PCA African-American Ministries Coordinator Newsletter

[ChristianTrader]

I am not saying that there is a problem with Reformed Seminaries, I am just giving people rational potential targets to place blame on.

 

[LadyFlynt]

How the heck did this thread become about music?!

I think because it was being used as an example and it just slid right into a whole different topic. People focused on the example, not the point.

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 09:37:10 EST-----

But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.

Thank you for using the word "agitator", Brother Joshua. Because agitation is exactly what it is. And it's not new. The more things change the more they stay the same.

I for one refuse to succumb to the politics of guilt and pity (make Whitey feel guilty so you can control him). I'm not swallowing the Kool-Aid.

This is where the misunderstanding is and the defensiveness is.

There is no "make whitey feel guilty"...it is "whitey" that is questioning "why is there a need for more black ministers, are we 'good enough' " as though others are saying they aren't. No one is saying that.

They are merely looking at ways to reach out to various communities.

ONE of those ways is to look for ministers from that same cultural understanding and background to work directly with these people. There is a reason for it. It's not because "whitey is the bane of all their troubles"...it's because they need someone that UNDERSTANDS the issues in THAT community. A church isn't JUST meeting spiritual needs...many times it's also meeting social, physical, and relational needs as well.

So please, please, please stop being defensive about it. Please TRY to understand that there are culturally relevant ISSUES that not everyone is capable of helping their flock deal with.


BTW, I did give our pastor a copy of this letter and a link to these threads. This is a subject he and my husband both have a lot of heart in.

 

[raekwon]

I admit that I haven't read every word of every post in this thread, but I'm not seeing any of this supposed guilt-baiting.

Unless I'm the one doing it, of course. lol

 

[he beholds]

I admit that I haven't read every word of every post in this thread, but I'm not seeing any of this supposed guilt-baiting.

Unless I'm the one doing it, of course. lol

That's because there hasn't been any.

 

[Edward]

Then we need to separate out which is which, fix what needs to be fixed, call a spade what needs to be called a spade etc. and not hide behind music/worship styles.

I don't disagree with that.

Okay so we have some sort of common ground.



Actually you did not even attempt to address my objection. My objection is that some things blamed on race are actually just knowledge and understanding. It is not as if there is something inherent to the race.

Not to be mean but it seems like the same sort of reasoning used by Obama to put forth various racial or gender people to the Supreme Court. There is nothing inherent to women/men/black/white/latino etc. that make them able to rule on various cases better. Either one knows the facts of the case and how the law applies to this or one does not.

To think that one needs to rely solely on white western missionaries to lead seems to imply that the indigenous people are somehow inherently incapable of leading. That view is problematic on a great deal of levels.

You can see it in international mission fields, but you can't see it cross culturally in the US?

Um, you do not see the difference in situations? The problem is not raising up people from our congregations to receive calls to the ministry or related functions. From what I understand our seminaries seem to be quite full and producing a good number of ministerial candidates. The issue as far as black ministers is the Ones and twosies problem. Unless you think it is the responsibility of every black male in the PCA to go to seminary and become pastors, there are going to be few actual and potential black ministers in the PCA.

The only reason this would be a problem is if the people being produced are being trained to minister only to the standard middle class white congregation. But if that is the case, then sending more black males to seminary is just going to add to the number of people with the ability to minister to the standard middle class white congregation.

CT

I think it's best that I leave this thread.

While I generally have outstanding communications skills, I have been totally unable to communicate on this thread. Since that seems unlikely to change, I'll bow out.

 

[SemperEruditio]

I disagree Edward, I think you are doing fine.

 

[SemperEruditio]

I attend a multi-ethnic church plant. Our church was formed from two churches and the African American was called to be the senior pastor. Our worship style is a combination of hymns and I guess they would be "contemporary." We have three different "styles" we run through in worship during the month. One Sunday it is all hymns and others it is only one hymn.

My wife coming from a Pentecostal background had major issues with the songs and praise, however "the Word is just too good to leave." She is adjusting and focusing on the richness of the doxology. Her suggestion to me is to begin working on changing the arrangement but keeping the words because they are so Biblical.

The biggest thing and this really comes out when we visit the prison is in how the African American pastor leads the worship using the hymns. There is no musical accompainment in the prison. That is where I began to realize the power of the hymns. That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word. In the prison it is predominantly the African American inmates who come to chapel. The prison is about 40% White and 40% Black with the rest Latino and then other ethnicities.

In discussion with others at the church this topic comes up and inevitably the fact that the pastor who is African American and comes from a Baptist "hallelujah" background can have such passion for those "old, White songs." His race is never brought into question as in he "sold out." What it does is convict us that we need to take another look at the hymns and focus on what we are saying versus how many goosebumps we feel.

I had to preach two Sundays ago at the prison and the pastor was not in town, so I led worship and we sang from the hymnal. It was an experience to not only be preaching at the prison for the first time but for the first time in my life to be in front of a group and singing outloud. I had to own that hymn in that I had to believe in it and love it. I had to love the words and the message and I did. It was moving because I could hear the humdrum singing of the inmates which had me sing louder and with more joy. I felt every word and I then understood how my pastor could say that he is not a fan of the hymns but yet sings them with such joy.

To me the hymns are like spinach or artichokes. They are so good for you but you wouldn't choose them if you didn't have to. This happened because of an African American pastor. Unfortunately, and this is painful to admit, if it had been a Caucasian pastor the experience would not be the same. It would have been a situation where "of course he likes the hymns...he's a White guy." Not saying it's right, just confessing my sin. As much as we think we are free from "ethnic sins" or prejudicial sins we are not, especially those of us who claim we are. If the shoe fits then fine, otherwise just keep it moving.

To those who I assume are referring to me being an "agitator." I apologize that this thread has been taken that way. My point was in addressing the fact that the PCA is actively addressing diversity. In the thread "Is the PCA growing?" there was the implication that the PCA is a middle-class Whites-only denomination with no interest in Blacks/Browns. My response there and this thread here is to prove that the PCA is trying to address the issue. A few months ago I agree that I was agitated with the PCA, however since that time I had a change of heart. This thread was about discussing how African American leadership can help to begin to add diversity in the pews. I will post the May newsletter so you can see that multi-ethnic congregations are preferred.

 

[SemperEruditio]

Please read the following in its entirety. This should help with the discussion. I believe the issue is Black leadership over worship styles.

Dear Friend

When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6

There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.

Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?

I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.

What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.

If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.

In His Service,

Plummer

Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator

 

[JBaldwin]

Dear Friend

When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6

There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.

Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?

I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.

What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.

If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.

In His Service,

Plummer

Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator

[/QUOTE]

This letter touches on what I've been thinking as I've read through this thread. Why are the multi-ethnic church plants more successful? I think it is because they are focusing on the needs of the people rather than on a business model (as has been alluded to in the letter).

The issue is cultural more than people realize, and it's not just worship styles, though that plays a huge part. The truth is the cultural issue in church planting has been a problem across the board and not just in white vs. black issues. It also has to do with missions in general.

We really don't realize how much culture influences our worship style and our approach to the church in general. And In my humble opinion where culture does not violate the Scriptures, there is nothing wrong with allowing those things that make us comfortable to be in our worship. I once visited a church where no one arrived on time. Though the worship time was supposed to be 11:00 a.m., the service didn't really get "warmed up" until 12:00 and it went on well into the afternoon. People trickled in for the first hour. Why? It was a cultural thing. For generations, folks in that culture didn't have alarm clocks or ways to tell exact time, so they judged the worship time by where the sun was in the sky. They didn't always judge accurately. The worship style was a bit different than I would expect, but the preaching was solid as were the hymns, though I was totally unfamiliar with the style of singing.

When the PCA (or any other church planting group) goes into an area where these are the cultural norms, the church planters need to take this into consideration.

In the case of my own church, many of us prayed for years to get a church planted in our area, but all attempts failed. It wasn't until a church planter came along who understood that a church in this area might look very different from others in the presbytery because of the unique cultural differences in this pocket of the community was a church successfully planted. While our style of fellowship seems to work well in this community, we are still struggling with the worship style.

Worship is VERY personal, even in a large group, and when we are thrown into a completely uncomfortable situation when it comes to worship, we do tend to want to walk away.

In short, I think until church planters realize that while their first priority is the purity of the Gospel, faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His Word, there is room for what is comfortable in a community without compromising.

 

[py3ak]

Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.

 

[he beholds]

Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.

Most of us on this thread have not been talking or thinking about our own comfort at all! We are thinking of the comfort of others--surely that is not sinful and is relevant to the mission of the church. Again I speak of my church, where there a three, maybe four black families, an Asian/Caucasian family and various visitors of other ethnicities, and we are a church in a city with a 57.19% African American population!!! We do not fit the demographics of our city or of our heavenly kingdom--and I think more concern for others' comfort could make us more representative of reality.

 

[JBaldwin]

Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.

I appreciate your comment on this. The important thing is the preaching of the Word and true worship of Jesus Christ. However, I can't help thinking of the countless missionaries who've gone into other countries and tried to cram Western culture and worship style down the throats of the locals and wondered why God wasn't blessing their efforts. Hudson Taylor was a successful missionary in part because he dressed like the chinese he was trying to win to Christ.

The words of the apostle Paul come to mind, "I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. " (I Corthinians 9:22)

If we want to win the African-american community to the Lord, or any other racial group to the Lord, then we are going to have to learn how they think and to some extent embrace what of their culture we can without compromising.

While I was thinking about this earlier this evening, it occurred to me that even those who hold to EP and no instruments could be more accomodating to the African-American community by setting the psalms to tunes more familiar to the ears of the black community. While it would be a shock to some, I can't imagine that the Lord would be displeased with such an endeavor.

 

[Pergamum]

A few questions:

--What is the percentage of blacks in America?

--What is the percentage of blacks in the PCA?

---What is the percentage of PCA pastors/missionaries who are black, and does this match the same percentage of PCA members who are black?




Now, an observation:

Black foreign missionaries, while serving proudly after the Civil War in Liberia and other places in Africa, are now very poorly represented in missions.

I do not know the reasons, but I know that the numbers are very poor.

What needs to be done so that the work of foreign missions is not merely done by WASPs?

Any discussion here about blacks in the PCA can naturally lead into a discussion as to the reasons and solutions to the lack of blacks sent as foreign missionaries. I think the issues are related.

 

[SemperEruditio]

Pergamum,
Your questions on the stats are probably google'able. I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.

The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is "Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!" The question my colleagues retort with is, "Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?" This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.

That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries! Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do. They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

For those interested in gaining a new perspective on African American Christian culture, I would recommend a book by Carl Ellis Jr. called "Free At Last? The Gospel in the African American Experience." I found it very helpful in beginning to understand the cultural issues and how Black worship and preaching style evolved over our history.

 

[fredtgreco]

That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word.

I don't want to get into the midst of this thread, but this excellent comment needs to be highlighted. We must always remember - first as ministers, also as leaders, and also as members, that we are called to not only experience, but also SHOW the joy and excitement of corporate worship. It is not enough to theologically think about the importance of worship and "it's all about God, not my needs," we must live that theology.

It does no good to be correct in our thoughts while those around us - especially visitors - see us bored, yawning, scowling at song choice, distracted, etc.

May we all have the attitude of the pastor above.

 

[SemperEruditio]

That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word.

I don't want to get into the midst of this thread, but this excellent comment needs to be highlighted. We must always remember - first as ministers, also as leaders, and also as members, that we are called to not only experience, but also SHOW the joy and excitement of corporate worship. It is not enough to theologically think about the importance of worship and "it's all about God, not my needs," we must live that theology.

It does no good to be correct in our thoughts while those around us - especially visitors - see us bored, yawning, scowling at song choice, distracted, etc.

May we all have the attitude of the pastor above.

He's a great guy. He always tells me that "a theology that isn't lived isn't a theology at all." I have learned more from him since I came under his wing in the last 11 months than I did with my former pastor of five years.

 

[Pergamum]

Pergamum,
Your questions on the stats are probably google'able. I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.

The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is "Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!" The question my colleagues retort with is, "Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?" This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.

That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries! Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do. They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.

"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"

Interesting! Do you think that this is a common sentiment among black churches?

 

[SemperEruditio]

"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"

Interesting! Do you think that this is a common sentiment among black churches?

Now you know I cannot comment on Black churches. It's not like the Black church is some monolithic consortium. In my experience though not the Christian ones but the ones which preach a social gospel or liberational gospel perhaps. I have met 10 or so of the ~35 African American PCA pastors and none share this sentiment. It seems to me that the ones I know from seminary who do share this sentiment have an axe to grind. I know one professor who says this regularly however he has never pastored a church and unfortunately has suffered incredibly at the hands of racists. This poor man's wounds are deep and has him gripping to unforgiveness. A shame really. It's confusing to me because these other "gospels" are no gospel at all and instead of "liberating" their congregants every week it seems as though a fresh pinch of salt is added to a festering wound. It's the weirdest thing to hear at chapel about all the transgressions committed by Whites against Blacks or men against women and then told to "love them in spite of..." It's equivalent to "don't think of a polka-dot hippo...don't think of a polka-dot hippo..."

Not sure if that makes any sense but I'm tired right now.....

 

[rbcbob]

Whites training up black leadership in Africa

Pergamum,
Your questions on the stats are probably google'able. I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.

The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is "Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!" The question my colleagues retort with is, "Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?" This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.

That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries! Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do. They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.

I have appreciated much of what you have shared in this long thread; thank you brother.
By way of encouragement (i hope) our church is sending one of our five elders to Zambia in 2010. This is quite a sacrifice to our people because he is so gifted and used among us. But he and his family are willing to spend the next thirty years there if God is so pleased. Oddly enough he is as pale of a white guy as you will ever meet! And yet another of our elders, who is black, will be staying with us. The elder going to Zambia will focus on training pastors and those aspiring to the office in theology with a view to strengthening the black leadership in the country. It is our conviction that the Church is more apt to prosper under local leadership in the long run.

See LION of Zambia

The Lord bless you

 

[ChristianTrader]

How the heck did this thread become about music?!

I think because it was being used as an example and it just slid right into a whole different topic. People focused on the example, not the point.

People went looking for a point and all they found was an example. So you blame the people?

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 09:37:10 EST-----

But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.

Thank you for using the word "agitator", Brother Joshua. Because agitation is exactly what it is. And it's not new. The more things change the more they stay the same.

I for one refuse to succumb to the politics of guilt and pity (make Whitey feel guilty so you can control him). I'm not swallowing the Kool-Aid.

This is where the misunderstanding is and the defensiveness is.

There is no "make whitey feel guilty"...it is "whitey" that is questioning "why is there a need for more black ministers, are we 'good enough' " as though others are saying they aren't. No one is saying that.

If you re-read the initial post, then you will see that it was clearly stated that there are least three church plants that will not go forward until black senior pastors are found. How can that not be read that "white is not good enough."

I assume that people decide to plant churches where they believe the gospel is not being proclaimed properly and the flocks are not being shepherded properly. If this is the case, then the stance stated in the OP says, this condition will continue until black pastors are found. This does not imply that whitey cannot do a proper job?

They are merely looking at ways to reach out to various communities.

They are looking for ways that do not include whitey. If it could, then why make him off limits to pastoring in said area?

ONE of those ways is to look for ministers from that same cultural understanding and background to work directly with these people. There is a reason for it. It's not because "whitey is the bane of all their troubles"...it's because they need someone that UNDERSTANDS the issues in THAT community. A church isn't JUST meeting spiritual needs...many times it's also meeting social, physical, and relational needs as well.

So it is inherently impossible for whitey to understand the plight of various black communities? White communities don't have social, physical, and relational needs as well, so potential white pastors have no clue?

So please, please, please stop being defensive about it. Please TRY to understand that there are culturally relevant ISSUES that not everyone is capable of helping their flock deal with.

I have no disagreement that some people cannot cross certain cultural issues. However that is not a racial issue.

If it is, then if a black seminary trained gospel preaching potential pastor, could be passed over for a middle class white flock because of cultural issues and no one bat an eye. Yeah, I have a bridge in New York to sell you if you believe such to be the case.

Black people do not inhabit some super strange alternative universe that can only be understood by other black people. We may tend to have different false gods that we deal with, but the gospel is the gospel, not a black gospel vs. a white gospel.

-----Added 6/3/2009 at 06:02:46 EST-----

Please read the following in its entirety. This should help with the discussion. I believe the issue is Black leadership over worship styles.

Dear Friend

When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6

There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.

Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?

I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.

What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.

If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.

In His Service,

Plummer

Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator

I am not understanding the differences between traditional black, inner city and multi ethnic? Wouldn't everyone want a multi ethnic church?

Next, what is the problem with a white lead multi ethnic church? Does Tim Keller really have a problem finding non-white people to attend his church?

CT

 

[LadyFlynt]

Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out.

I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.

 

[BJClark]

LadyFlynt;

I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.

Why not?

 

[LadyFlynt]

LadyFlynt;

I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.

Why not?

My husband's response is (because trying to explain it was like trying to explain what blue is to someone blind from birth): Go there for yourself. There is no way to explain it online. It's not simple. When it boils down to it, be prepared for a church fire and a dead pastor.


There are some places you can have a white pastor in a black church, most places in the US, but there are some places that you simply can NOT. East St Louis, currently, you may luck out. Venice and Brooklyn, it will not, cannot happen.

 

[ChristianTrader]

Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out.

I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.

What part of your post containing the answers did I chose to leave out? Answer: there was not one.

There is no reason to question my integrity because you cannot express yourself properly or you dislike being on the losing side of a discussion.

CT

 

[SemperEruditio]

or you dislike being on the losing side of a discussion

What are we to win or lose? What is the prize?

This discussion is about African American leadership and how by having more of it the Church will be encouraged and grow with more people of diverse backgrounds. African American leadership does not invalidate White leadership nor supplant but adds to it. This is not an either/or but a both/and. We here can very easily monday-morning-quarterback what "should, could, would..." be done but in the end it is those who actually go out and accept the call and do the work of church planting. Wy Plummer has met with these men and hears their cries from the trenches for what they need. White men have said that they will not go into an area because it will essentially be a waste of time without some African American representation. This representation cannot be in the form of the worship leader or some other stereotypical position. It has to be a Black face Black/Brown people can point to and relate with who stands at the pulpit.

Regeneration is not sanctification. Just because a person is now a believer does not mean that they are now free from their sins of racial prejudice. Whites and Blacks are both guilty of racial prejudice. The call for African American leadership is not because of the racial prejudice of Whites in the pews but of African Americans. The lack of African Americans in the pulpits in conservative churches is because of HISTORICAL racial prejudice by White seminaries. So the sins of slavery continue, however not so much in overt or even covert racism by Whites but in the suspicion of both cultures against the other. This suspicion is in so much that it is part of the ethos of American culture. This suspicion has to be addressed.

Knowing that, do we just sit back and say, "Just preach the Gospel," and send man after man to areas that are not rejecting the Message but the messenger? I have stated on PB that I believe God has placed us Black/Brown brothers and sisters in the PCA in order that we speak to unregenerate Black/Brown people and get them to church as well as befriend our White brothers & sisters at church. We are ambassadors of Christ and have to deal with the culture and its suspicious ethos. How that is combatted in the Black/Brown community is by Black/Brown people hearing the message from Black/Brown pastors. The message is the same but the messenger is different. Eventually listening to the Gospel under a Black pastor will lead to listening to the messages of Whites and realizing that it is the message not the messenger that is important. However they cannot reach this level of sanctification, if there is such a thing as a "level of sanctification," without going through the others.

I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply...

 

[Wayne]

Frank:

Thanks to you and Rae for dragging this back to the original topic.

And on your latest paragraph:

"I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply"​

...I wonder if anyone here can tell us more about how wonderfully well the Jackson State RUF group was made to feel welcome and included in everything at the recent RUF conference? I only heard a very brief bit about it, so don't have details.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out.

I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.

What part of your post containing the answers did I chose to leave out? Answer: there was not one.

There is no reason to question my integrity because you cannot express yourself properly or you dislike being on the losing side of a discussion.

CT

If this is how you are viewing the conversation, then I'm sorry to hear that. Your focus is not where it should be as it's not a win/lose conversation. I'm not out to "win" anything. The facts are facts. There are some things that cannot be fully expressed in this medium of communication. It is obvious from your responses that you have neither lived in or near Venice and Brooklyn, IL. If you had, you would understand. The fact is, it would be VERY unwise to put a white pastor there and I DARE YOU to find a white pastor that would be agreeable to moving his family there (and I mean moving them INTO those neighbourhoods, not nearby suburbia).

I have to wonder if there aren't several reasons that we don't have a greater diversity of ethnicity (and curious as to socioeconomic backgrounds) within the Reformed Pastorate. It would be an interesting topic to pursue.

Frank:

Thanks to you and Rae for dragging this back to the original topic.

And on your latest paragraph:

"I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply"​

...I wonder if anyone here can tell us more about how wonderfully well the Jackson State RUF group was made to feel welcome and included in everything at the recent RUF conference? I only heard a very brief bit about it, so don't have details.

Could you please clarify, I am unaware of this event.

 

[ChristianTrader]

LadyFlynt,
My focus was on your claim that I somehow left things out in my response to you in order to promote my viewpoint. I do not leave things out of posts. I always answer posts completely in order to maintain context.

If the medium is inadequate then say that, not that I am somehow leaving out various parts of your posts in order to make you look bad.

There is no reason to go Holier than thou at this point, after you made unfounded accusations.

The topic is interesting, if we can actually stay on it.

CT

 

[kceaster]

Perhaps this will help, perhaps not.

As I see it, and not really me, but the Bible; but are we not all members of the same covenant? Really, we can talk about white culture and black culture until we are all BLUE in the face (pun intended). But what we need to capture is a covenantal culture. In the covenant, the differences between races and ethnic peoples are erased forever!!! In the covenant, we should all see the oneness Paul talks about in Ephesians 4:4-6. In the covenant, we should not be separated by anything pertaining to this world.

You may say, that's fine for you, you like your worship because you're white. It's right up your alley. But can we really say that? Don't we all come to Mt. Zion? Don't we all get invited to a preview of the wedding feast? Isn't this the worship of God? Doesn't he provide everything we need to worship Him aright? Shouldn't I be comfortable in any place the Lord calls me to worship? And why is my comfort important? Why should I be offended if the saints don't welcome me as I want to be welcomed? God calls us to worship, we're not calling Him. If my perspective is white, black, yellow, or green, I'm not being called to worship by my God and savior, I'm calling myself. I am making the terms. If we're going to Mt. Zion, I can't say to any brother or sister, I don't want to go there on your bus.

Additionally, isn't the segregation of races and ethnic groups really saying to the hand, I don't need you. Isn't it withdrawing the right hand of fellowship? This is shameful within the church.

But just because someone offends me, does not mean I need to be offended. And just because someone doesn't accept me, doesn't mean I'm not accepted.

These differences are petty and small and do not see the long view or really understand the purpose of worship. We are rehearsing on earth, what is a reality in Heaven. At the wedding feast of the Lamb, there will be only those dressed in wedding clothes. There won't be white men, brown men, yellow men, etc. We're ONE bride, for pete's sake!

Let's reclaim the transcending truth of the covenant. Let's adopt the covenant culture instead of holding onto the stupidity of prejudice.

If you can't live in my culture and I can't live in yours, let's both move and live in the covenant.

In Christ,

KC