PB on the Sabbath?

[VictorBravo]

For the sabbatarian what the Lord's Day is not centered around, nor should it consist of is:

1. Doing our own pleasure (i.e. things that are lawful on other days - recreation, sports, yada yada yada)
2. Doing our own ways
3. Finding our own pleasure (instead, taking up the necessary and commanded duties for the Lord's Day, which will easily fill it and keep us from straying)
4. Speaking our own words (instead, taking up the non stated worship times in godly conversation)
​

To call or event hint that the above 4 principles legalism is to call the Scripture's prohibitions legalistic. To engage in causing others unnecessary work on the Lord's Day is not keeping the sabbath holy (set apart, different from the other 6 days, etc.).

.......Very fun Confessional Sabbatarian person here!.........

I think I may be reading the above wrong....

In the list of 4 things that mentioned in the quote above, aren't these things prohibited every day of the week?
For instance, being in the Spirit of Christ I would be putting others before myself, doing and saying what God desires in his commandments.

Not necessarily prohibited. Many places in Scripture acknowledge and commend pleasure in fruits of labor, recreation, etc. One example:

Ecc. 5:18 Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it is his portion.

 

[Ne Oublie]

For the sabbatarian what the Lord's Day is not centered around, nor should it consist of is:

1. Doing our own pleasure (i.e. things that are lawful on other days - recreation, sports, yada yada yada)
2. Doing our own ways
3. Finding our own pleasure (instead, taking up the necessary and commanded duties for the Lord's Day, which will easily fill it and keep us from straying)
4. Speaking our own words (instead, taking up the non stated worship times in godly conversation)
​

To call or event hint that the above 4 principles legalism is to call the Scripture's prohibitions legalistic. To engage in causing others unnecessary work on the Lord's Day is not keeping the sabbath holy (set apart, different from the other 6 days, etc.).

.......Very fun Confessional Sabbatarian person here!.........

I think I may be reading the above wrong....

In the list of 4 things that mentioned in the quote above, aren't these things prohibited every day of the week?
For instance, being in the Spirit of Christ I would be putting others before myself, doing and saying what God desires in his commandments.

Dear Mr. G.

The emphasis is that these things are lawful on other days. In other words, I'm not talking about things which are sinful in and of themselves. Rather, things such as recreation, watching/playing sports, enjoying a movie, working in your place and station, that do not contradict the Law of God. Things which are lawful on the six days for which God has given them. I hope that clears things up.

Thank you for the clarification. The main subjects in your 4 points(minus the ie's and the parenthesis) made me think too far and I needed to keep near.

That being said, I praise God for the new heart that He creates that loves, enjoys and glorifies Him, that delights in his Law and walketh not astray!

I totally appreciate the moderators of this board, good examples in so many ways and I am willing to bet that some may be kin to Stonewall Jackson!

 

[py3ak]

I can pick an apple on Saturday and eat it Sunday.

You can pick and eat an apple on Sunday - from your neighbor's property, Luke 6:1.

 

[matt01]

Forgive me for not having read all of the other 41 posts. I don't have access to the Internet on the Lord's Day, so it isn't really an issue for me...I have thought in the past that it seemed a bit uneven in the application of the rules around the 4th Commandment and posting on the Lord's Day. Some threads are shut down, and others allowed to run free. But then some individual threads are stopped/moderated due to being too man-centered. It is hard to know what is acceptable. It would be nice to have a clear understanding of what would be allowed (as far as posting) on the Lord's Day, though this may have already been made clear somewhere that I haven't seen.

 

[Prufrock]

[moderator]

Matt (et al), the problem with such a request is that we simply do not have any hard and fast rules about what we allow posted on the Sabbath, and what we do not. A few things to remember:

1.) A thread being closed on the Sabbath is not a "punishment," or a "you're doing something wrong," or any other such statement; it is simply a case-by-case decision by either one moderator or several. Yes -- it is subjective. It might be helpful to think of it like this: imagine you are talking with friends and church members after morning worship at a member's home; you are enjoying and being refreshed by the fellowship. At some point in the conversation, someone might kindly and humbly request that the topic be changed so as to be more conducive to the Sabbath day's activities. You might think that the topic is fine, but out of respect to the one requesting, I'm sure you will submit to their request and probably gladly return to more "spiritual" discussions (who wouldn't enjoy this on the Sabbath anyway?). Now, especially if that person making the request is the one in whose home the fellowship is taking place, all the more would you kindly submit to his perhaps subjective request. Think of the Puritanboard as "the house" of the administrators (with help from the moderators). If the owner would rather not have a certain conversation in his house on the Sabbath day, the freely invited guests should a.) kindly respect his request, and b.) not feel put out or rejected by the request.

2.) As Wayne alluded to earlier, it is a sign of respect to those who provide the services of the board to be circumspect when posting on the Sabbath: thus, even if there is a sort of conversation you would freely have in your own home on the Sabbath, since we all now know that the owners of the board have a certain understanding of the Sabbath and would rather not spend their Sabbath afternoon moderating threads; because of these things, we should all ask not just do *I* think this is appropriate for the Sabbath, but is this conversation how the *owners* of the board want it to be used on the Sabbath?

3.) Finally, though this is a dead horse, let's all remember that this board *is*, in fact, governed by the Westminster Standards and its understanding of the Sabbath day.

Blessings,
Paul
[/moderator]

 

[Idelette]

Good points, that a lot of activity on the Board on the Lord's day is unnecessary and does not reflect on the worship of the Lord.
If each of us would keep that in mind, the moderators would themselves be better able to enjoy that day.

"Do I really need to post this thread, or reply to this thread today?" "Can it wait?"

Thanks, Wayne. That summarized my personal view too.

Before I became a moderator here, I actually rarely even turned on the computer on the Lord's Day. It wasn't a legalism thing at all.

Rather, the computer, for me, was a portal to all the world and all its distractions. I didn't think it was evil or that there needed to be a rule about it. Instead, it was more like the background noise of a wall of blaring TVs you might find at one of the big box megastores. It was something I wanted rest from.

Similarly, many times, when I am among the saints on the Lord's Day someone wants to talk politics or law. I try to be gracious and gentle and say, "not today." I don't impute sin on their part, but remind them that I have limits put there by my own conscience--and, selfishly, for my own relief.

This is a round about way of saying that not everyone who takes a high view of the Lord's Day is trying to bind someone else. I think it is more along the lines of wanting to show the joy of peace and rest that they occasionally experience.

This is more along the lines of what I was speaking of. It's not that I was trying to bind anyone's conscience, and I truly hope that my post was not interpreted as such! For me, I would rather rest from all my daily activities that are truly not necessary. It's not that I have an aversion to technology .....in a certain sense those things are necessary and are conducive to worship. (i.e. having light in a sanctuary and heat during the winter etc.)

But, personally, I find that we are so preoccupied with many things and are pulled in a dozen different directions daily. We have so many responsibilities and recreations around us at all times. And I often hear people tell me how they don't have time for prayer or they don't have time to read Scripture, etc. And my thought is, we do have the time!.....God has set apart a day for us to both rest from our daily labors as well as the noise of the world and to focus on Him exclusively! It is our joy and our delight, and should be the highlight of our week....the day that we most look forward to! I often think of how the Puritans spoke of the Sabbath as being a picture of Heaven and our eternal rest with Him. That when we meet as a congregation we get a glimpse of the throng in heaven worshipping and feasting with Him! And so, I would rather focus my Lord's Day on enjoying Him and meeting with His people rather than doing anything else! Not trying to bind anyone's conscience, just expressing my own convictions!

 

[kvanlaan]

It might be helpful to think of it like this: imagine you are talking with friends and church members after morning worship at a member's home; you are enjoying and being refreshed by the fellowship. At some point in the conversation, someone might kindly and humbly request that the topic be changed so as to be more conducive to the Sabbath day's activities. You might think that the topic is fine, but out of respect to the one requesting, I'm sure you will submit to their request and probably gladly return to more "spiritual" discussions (who wouldn't enjoy this on the Sabbath anyway?). Now, especially if that person making the request is the one in whose home the fellowship is taking place, all the more would you kindly submit to his perhaps subjective request. Think of the Puritanboard as "the house" of the administrators (with help from the moderators). If the owner would rather not have a certain conversation in his house on the Sabbath day, the freely invited guests should a.) kindly respect his request, and b.) not feel put out or rejected by the request.

Bang on. Thank you.

I always think of it thusly: If you fine folks all went to my church and I had you over for coffee, what would I feel is appropriate conversation during your visit? I would not talk business unless it was to help a brother out of a problem (ox out of a ditch) and I think that the moderation/decisions on which forums to close on the PB is just that.

I don't mind if someone comes to me and says, 'Brother, it is the Sabbath; how does this conversation serve the Lord?' I am in a church that sends elders to my home to check on my family and their spiritual well-being; why would I disdain it on the PB when I am so thankful for it at home?

 

[BlackCalvinist]

I'm going to have a convo with my pastor on this.

 

[TimV]

Deu 23:24 "If you go into your neighbor's vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag.
Deu 23:25 If you go into your neighbor's standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor's standing grain.

Ruben, the law, which Christ elaborated on to show it applied every day was for refreshment while traveling. There is no contradiction between that law and the law against harvesting manna on the Sabbath. My example was making provision for eating during the work week. I could eat an apple while walking to church, but not harvest, i.e. but them in a basket, and even if it were my own tree I couldn't harvest, i.e. pick for storing. The story in Luke deals with a different law than harvesting. And I'd still like to see who thinks they don't pay for cooking fuel on the Sabbath.

 

[py3ak]

I didn't say there was a contradiction. You pointed out that you could pick an apple on Saturday - I pointed out that you could pick it on Sunday, too. Unless you disagree with that, I'm not sure what we're discussing.

 

[Kevin]

I enjoyed the back-and-forth by Timv & josh on the gas & electricity issue.

And I think that it is one of the most important issues to determine our view of the Sabbath. Because if Tim is correct (& I am convinced that he is) then Every Single "strict" Sabbath keeper BREAKS THE SABBATH every week.

There is no way around it. "Using" is purchasing them.

Would you say eating in a resturant *if you payed with a gift card* was OK? Because they were "cooking the food anyway"? And I "only paid for it when I purchased the gift card last Monday"? If you would consider this a Sabbath violation, then there is no escaping the logic. Utility use on the Sabbath IS a violation. Period.

We don't recognise this because utility use is so mundane that we dont think about it. It is a seamless part of our modern life.

Now I do NOT advocate not using the furnace or the electricity on Sunday. i just think that this exercise in logic & causistry helps us pick out how inconsistent our modern interpretations of the scriptures & the WCF can be.

Don't worry. The Reformed World is full of examples of people declaring that their own version of the reformed tradition is "the One True Faith".

 

[Mushroom]

Question 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?

Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

Heat and cooking are not necessities? I would submit that they are, and so ought to be done, but in such a way as to minimize their causing others to work on that day if one holds a 'strict sabbatarian' view. I heat my home with wood, so I can stack a pile of adequate size outside the door on Saturday to provide for Sunday, but I still need to load it in the stove. I also need light and water on Sunday, as did the Israelites of old, and providing for those things in a preparatory way so as to minimize unnecessary work on the Sabbath was not prohibited. They were not required to sit in the dark and cold and fast for the day. So it appears that one can be a 'strict sabbatarian' and use utilities. I buy my wood on a week day, yet burn it on Sunday, and I pay for my electricity on a week day, and use it on Sunday. Why would anyone make a distinction between the two, unless they were attempting to find some 'chink in the armor' with which to accuse their brethren?

Please note that I have not stated my views of Sabbath-keeping, only asserted that the idea that using utilities by a 'strict sabbatarian' is a hypocrisy is erroneous. Be careful about any assumptions you might make. You may be surprised.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

Moderator

Time to put this one to bed.

/Moderator

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I've been pretty busy keeping my driveway dug out and working from home for the past week. That, plus my desire to avoid engaging in pointless disputes keeps me pretty silent on a lot of threads.

Another Elder and I were sitting outside my home yesterday and I was talking to him about the Sabbath.

I think the man of flesh within us tells us that, in reality, Christ didn't have to die for our sins. They're pretty minor, after all. Nowhere is that more evident when it comes to the 4th Commandment.

Somehow, most of us have convinced ourselves that we can't possibly keep the other 9 commandments but, when it comes to the 4th, it's a piece of cake: it's whatever we believe honors God on His day. Any suggestion otherwise is, by definition, "legalism" because it is stricter than our own.

Have any of us ever repented to the Lord for being breakers of His Law on this point? Are we convinced that we've ever truly kept this Law in practice and in heart? The moment the challenge even remotely arises that we might be Sabbath breakers our hackles go up. Why? Because we're offended by the idea that we needed Christ to atone for our violation of the Lord's Day.

It's not mine to render judgment for another's Sabbath observance and you won't see me spending much time parsing "...does this cross the line..." type of questions. Frankly, if you have to ask the question whether you should use the PuritanBoard on the Sabbath and then try and corner another man on his lack of Sabbath observance compared to your own then I would suggest that you might need to be a little more self-effacing with respect to the Law.

If you're convinced that using the Internet on the Sabbath is a violation of the Law of God then, in faith, do not use it.

As for your other personal scruples on the Sabbath, there are things that you and your household will observe or not unto the Lord. Remain satisfied, in the liberty of your conscience, that you are honoring the Lord's Day. Remain ever willing, however, to be sanctified by God that even your conscience might be trained that things you once believed honored the Lord do not, in fact, do so. Liberty, however, does not require that you convince another of your own scruple nor do you need to get bent out of shape that another's scruple steps on your own. You don't, after all, have to spend your Lord's Day here but, if you do, then you'll have to learn how to bear in longsuffering and patient love toward those whose views might be stricter than your own just as you would be expected to do the same if you spent the day in another's house.

Blessings!