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Discussion in 'Family Forum' started by Scott, Jun 15, 2005.
Article on PCA Resolution to Pull Kids from Public Schools.
I hope they are more resolute than the SBC. Somebody pointed out to me that if all Southern Baptists in Texas pull their kids out of government schools on Friday, the whole system would collapse by next Wednesday.
Scott, There is a thread on this subject here.
Someone told me that if all Southern Baptists in Texas had their children baptized on Friday, the whole SBC would become Presbyterian by Sunday. Or at least congregationalist.
[Edited on 6-15-2005 by poimen]
In all seriousness however, I hope it passes.
How about a resolution to promote the funding and establishment of PCA schools first? I feel bad for a lot of families who can't afford christian education. My own children attend a conservative Lutheran school because the school has been very generous with financial aid. I would love for them to be able to go to a PCA school.
ever consider, uh, homeschooling, Jonathan? I have a friend going to Covenant Seminary...he schools the kids while at home and his wife works. She's home while he attends school.
Before you throw the tomatoes....Twin Oaks PCA does have a school. They probably (hopefully) have financial aid as well (they are a big enough church that's for certain!) and I believe they use a classical curriculum.
[Edited on 6-15-2005 by LadyFlynt]
And many home/christian schooled kids rebel against their christian upbringing, especially in college.
Why not trust in Providence, and accept that their children will not be "converted" without His will, instead of being afraid that the big bad government is going to "convert" their children if they let them go to the evil public school.
Thom, it's more a matter of it being a parental responsiblity given by God...than who would win the tug of war for the kids hearts. However, I've known relatively few "CHRISTIAN" homeschoolers that have rebelled. Try that in comparison to the "CHRISTIAN" kids in public schools (I was one, please keep in mind).
Twin Oaks is really far from where we live - it wouldn't be feasible given the varying ages - we already have to drive back and forth several times each day to pick up the kindegartner and the older ones who have different times they're at school. The little Lutheran school we found is very close. Our oldest son is autistic and so he needs to be in a school environment so we can force him to socialize with girls, other adults, kids his age, etc. - we found a school that was willing to work with us and allow him to be in a regular classroom. We have considered homeschooling some of the other boys (we have four boys) but prefer them to be in a church school. I'm not really super excited about homeschooling - I like the idea of church school best because I like the idea of looking to the church for education, and I guess homeschooling would be the next best thing. I'm also frankly scared. I like spreading out the risk - letting my children be around happy, Christ-loving teachers for a while every day is a good break from me and my wife - it brings some diversity to their day because those teachers have strengths that we lack and so my children benefit from seeing various kinds of Christians. I respect those of you who homeschool - it is hard work, and though we may have to do it someday, I view it as our plan B.
What I'd really like is an accelerated second grade for my second oldest boy. The school he is going to now isn't as challenging for him as it is for his younger brother. I wish there were a gifted Christian school...
The real argument goes something like this,
Many undiscipled "christian" children rebel against their upbringing. If kids rebel in college, there is more at issue than homeschooling.
I also respect ppl like you who have taken the time to view out your options, deal with different circumstances, and still try to find a Christ-centred resolution. We have several autism spectrum children within our extended family on both sides (seems to be a genetic trait from their non-related parents) and a close friend with an autistic son (due to a series of shots he received). I know some of the pros of being in a classroom setting for these children. I'm glad you and your wife found a christian school for them. Thanks for not throwing tomatoes at me!
We need to have a St L. get-together this summer....I've noticed quite a few from the area on here and I'm sure hubby would enjoy (and I would enjoy meeting what wives there are )
My point is that if a child is "converted" in a public school its more an issue of the child's lack of proper christian education in the home and church, than the evil influences of a secular public school. I had nothing but secular public education from pre-school through university, and I was never converted nor ever thought about leaving my faith. It's hard at times for a christian child to go through a secular education with many non-christian peers, but it prepares you for real life in a fallen secular world.
Perhaps the PCA should focus more on educating parents on their educational responsibilties in the home and church.
Does a state have a right to educate the child?
Why is the State taking upon itself the role of education? it is trying to be messianic.
the issue is that while parents may delegate teaching to someone else they are still responsible before God for what their children are taught.
I recommend reading David Limbaugh's book Persecution on the matter of public schools.
I wounder if I would still be a Christian or at least Reformed if it wasnt for the fire breathing atheists at my secular High School. Through tribulations a person is refined. Some people are burnt away but those who survive are the better for it. I still remember that class where we had to read an article about how Christian "Fundamentalists" are killing good literature. The teacher ranted about it for ages on end. My history teacher was also always ready to pull out not-so-funny Puritan jokes that made no one laugh.
I would rather there were Christian Schools than Homeschools. That gives children a high level of education outside of secular schools. Not every perant has the ability to homeschool and very few can match the specialised education of a multi-million dollar school.
hey Colleen, ( and everyone else )
do you think that parents' responsibility before God to bring up their kids is completely incompatible with sending children to public schools?
These websites which I cited in the other thread on this subject are helpful:
Alliance for the Separation of School and State
Home School Legal Defense Association
Get the Kids Out
Also this article is a good read. Sam Blumenfeld has written some good books about the history of statist public education and the agenda of the NEA too.
Yes, I do.
that's fair enough...just a further question if you don't mind.
If the government were to legislate to make it complusory to send children to public schools do you see this as a legitimate area for civil disobedience?
Do you think a christian should go to jail rather than submit to a government trying to force all children into public schools?
just curious about your thoughts...
1. A thousand times NO!
2. Jail/going to government schools might not be the only two options.
Please call them "government schools" and not "public schools."
soz...that's what i meant yes...
on second thoughts i realize i wasn't really thinking clear about this..isn't the distinction we are drawing between christian and non-chrisitan schools?
of course by chrisitan i don't mean any old school that calls them self by that name...
[Edited on 6-16-2005 by satz]
Many people today are unaware of how the government has persecuted parents who wanted to fulfill their God-given duty to educate their own children. The modern homeschooling movement came about in part because parents were willing to risk the consequences of civil disobedience in a state where homeschooling was illegal.
Source: HSLDA/Washington Times
I would rather children raised in their proper roles, raised by their loving parents, raised in Christ, and raised with character and integrity than a specialized education. There are so many ways to homeschool! A parent that says they aren't "capable" hasn't done their research. Video school, online school, co-ops that offer classes in areas that some parents find difficult (our co-op usually offers Latin, Sign Language, Drama, History classes (if using a particular curriculum), Dressmaking (moi), sometimes a type of science class, Intros to various art by a professional (and wonderful) artist, and this year I believe someone in our church will be holding advance math classes for jr through sr high. That helps ALOT with the middle and upper grades. The younger grades are fairly simple. You really need to only focus on the basics, get them reading, read alot, and if neccessary for you...follow the teacher's manual's just like any other teacher.
A FALSEHOOD about many teachers is that they "must be experts in what they teach"....HAH!!!! (no offense to teachers on the board...I have several close friends that are or have been teachers and considered it once myself) Teachers go to college to learn psychology, crowd control, politics, and paperwork. When they teach a class, they take whatever curriculum is given them (just as a homeschooler does), opens it up (just like a homeschooler), decides what to do (just like a homeschooler), and typically teaches from that (just like many typical homeschoolers). Only as a homeschooler, I'm not dealing with a million different problems coming from various homes and attitudes (Thank you to all the wonderful Christian teachers that find this to be your MISSION FIELD), instead I just have to focus on my few children, their specific needs, and we can spend more time on our studies. Most homeschoolers actually finish their school wordk around dinner (lunch) time. They aren't wasting their day in endless bells, walking, and etc. They have more oppurtunity to pursue their interest (my eldest son's is medical science...he's only 8 and determined to be a medical scientist or doctor!). Will I be able to teach him everything...probably not...if I hit a rough point I will find a class or tutor for him (many of these are free or cost a small fee under $50) or I can enroll him in a class at the local community college (you can take classes up there while still in highschool, I did when I was in public highschool and I know many homeschoolers that do). What will he learn that way...well, he will advance in those areas and already have a college credit....also by then he will be able to handle being in that type of class and since he focused on his studies at home rather than the peer pressures of school, he will have the focus colleges requires. Ppl who say they "can't teach" their child either haven't done their research or are coping out. (BTW, there are many parents that homeschool their handicapped children as well and there are special groups that support these parents...though I do understand the pressures of raising a child that is different...I partially raised two myself-a brother and a cousin-as well as dealing with a live-in 30yr old aunt with the mind of a 12yr).
Christian schools have their strengths and their vices...I think they have their place, especially as an outreach. But, yes, I do believe it to be the parents who hold the main responsibility...and when you compare the hours the schools have your kids to the one or two hours you have them before bed...who's REALLY training your kids?
I don't hold anything against those that haven't homeschooled their kids. Homeschooling wasn't the "norm" for a time so many either don't think of it, are scared of it, or just ignorant about it.
Please remember, I went through all the "toughening up" and "learning to deal with the world" in a public school. I nearly didn't survive. By all accounts I should have ended up a runaway and then in abusive relationships. Nothing like dealing with home issues, roughened up at school, and abusive treatment from teachers. Those with "good homes" got the best treatment at school as well...and many of those good "christian" kids fell for the garbage the teachers unloaded onto them and have since left the faith they were raised in--reformed, pentacostal, baptist. I think having it difficult at home and not trusting the teachers actually protected me and caused me to lean more onto my faith....and the fact that I met a young man stronger in his faith than I was in mine. So, YES, I also believe in Providence...but neither should you aim for the goal of being parents like mine or the others kids, throwing caution to the wind, and saying "well, it's all up to Providence". I hope you didn't leave it up to Providence that your kids would feed themselves, walk on their own, etc. I believe YOU put YOUR OWN initiative into it. Parents were purposed to TEACH THEIR CHILDREN.
Yes! Please note the history of homeschooling in this past century that Andrew made note of.
Before the 1900's many children (and most of our presidents) homeschooled--and not with tutors either. As towns started schools (when the town was in control not the state) schooling out slowly became the norm...then the state stepped in with their money and rules of doing it their way....and on and on. It's a bankrupt, corrupted, socialistic/totalitarian, anti-Christ system.
As a survivor of statist education myself who is now a home school teacher, I echo the lyrics below emphatically:
"When I think back on all the [stuff] I learned in high school/
It's a wonder I can think at all" -- Paul Simon
"We don't need no [statist] education/
We don't need no thought control" -- Pink Floyd
Here is an inspiring story about the superior education that comes from homeschooling.
[Edited on 6-16-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
I have home schooled and I plan to home school again BUT, I wonder if we are doing right by exiting government schools and leaving such a great vacuum. It doesn't help our neighborhoods and communities to encourage a Christian ghetto.
Shouldn't we be infiltrating the schools and government and entertainment instead of running for the high grass. Someone tell me where I'm wrong here and thanks in advance.
God decrees not only the ends, but also the means. He does not only decree whether a child will remain a Christian but he also decrees the means by which that child will remain a Christian. The Bible suggests that parental instruction in biblical law all day long is the primary means of passing on the faith (Deut. 6). If you make a child spend a large portion of his waking hours in an enviornment where it is illegal to pass on the faith, then this is disobedience (he is not receiving instruction in the law all day long) and is undercutting one of the means God's uses to pass on the faith.
88 percent of evangelical children leave the church at age 18 and never return. This is morosely depressing. They are typically not converted to some world religion (eg. Islam), but converted to simple American relativisim, as taught in public schools, TV, and the like.
BTW, I am glad you were in the 12 percent. But 12 percent does not make the rule.
Bob: Those are very legitimate concerns. My response is that it just does not work. Our spiritual mortality rate is very high - with evangelicals losing 88 percent of their children to secularism. Our kids are not shaping the public schools. The public schools are shaping the kids.
It is also a challenge for kids. They are taught to respect and obey authorities. And these same authorities teach the kids to become cold to their parents' faith.
Bob, I am all for Christians getting out there in the world and being salt and light. I think the best way to redeem society according to Biblical principles, however, is to strengthen the family, which is the basic building block of church and state. Christian education by parents or those specifically delegated by parents in fulfillment of God's requirements in Deut. 6 and Proverbs along with family worship is the primary means of accomplishing this. When children leave the home fully equipped by their parents to face the spiritual battle that we all face then society will truly be the better. Homeschooling is strategically the best thing parents can do for their children and our society. The investment of protecting children from ungodly influences and training them in the nuture and admonition of the Lord -- contra statist education -- with God's blessing will reap untold benefits for society and generations to come. It is not a ghetto mentality; it is an investment in the future.