PB on the Sabbath?

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AThornquist

Puritan Board Doctor
How is the non-necessity of the Puritan Board acceptable on a Sabbath when watching a football game isn't? People must work and provide the means for electricity, internet access, etc. for our PB access and thus work for this means of enjoyment. This appears inconsistent to me but I would happily be corrected if someone is willing.
 
The Sabbath, internet and the PB

This is a spin off on a legitimate question that happened to be in a thread that took the legalism path and derailed. (NOTE: Please do not try to bring a legalism argument to this thread or it will be shut down as well)

The question for this thread is not to stir up anything, but to answer a question that a number of folks in the other thread wanted to understand, myself included. This was the question from another PB member. ( name omitted for safety of PB brother):lol:

Okay, I can already anticipate some of the backlash, but I ask this in all sincerity: I am one still working through what is/isn't permissable on the Lord's day. I can understand the reasoning behind not watching trivial sports/entertainment on the sabbath, but how does getting on the internet to complain about said watching of sports on the Lord's day honor God? I imagine some will argue that logging onto the Puritanboard on Sundays constitutes Christian fellowship, but then what of the argument that watching the ballgame with brothers and sisters in Christ is Christian fellowship?


This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy. - WCF 21:8


If it is argued that football watching does not fall under the standard of the WCF, then please explain how chatting online about football does? Again, I am not positing this position for the sake of "stirring the pot" but rather to genuinely better understand what it means to keep the sabbath
I wanted to put up this question again because I think it is a great one for clarity. I think he raises a very good question and I have been wondering about the seeming inconsistency in use of the PB on the sabbath myself for a while now but thought it must just be me. Would anyone like to shed to light on this for us?

This was one Sabbatarian response- This I understand because it will not include the internet, facebook, PB etc.
I think you do bring up a valid point. I hold to the original WCF and am a Sabbatarian. I believe in setting apart and observing the Lord's Day, and that includes setting it apart from all recreation and entertainment. I'm sure there will be other people on here, that can give their reasons. But, personally, for the last couple of months this is something that has really been convicting me. I know in the past, I just followed the typical arguments....that you can do edifying things online such as listen to sermons or read things that would encourage spiritually etc. But, the more I think about this, the more I believe it is important to find that edification within the immediate body of Christ (namely your church) and spend time fellowshipping and learning with them. I know for me, personally, the Puritan Board can be encouraging and edifying but at the end of the day, it is more entertainment and recreation than anything else. I say this, because I could be doing other things that are more profitable such as reading Scripture, praying, reading spiritual books, encouraging those within my church etc. And I would rather spend the Lord's Day with His people, rather than waste precious time online. I'm online almost every single day, and although I do try to spend that time productively, it is still something that I do daily and is really unnecessary to do on the Lord's Day. And the Lord's Day is not just the time we spend at church, but is the entire day. I cannot speak for others on the Board, but I can tell you that this is something that has been convicting me, and I've decided to refrain from using the internet at all on the Lord's Day, unless there is a genuine need.

What about Sabbatarians that do post on facebook and the PB? How does that work?
 
You will get some good answers here.

Recreation and the seeking of it, such as watching, playing or talking about football as a focus of the day is not the same thing as discussing God's Word and God's ways.

Granted, not every post or question is strictly on that, but engaging in a discussion on-line about obeying the fourth commandment of God can be both a useful and necessary incident of keeping the sabbath.

So, the heart of the fourth commandment is to "cease" from our ordinary labors and seeking entertainment and "set apart" all the day to prioritize the worship of God, in thought, word and deed. Talking about and discussing biblical topics seems to fit within that.
 
You will get some good answers here.

Recreation and the seeking of it, such as watching, playing or talking about football as a focus of the day is not the same thing as discussing God's Word and God's ways.

Granted, not every post or question is strictly on that, but engaging in a discussion on-line about obeying the fourth commandment of God can be both a useful and necessary incident of keeping the sabbath.

So, the heart of the fourth commandment is to "cease" from our ordinary labors and seeking entertainment and "set apart" all the day to prioritize the worship of God, in thought, word and deed. Talking about and discussing biblical topics seems to fit within that.


So is it our focus that is most important then? There are many times when I read through the PB for a sort of sanctified entertainment, whereas times like yesterday the Super Bowl was on and we had great fellowship and discussions, mostly not about the game itself. That would make the Super Bowl more acceptable to have on the screen than the Puritan Board while it is the Sabbath, given my focus?
 
Granted, there are some "gray" areas because keeping the sabbath involves thoughts, words and deeds.

Ordinarily (using the word "ordinarily" because there are unusual circumstances that are necessity or mercy), the fourth command requires:

1) prepare in advance (to minimize ordinary distractions)
2) abstain from work
3) abstain from recreation/entertainment

So that the worship of God, individual, family and corporate may be prioritized all the day with exceptions for works of necessity and mercy.

Engaging someone to understand a spiritual truth does not seem to be prohibited, but rather encouraged. But using it as a way to focus on and discuss sports, for example would not because the substance is not valid for the focus of the sabbath.

You're right also, our minds wander, our motives are wrong. Part of the discipline developed, which the Westminster Larger Catechism summarizes the doctrine of scripture to say helps us keep ALL the other commandments better, is to learn to focus on God and set aside the things that will necessarily consume us on other days. (Remember, half of the fourth commandment is to work six days).


Westminster Larger Catechism

Question 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?

Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

....

Question 119: What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.

....

Question 121: Why is the word Remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?

Answer: The word Remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of the great benefit of remembering it, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it, and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption, which contain a short abridgment of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, and yet it restrains our natural liberty in things at other times lawful; that it comes but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and too often take off our minds from thinking of it, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it;and that Satan with his instruments much labor to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it, to bring in all irreligion and impiety.
 
AThornquist
We apparently cross-posted :) This is an issue on several hearts and minds, it seems. PB on the Sabbath

Haha! Yes we did.

Yes, I would really like to understand the thinking on the difference. I *almost* get it if the only postings were on doctrine, but I also see the PB as more of the weekly activity as noted in this response
I know in the past, I just followed the typical arguments....that you can do edifying things online such as listen to sermons or read things that would encourage spiritually etc. But, the more I think about this, the more I believe it is important to find that edification within the immediate body of Christ (namely your church) and spend time fellowshipping and learning with them. I know for me, personally, the Puritan Board can be encouraging and edifying but at the end of the day, it is more entertainment and recreation than anything else. I say this, because I could be doing other things that are more profitable such as reading Scripture, praying, reading spiritual books, encouraging those within my church etc. And I would rather spend the Lord's Day with His people, rather than waste precious time online. I'm online almost every single day, and although I do try to spend that time productively, it is still something that I do daily and is really unnecessary to do on the Lord's Day. And the Lord's Day is not just the time we spend at church, but is the entire day.
 
Engaging someone to understand a spiritual truth does not seem to be prohibited, but rather encouraged. But using it as a way to focus on and discuss sports, for example would not because the substance is not valid for the focus of the sabbath

Ok, like I said in my identical thread to Andrews, I almost get it if the only postings were ONLY on Doctrine (which not all are) but I also see it as something that we do daily so shouldn't we not post to Facebook and the PB on the sabbath at all by that line of setting the day apart unlike the rest of the week?
 
A moderator closed the other superbowl thread for a cooling off. Let the moderators moderate please and determine when it is appropriate to re-engage the Sabbath issue. Thanks.
 
Engaging someone to understand a spiritual truth does not seem to be prohibited, but rather encouraged. But using it as a way to focus on and discuss sports, for example would not because the substance is not valid for the focus of the sabbath

Ok, like I said in my identical thread to Andrews, I almost get it if the only postings were ONLY on Doctrine (which not all are) but I also see it as something that we do daily so shouldn't we not post to Facebook and the PB on the sabbath at all by that line of setting the day apart unlike the rest of the week?

I see this thread has come through a lot of twists and turns, so please forgive me if I'm not addressing this based on past context.

It is a difficult thing in a context like this where spontaneous discussion can certainly wander at any time, but particularly on the sabbath where we are commanded to "cease" and "set apart." I'm thankful we have moderators who take this seriously, difficult and imperfect as observing this may be.:)

If I'm understanding some of the discussion that went on earlier on this topic, it might be helpful to understand that "fellowship" in and of itself is not a basis for keeping the fourth commandment. So, the fact that one may need and desire "fellowship" with Christians does not mean that they may think about, talk about (let alone play) football on the Lord's Day in the context of "fellowship" and obey the fourth commandment.

Sinners that we all are, we very easily rationalize our disobedience.

And by virtue of the remnant of the fallen nature that is still in us, we are not in that at all willing to suffer any inconvenience in order to obey and please our God.

The "remembrance" part of the sabbath is quickly blotted out when the focus goes to the ordinary activities of recreation, entertainment, amusement that are fine on the other days- God generously gives time for them then but calls us to "break" that pattern, to "cease" and come apart from them toward Him in a way not possible the other days of the week.

While we cannot ever base scriptural truth on a practical basis, I can only observe that our neurotic preoccupation with work, money and entertaining ourselves every minute of every day is a reason there is so much distress in our generation. It can even affect one's health.

God calls explicitly, and by His example at Creation to break this pattern, one day in seven. He blesses those who do.

Let me also add, if I'm following the specific applications here, I don't think the technology itself (e.g. Facebook, Twitter, Puritan Board) automatically violates the fourth commandment, but it is their substance. If they are a means to understanding a passage of Scripture better, for example, they can be useful even on the Lord's Day. If they are a means to prideful argumentation about our rights to focus on entertaining ourselves around a super sporting event, they are not.

There certainly can be a lot of distractions on all these media, and wisdom must be applied, weaknesses understood and prayed for, but that does not in itself render them wrong.
 
If gas and electricity are free, they you don't buy gas and electricity on the Sabbath. If you pay for gas and electricity, then if you use gas and electricity on the Sabbath you are engaging in in a commercial transaction.

It's not true that if gas and electricity are used in hospitals on the Sabbath, then all the gas and electricity go on anyway. So if you don't watch TV, fine! Follow your conscience. But don't bind mine if you do any cooking other than wtih fuel you've gathered during the working week, or switch on a light, an electric blanket or heat your house.
 
Josh makes a good point in that the internet involves using infrastructures that are there because they are needed to support works of necessity and mercy. On the other hand broadcast and cable entertainment require people to be working (yes, present tense!) and there is no pretext of it being a work of necessity or mercy.
 
No. You don't purchase those things on the Lord's Day. The Israelites didn't gather the manna they ate on the Lord's Day. They worked and gathered it on the other days. But did that mean they couldn't eat it on the sabbath, since they had worked to get it on the other days? No.

Yes, you do. That's what meters are for, and most people here have them. And we're not talking about mana, we're talking about gathering fuel.

(Numbers 15:32) - "Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; 34and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses."

I can pick an apple on Saturday and eat it Sunday. I'm not buying anything. I can heat my house with a stove with wood I cut up on Saturday, and burn it on Sunday. That's how I lived for 2 years in Calaveras County. But Josh, you are buying electricity and gas if you use them on Sunday, and you're buying them on Sunday. Batteries were what we used in New Guinea, and everyone here can do the same. It just costs more money than people want to spend, so for pragmatic reasons of cost, most of us purposely choose to buy "sticks" on the Sabbath.

I would be interested in hearing about church disciplinary actions anyone knows about in NAPARC churches dealing with Sabbath breaking. I'm sure there have been some, and discussing those cases as they relate to the Standards would be instructive.
 
Would your gas and electric bill be the same if you didn't use either on Sunday? ;-)
 
No, they'd most likely be more, due to the energy starting them back up. However, that's irrelevant. The "grid" is "always on," and there are professions of necessity and mercy that require this "always on" flow. There's no "extra work" in turning on the whole grid. It's primarily automated.

Josh, if YOU, personally, did not use gas and electricity on Sundays, would your bill be more, less or the same.
 
Would anyone else here care to take a stab at this? If you don't use gas or electricity every Sunday will the bills be more, less or the same.
 
Since it looks like this thread is going to be shut down soon, I wanted to Thank Scott and Josh for their perspective on the OP question. I am not sure I see it the same way but I wanted to understand the viewpoint.
This from Scott was very helpful.
Let me also add, if I'm following the specific applications here, I don't think the technology itself (e.g. Facebook, Twitter, Puritan Board) automatically violates the fourth commandment, but it is their substance. If they are a means to understanding a passage of Scripture better, for example, they can be useful even on the Lord's Day. If they are a means to prideful argumentation about our rights to focus on entertaining ourselves around a super sporting event, they are not.
It was actually the use of PB to make a point (on Sunday) about how wrong others were to watch the SB that got me as prideful and contradicting of the view of the sabbath.

I am not a sabbatarian but I find myself leaning that direction and things like using the PB for stuff like that (or at all since we can do this 6 other days of the week) seems hypocritical and that makes me re-think my leaning.
 
Since it looks like this thread is going to be shut down soon, I wanted to Thank Scott and Josh for their perspective on the OP question. I am not sure I see it the same way but I wanted to understand the viewpoint.
This from Scott was very helpful.
Let me also add, if I'm following the specific applications here, I don't think the technology itself (e.g. Facebook, Twitter, Puritan Board) automatically violates the fourth commandment, but it is their substance. If they are a means to understanding a passage of Scripture better, for example, they can be useful even on the Lord's Day. If they are a means to prideful argumentation about our rights to focus on entertaining ourselves around a super sporting event, they are not.
It was actually the use of PB to make a point (on Sunday) about how wrong others were to watch the SB that got me as prideful and contradicting of the view of the sabbath.

I am not a sabbatarian but I find myself leaning that direction and things like using the PB for stuff like that (or at all since we can do this 6 other days of the week) seems hypocritical and that makes me re-think my leaning.

:ditto: Judson nails it. I was the one who brought up the original question in this thread. It had nothing to do with being on the PuritanBoard, being on the internet, or using electricity. This thread in question was specifically devoted to bashing the watching of the Super Bowl. I actually have no problem with that, except that it was done on the Sabbath! As I mentioned in the original question, I am trying my best to learn how to properly honor God on Sundays and I would probably agree that the Super Bowl should be skipped. However, what doesn't make sense to me is how watching the game on the Sabbath is wrong, but making and participating in a thread about the game is okay. I thought it was completely ironic that the time of the thread shows 5:36, which is right when the game started! I will just be honest here, but I thought the thread came off very self-righteous and hypocritical. Of course, that is how the thread came off to me, so that is why I sincerely asked the question, hoping someone would shed some light on the subject. I mean come on, you cannot honestly tell me that talking about football in a negative light, is still not ultimately talking about football. If I am wrong, then I welcome any correction, but when I read the thread Monday morning, I failed to see how it aligned with the WCF which states,
VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
I don't doubt for a minute that almost every saint here on PB loves God completely and desires to bring Him glory by delighting in His commandments, however I wonder if sometimes we aren't pointing out specks in others eyes, when we have logs in ours (myself included).
 
Would anyone else here care to take a stab at this? If you don't use gas or electricity every Sunday will the bills be more, less or the same.

I dunno, perfessor. Less? And even if you personally didn't pay for it, such as in a situation where utilities are a set price with rent or something, you are causing other people to pay for it, which likewise results in a commercial interaction.



It was actually the use of PB to make a point (on Sunday) about how wrong others were to watch the SB that got me as prideful and contradicting of the view of the sabbath.

Me too. The apparent hypocrisy was frustrating, though a better response on my part would have been much more fitting.

Edit - Meh. Andres summed it up nicely.
 
Joshua, thank you for your well-thought out reply. I can say that in my endeavor to grow in my understanding of the 4th commandment, I doubt anyone here has been more beneficial than yourself.

I mean come on, you cannot honestly tell me that talking about football in a negative light, is still not ultimately talking about football.
This is where, In my humble opinion, the misunderstanding lies. The subject is proper sabbath keeping, and football the example.

I agree that here is where the misunderstanding lies, because I saw the thread as talk of football, when in reality it was discussion of the sabbath. I apologize then for my hasty judgments and erroneous accusations. I am a most wretched man and I think that my struggle with doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord shall never cease until I can see my glorious King face to face.
 
Good points, that a lot of activity on the Board on the Lord's day is unnecessary and does not reflect on the worship of the Lord.
If each of us would keep that in mind, the moderators would themselves be better able to enjoy that day.

"Do I really need to post this thread, or reply to this thread today?" "Can it wait?"
 
:deadhorse: Membership in this board is voluntary, and it is not an authoritative organization that has the ability to bind anyone's conscience. The owners and admins of this board have a particular, confessional view of the Sabbath that the rules reflect, and teaching or arguing against that view is prohibited. Why is this so complicated? Some may disagree with that view, and that has not prevented any from being accepted as a member, but we all agreed to the rules when we joined. There is no reason to take offense or feel put upon if you take a different view, you just have to realize that your view is not that of the board and won't be permitted to be taught or defended.

I have friends and family that view a lot of things that I do that they don't to somehow be an affront or holier-than-thou, such as praying before a meal. They shouldn't feel that what I do is against them, but they also shouldn't expect that I'm going to change that just because they're at my house. I think some we need to have that same kind of respect for the PB rules/standards when participating here if there is an area where we disagree with them. It is pointless and non-productive otherwise.

If your conscience tells you to refrain from PB on the Sabbath, then by all means do so.
 
Good points, that a lot of activity on the Board on the Lord's day is unnecessary and does not reflect on the worship of the Lord.
If each of us would keep that in mind, the moderators would themselves be better able to enjoy that day.

"Do I really need to post this thread, or reply to this thread today?" "Can it wait?"

Thanks, Wayne. That summarized my personal view too.

Before I became a moderator here, I actually rarely even turned on the computer on the Lord's Day. It wasn't a legalism thing at all.

Rather, the computer, for me, was a portal to all the world and all its distractions. I didn't think it was evil or that there needed to be a rule about it. Instead, it was more like the background noise of a wall of blaring TVs you might find at one of the big box megastores. It was something I wanted rest from.

Similarly, many times, when I am among the saints on the Lord's Day someone wants to talk politics or law. I try to be gracious and gentle and say, "not today." I don't impute sin on their part, but remind them that I have limits put there by my own conscience--and, selfishly, for my own relief.

This is a round about way of saying that not everyone who takes a high view of the Lord's Day is trying to bind someone else. I think it is more along the lines of wanting to show the joy of peace and rest that they occasionally experience.
 
While I agree with some of your points Josh, in the fairness of understanding what we are talking about, here was the original post in the coffee shop (not in a Christian walk or Law of God forum)
I refuse to spend a precious evening sitting in front of the TV watching football. Am I the only one out there?

By the way, this is not a condemnation on those who watch it, I just can't bring myself to join in all the hype. (Let's not even mention the fact that it's on Sunday.)

Not breaking the sabbath was a throw in point put in (). Not the main topic of the post. If this was supposed to be a conversation about the 4th commandment, it sure did not look like one. Most of the posts on the sabbath were how folks were not watching and don't like football anyway.

Should we cease from talking about God's Law on the Lord's Day? May it never be so. I could understand your question if the thread was a promotion of the Super Bowl. However, it was about the 4th Commandment, or the propriety of watching such on the Lord's Day, which would be a discussion on proper application of the 4th Commandment

I appreciate the clarification of your intent, I am just saying that it sure did not look like a doctrine discussion of the law of God.

I also want to point out to all that posted that I am not casting any stones in your direction either, I don't know your view of the sabbath and do not hold you to any point. I just think it was crazy to try to make the point of that thread the 4th commandment.
 
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While I agree with some of your points Josh, in the fairness of understanding what we are talking about, here was the original post in the coffee shop (not in a Christian walk or Law of God forum)
I refuse to spend a precious evening sitting in front of the TV watching football. Am I the only one out there?

By the way, this is not a condemnation on those who watch it, I just can't bring myself to join in all the hype. (Let's not even mention the fact that it's on Sunday.)

Not breaking the sabbath was a throw in point put in (). Not the main topic of the post. If this was supposed to be a conversation about the 4th commandment, it sure did not look like one. Most of the posts on the sabbath was how folks were not watching and don't like football anyway.

Should we cease from talking about God's Law on the Lord's Day? May it never be so. I could understand your question if the thread was a promotion of the Super Bowl. However, it was about the 4th Commandment, or the propriety of watching such on the Lord's Day, which would be a discussion on proper application of the 4th Commandment

I appreciate the clarification of your intent, I am just saying that it sure did not look like a doctrine discussion of the law of God.

I also want to point out to all that posted that I am not casting any stones in your direction either, I don't know your view of the sabbath and do not hold you to any point. I just think it was crazy to try to make the point of that thread the 4th commandment.

Judson, I think the primary complaint (at least I take it that way) is that the thread should have been moderated for a different day. I thought so at the time I saw it, but had to leave it, so it didn't get done. Chalk it up to a botch on my part.

Moderation

Everyone: please do not discuss the original thread anymore here. That thread was closed for a reason, even if belated. Carry on with the topic of this thead.
 
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I also wanted to point out that, for me, I do not feel that anyone is wanting to bind my conscience. I was asking the questions because I had.......questions. I wanted to better understand a position that I do not currently hold. That is all. I did not feel threated in any way.

I also was not trying to make anything complicated.

:deadhorse: Membership in this board is voluntary, and it is not an authoritative organization that has the ability to bind anyone's conscience. The owners and admins of this board have a particular, confessional view of the Sabbath that the rules reflect, and teaching or arguing against that view is prohibited. Why is this so complicated?
 
For the sabbatarian what the Lord's Day is not centered around, nor should it consist of is:
1. Doing our own pleasure (i.e. things that are lawful on other days - recreation, sports, yada yada yada)
2. Doing our own ways
3. Finding our own pleasure (instead, taking up the necessary and commanded duties for the Lord's Day, which will easily fill it and keep us from straying)
4. Speaking our own words (instead, taking up the non stated worship times in godly conversation)
To call or event hint that the above 4 principles legalism is to call the Scripture's prohibitions legalistic. To engage in causing others unnecessary work on the Lord's Day is not keeping the sabbath holy (set apart, different from the other 6 days, etc.).

.......Very fun Confessional Sabbatarian person here!:lol:.........

I think I may be reading the above wrong....

In the list of 4 things that mentioned in the quote above, aren't these things prohibited every day of the week?
For instance, being in the Spirit of Christ I would be putting others before myself, doing and saying what God desires in his commandments.
 
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
Isa 58:13

Robert, given the context, I'd say Josh has it right.
 
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