirit in salvation and gifts, not nearly as bad theology as those who have name it and claim it, divine healing for all, additional revelations etc.
 
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