Passover Family Ceremony

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Our family gathers together around this time of year to cut the throat of a lamb and splash its blood around, but we don't celebrate Passover per se.
 
Another thought, along the lines of some things that have been said already.

Why are such rituals needed for those who walk in the light of Christ? If they aren't "worship", what are they? Nobody I have *ever* spoken to has ever given me any shred of hope that this might be practiced in a way that is NOT "worship". Churches hold special services wherein the Seder is practiced, and it very explicitly IS worship. I would ask you if you think that practicing the Seder, but arguing that what is being done is NOT "worship", is not very like the case of those who like images purporting to represent Christ as part of their worship life, but claim that they are not engaging in "worship" as they use those images in their reflections/meditations.

So I ask again - are the commanded practices of the Christian church vis a vis worship - the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and Baptism - not sufficiently "helpful" for us, that we have to dig up something from a pre-Christian age to feel "more special"? This is very hard for me to accept - it's like adding incense and candles to turn the sanctuary of the church into a "more special" worship atmosphere, and to bring those elements into worship as a means of symbolizing things like prayers, the sacrifice of worship, the light of the world, etc., so that worshippers feel "more worshipful". Isn't what Christ commanded sufficient? Why must we continually be looking for "deeper personal experiences" through ritual?

These things mystify me, quite frankly.

:applause:
 
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Our family gathers together around this time of year to cut the throat of a lamb and splash its blood around, but we don't celebrate Passover per se.

Awesome! Are Exclusive Hyssopists? or do you allow for non-inspired plants?
 
I have (in long past past) participated in such Dispensational rituals. I have repented.
 
...is the practice consistent with the prescribed manner of considering these things as revealed in Scripture?
So, if I am reading you correctly, which I may not be, then anything that reminds of of some "worship service" but is not "true worship" is off limits. Is that correct?

I think such considerations require, at best, extreme care. When we obey our innate religious impulse, it needs to be governed against abuse and misuse by ourselves and by others. The Bible gives us words to ponder, and warns us repeatedly of the danger of images. We were created to grow in grace by means of the Word; and I'm asking if anything in that Word encourages us to resume abrogated ritual, even for instructional help in holy matters?


We should all be aware that, irrespective of the situation (formal public worship or informal private worship), still God may not be worshiped in any way forbidden in his Word. A person who rejects idols as incompatible with public worship, for example, is not free to post a (alleged) picture of Jesus in his prayer closet, "because it helps me focus religiously, and I'm not forcing someone else into a conscience-stricken situation."

If we read about the old Jewish Passover, we should be put in mind of the holy things that ritual represented. In this case the means God has instituted, specifically his Word and the connections the text makes to the full revelation of Jesus Christ, are being used for the purpose, and in the manner, which God intended.

I dare not say: that no educational, visual or hands-on representation of the Bible's own presentation is ever allowable. I think a blanket denunciation might be taking things a bit far. However, since I wouldn't advise anyone making such a presentation perform an actual blood-letting sacrifice, I think there are reasonable limits that should observed. In essence, I would advocate something much less "ambitious" than an attempted re-creation of a Passover.

The actual ceremonies described in the Bible, associated with the Passover, are actually quite minimalist. There's more ritual involved in the Passover than in a proper, modest Communion-meal; but also, much less is prescribed than would make much of a stage-play. And even sticking closely to the text, we can hardly expect to replicate the actual conduct of true participants "on the ground." So much of what we would be doing would be "supposed," and inevitably artificial.

And that last bit is what is most disadvantageous to us. We assume that what we see is the truth, when a great deal of it couldn't possibly be so. Furthermore, we are natural "ritualists," and tend toward elaboration, and the fashioning of new rituals, and ascription of new "spiritual" meanings. The latter problem is evident in the ritualized "seder," with its countless spiritualized traditions (not found in the text), that have been further re-interpreted by Christians.

An illustration may help here. A number of years ago I spent some time involved in events that were later rendered cinematically. I have promised myself never to watch the movie. Why? Because, if I were to do so, immediately I would begin to have difficulty distinguishing between my memory and Hollywood's "memory." This is because we instinctively merge new thoughts into the pool of our memories. So, it would be increasingly difficult to separate things I know I remember, from things planted in my head by the artificial recreation (and manipulation) of made-for-viewing reminisces.

Obviously, not every sort of memory or knowledge deserves that sort of "protection." Only what a person cares about. My personal-experience memory preservation is an individual choice. However, the protection of our mind as much as possible in religion is not simply an individual preference, but is itself a religious duty. I suggest that the risks are quite high for us to idealize our limited attempt at play-acting, deciding after the fact that "we really get it now!" when in reality, we may have filled our heads with a tremendous amount of new, false understanding.

I can see some possible advantage to ordinary folk benefiting from watching OT ritual-reenactment in strictly controlled theatre, although I think there are also serious drawbacks. In general, I think the idea of getting costumed up, and making-believe one is an ancient Israelite, brings our faith dangerously close to circus. Again, such players can easily walk away thinking they have attained "deep" new insight, when in fact they have been inoculated against further development of insight. Such is the nature of visual media, compared to "word" media.
 
Hey Everyone!

I would echo much of what pastor Buchanan has said. However, I have a unique perspective on this since I am about ready to write a paper on Hebrew ritual in its near eastern context.

I don't think there would be much of a problem if we could do the research to recreate what the passover meal looked like in the apostolic days. I don't think there is any question that an entire meal was served, but exactly what was involved has not been documented in detail to the best of my knowledge. The problem, of course, is also calling it a "Passover" meal, as it appears that this meal was performed much more often then simply once a year. Also, many of the modern Passover Seders [even the Messianic ones!] partake of later Rabbinic tradition as well as some Biblical tradition, and that throws a whole new light on the interpretive framework of the Passover meal itself.

However, my concern is much more for the heart of the ritual than for the ritual itself. We had a Hebrew grammarian named Anson Rainey come and give a lecture here at Trinity, and one of his lectures was on the order of sacrifice in Leviticus. His concern was for the heart issues that the sacrifices address. For example, the whole burnt offerings were meant to represent a person who was totally and completely dedicated to God. In fact, one can see this in the teachings of Jesus where he tells his followers to be reconciled with their brother before they offer the sacrifice.

It is the same thing with passover. The point of passover is not simply to remember the freedom from slavery in Egypt, although that is indeed present. The point is to remember our freedom from the slavery of sin as well. The problem that I have with a lot of these Passover presentations is that it does not address this issue of the heart. We should have a heart that remembers and gives thanks to God, not just for the salvation of our forefathers from Egypt, but for our own deliverance from sin and death which is given to us in the death of Jesus Christ. That is why leaving out the communion celebration is so disastrous.

During his lecture, Professor Rainey was asked about the people in Israel who want to rebuild the temple. His response was that he preferred that people recapture the heart of what the sacrifices meant, rather than re-instituting the sacrifices themselves. This is also why I am concerned about this video someone told me about:

[video=youtube;Q8_lisWqjpk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8_lisWqjpk&feature=player_embedded[/video]

During that whole program, the political importance of helping our political friend Israel was confused with the blessings that come from being the people of God. In fact, you have two professing Christians on this program with two Jews, all talking about some Biblical mandate to protect the political nation of Israel. That is *not* the point of "Israel" in the Hebrew Bible. The position as the apple of God's eye, and those whom God would protect to the end depended upon the state of their heart. The fact of the matter is, God destroyed Israel himself. Does that mean that his wrath was kindled against himself? No, obedience and a heart that loves God was always required in order for Israel to be God's people [Genesis 12:1-3, 17:1-2, Exodus 19:5-6, Deuteronomy 10:16, etc.]. In fact, God, at one point, told Israel, "You are not my people" [Hosea 1:9]. To simply talk of a geopolitical entity over in the middle east run by people who believe that Jesus the messiah was a false prophet fails to recognizes the connection between the people of God and the state of the heart. Worst of all, to do it with two Jews, and never call them to repentance so that they truly are the people of God was simply disastrous.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should not help our political friend Israel; however, that has nothing to do with the people of God as found in the Hebrew Bible. The people of God was a heart issue in the Hebrew Bible. The sacrifices and Passover were heart issues as found in the Hebrew Bible. To not realize that, and focus upon the actions of the ritual is to totally miss the point of the ritual itself.

God Bless,
Adam
 
OK, we will scrap the Seder study, keep the rack of lamb and carry on with the Veggie Tales Easter Egg hunt.
 
Adam
Also, many of the modern Passover Seders [even the Messianic ones!] partake of later Rabbinic tradition as well as some Biblical tradition, and that throws a whole new light on the interpretive framework of the Passover meal itself.

Did the Jews of the first century use crackers? Were crackers what the Lord meant by unleavened bread?

Adam
The problem that I have with a lot of these Passover presentations is that it does not address this issue of the heart. We should have a heart that remembers and gives thanks to God, not just for the salvation of our forefathers from Egypt, but for our own deliverance from sin and death which is given to us in the death of Jesus Christ.

Possibly a well-structured sermon or presentation would be more spiritually helpful to Christians than re-enacting a Passover itself(?)

Christians need to get the meat out of the meaning of these Jewish Feasts - what they meant for the Jews and they mean for us as mature Israel - otherwise we might be missing out on some important teaching - but we don't want to load ourselves with childhood ceremonies and obscure Christ with shadows.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should not help our political friend Israel; however, that has nothing to do with the people of God as found in the Hebrew Bible. The people of God was a heart issue in the Hebrew Bible.

Well this is the usual simplistic view of ethnic Israel that is associated with Dispensationalism.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should not help our political friend Israel; however, that has nothing to do with the people of God as found in the Hebrew Bible. The people of God was a heart issue in the Hebrew Bible. The sacrifices and Passover were heart issues as found in the Hebrew Bible. To not realize that, and focus upon the actions of the ritual is to totally miss the point of the ritual itself

Israel, as currently constituted, is a necessary ally, but not necessarily a friend.
This has nothing to do with prophetic Israel. It's a geopolitical reality.
 
This thread reminds me that I need to head down to the Jewish area of Dallas and pick up some 'Kosher for Passover' Coca-Cola.
 
Richard Tallach,

I am not sure what you mean about the crackers.

Other than being uncertain about what you mean there, I would agree with everything you said. I was thinking more along the lines of the celebration of the Lord's Supper. Communion was an entire meal in the apostolic era. What I was saying is that it seems to me that we need to understand the heart of Communion/Passover, rather than try to reconstruct the history of Communion exactly as it was done in the apostolic era. I would rather see people come to see the significance of, not just the freedom that God gave our ancestors in Egypt, but the freedom that Christ has given us in salvation which completes and fills the meaning of Communion. Too many people want to change the ritual of communion when it is not about the ritual; it is about the heart that the ritual indicates.

The reason I say this is because Passover and Communion are developed in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament in a way that is rich in meaning. I wrote my post out of concern for the reductionisms that I see in Christianity with regards to how we are to understand Hebrew and Christian ritual. There is a richness in meaning in them, and, rather than going back to the specific practices, it is more important that we have a heart that is indicated by what the text of scripture teaches. Yes, the best place for this to be done is from the pulpit.

God Bless,
Adam
 
This thread reminds me that I need to head down to the Jewish area of Dallas and pick up some 'Kosher for Passover' Coca-Cola.

Actually, it doesn't have to be "Coca-cola". Any "fruit of the cola nut" will suffice.
 
Actually, it doesn't have to be "Coca-cola". Any "fruit of the cola nut" will suffice.

I grew up in Atlanta. So real Coke with sugar is better than the case or two of Throwback Pepsi that I have in the garage.
 
Actually, it doesn't have to be "Coca-cola". Any "fruit of the cola nut" will suffice.

I grew up in Atlanta. So real Coke with sugar is better than the case or two of Throwback Pepsi that I have in the garage.

If you have a Costco membership, you can buy Real Coke with Sugar all year round. Imported from Mexico, land of the free (at least when it comes to sugar based beverages).
 
I am not sure what you mean about the crackers.

I just meant, Was unleavened bread originally matzo or is this just another example of another extreme Jewish ruling?

The reason I say this is because Passover and Communion are developed in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament in a way that is rich in meaning. I wrote my post out of concern for the reductionisms that I see in Christianity with regards to how we are to understand Hebrew and Christian ritual. There is a richness in meaning in them, and, rather than going back to the specific practices, it is more important that we have a heart that is indicated by what the text of scripture teaches. Yes, the best place for this to be done is from the pulpit.

Well the better we understand the Passover, the better we'll understand Christ's work and the Lord's Supper, and vice versa.

I agree with what your saying. I don't think a demonstration of the Passover is more helpful than a sermon or a sermon with handouts.
 
If you have a Costco membership, you can buy Real Coke with Sugar all year round. Imported from Mexico,

You can get that in the local Mexican supermarkets here. But it runs about the same as the bottles of Dublin Dr Pepper - about $1 for a single serve bottle. The Kosher for Passover Coke comes in 2 liter bottles priced the same as the diet and HFCS products.
 
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