Parachurch revisited

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Trueman makes this admission in his article (linked above), that the Reformers did things that looked para-church-y:

churchmen did things that went beyond church services and meetings directly connected with church governance. In Geneva, the Company of Pastors met for mutual encouragement and edification. In Zurich and then in England, the prophesyings were gatherings focused on helping ministers improve their preaching skills. But these were all churchly in that the men involved were also connected to the same ecclesiastical bodies and subject to the same accountability structures. They were not parachurch groups, standing apart from structures provided by established polity.

Trueman describes the parachurch-like activity done by the Reformers, but then says that these were not really parachurches, which of course, is technically true, but these outside-the-church activities of the Reformers are very similar to how many parachurch orgs run. There is not much functional difference.

His assertion is true of some parachurch orgs (like the Promisekeepers), that they are unconnected to local churches. But, I've already given the example of some parachurch orgs, where the leadership of the org is tied and connected to the oversight of local churches. These parachurch orgs mirror the practices of these Reformers mentioned above in the Trueman quote. I have already given the example of mission orgs being governed by a board of directors drawn from the churches sending them missionaries. This situation seems the same as that described by Trueman in Reformation times.

Trueman then says the same things I have been asserting here in this thread all along:

There are parachurch organisations which are truly para-church, in that they exist to serve, and be subservient to, actual churches, and which fulfill such a narrow function that they cannot be confused with churches. To this group belong institutions such as seminaries and Bible colleges. They have a specific educational remit and are not involved in regular preaching, sacramental duties and discipline with regard to a specific congregation. We might also include in this group those organisations which exist to promote a specific issue or narrowly defined set of issues. Thus, Christian publishers fall into this category. The Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood would be parachurch in this sense, as might also be groups such as the Proclamation Trust in the United Kingdom. Few, if any, question whether such groups can, in principle, do good for the church, though there might be some interesting differences of opinion on how exactly they are to be connected to the church. For example, should seminary Board and Faculty members be appointed by the church?

Does Trueman somehow disparage the Church or not respect the Church's role by being so soft on these parachurch orgs? No. He sounds like he is asserting the same position as I am...that all parachurch orgs are not created alike. Some serve the Church and are beneficial...and some are not.

Parachurch orgs must serve the church and be tied and connected closely to the church and not usurp churchly functions (just like Trueman says). When this happens, we can praise God for these groups without feeling as if we've compromised our ecclesiology somehow.

p.s. Trueman admits that the early church document, the Didache, hints at ecclesiastical independency.

So far as seminaries and Bible colleges I see no reason why they should not fall under proper church ecclesiology also.

What would proper church ecclesiolgy be? What would it look like?

What would proper ecclesiology be for seminaries serving several Presbyterian denominations?
What would proper ecclesiology be for independants like baptists who don't have a denominational framework to put a seminary under one "church" or one denomination? What if an association or fraternity or fellowship of churches got together to form a seminary?
 
If independency is assumed, however, there are no higher courts. Thus, the call for associations and parachurches.

Obviously this is a topic for another thread, but I think it should be noted that God has established the Presbyterian model of church government for many reasons, one of them being the many positives of higher courts.

Plenty of Presbyterian denominations have not stayed true to the faith and many presbyterian lands have not remained faithful to the gospel. And their errors have often happened from the "top-down." Such top-down defections cannot happen among independents.

For the record, Presbyterianism is absolutely not "top down" in it's government......"top down" would be Episcopalian or Roman, generally......
 
If independency is assumed, however, there are no higher courts. Thus, the call for associations and parachurches.

Obviously this is a topic for another thread, but I think it should be noted that God has established the Presbyterian model of church government for many reasons, one of them being the many positives of higher courts.

Plenty of Presbyterian denominations have not stayed true to the faith and many presbyterian lands have not remained faithful to the gospel. And their errors have often happened from the "top-down." Such top-down defections cannot happen among independents.

For the record, Presbyterianism is absolutely not "top down" in it's government......"top down" would be Episcopalian or Roman, generally......

They are not "as top down" as Episcopalians or Roman Catholics, but they still make decisions on a level higher than the local church.

Otherwise, you couldn't have headlines like below, the whole PCUSA voting to go apostate, "Presbyterian Church (USA) approves same-sex marriage amendment."

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/03/17/presbyterian-church-usa-approves-sex-marriage-amendment/

That is, indeed, entirely too top-down when compared with independent baptist polity, where all associations are voluntary and some synod far away cannot tell me that my church now must become pro-gay.
 
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If independency is assumed, however, there are no higher courts. Thus, the call for associations and parachurches.

Obviously this is a topic for another thread, but I think it should be noted that God has established the Presbyterian model of church government for many reasons, one of them being the many positives of higher courts.

Plenty of Presbyterian denominations have not stayed true to the faith and many presbyterian lands have not remained faithful to the gospel. And their errors have often happened from the "top-down." Such top-down defections cannot happen among independents.

For the record, Presbyterianism is absolutely not "top down" in it's government......"top down" would be Episcopalian or Roman, generally......

They are not "as top down" as Episcopalians or Roman Catholics, but they still make decisions on a level higher than the local church.

Otherwise, you couldn't have headlines like below, the whole PCUSA voting to go apostate, "Presbyterian Church (USA) approves same-sex marriage amendment."

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/03/17/presbyterian-church-usa-approves-sex-marriage-amendment/

That is, indeed, entirely too top-down when compared with independent baptist polity, where all associations are voluntary and some synod far away cannot tell me that my church now must be pro-gay.

Not true, Perg. The USA "church" acts more like the Episcopacy than anything and does not represent Presbyterian polity at all. Furthermore, in Presbyterianism, many decisions are made at the session level and never go to the Presbytery or G.A. level. Even when a matter goes above the session level, it is certainly not a bishop (or any single man) who rules, but the collective eldership (representing the congregations to the broader church) and ministers (representing the broader church to the congregations) who rule. "Top down" indicates heirarchy. We are not a heirarchal system. The confusion as I see it is in the misunderstanding between broader and higher. Broader is Presbyterian, higher is Hierarchal. The distinction is critical. When a matter goes to Presbytery or to the G.A., it has not gone "higher", but "broader".....
 
If independency is assumed, however, there are no higher courts. Thus, the call for associations and parachurches.

Obviously this is a topic for another thread, but I think it should be noted that God has established the Presbyterian model of church government for many reasons, one of them being the many positives of higher courts.

Plenty of Presbyterian denominations have not stayed true to the faith and many presbyterian lands have not remained faithful to the gospel. And their errors have often happened from the "top-down." Such top-down defections cannot happen among independents.

For the record, Presbyterianism is absolutely not "top down" in it's government......"top down" would be Episcopalian or Roman, generally......

They are not "as top down" as Episcopalians or Roman Catholics, but they still make decisions on a level higher than the local church.

Otherwise, you couldn't have headlines like below, the whole PCUSA voting to go apostate, "Presbyterian Church (USA) approves same-sex marriage amendment."

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/03/17/presbyterian-church-usa-approves-sex-marriage-amendment/

That is, indeed, entirely too top-down when compared with independent baptist polity, where all associations are voluntary and some synod far away cannot tell me that my church now must be pro-gay.

Not true, Perg. The USA "church" acts more like the Episcopacy than anything and does not represent Presbyterian polity at all. Furthermore, in Presbyterianism, many decisions are made at the session level and never go to the Presbytery or G.A. level. Even when a matter goes above the session level, it is certainly not a bishop (or any single man) who rules, but the collective eldership (representing the congregations to the broader church) and ministers (representing the broader church to the congregations) who rule. "Top down" indicates heirarchy. We are not a heirarchal system. The confusion as I see it is in the misunderstanding between broader and higher. Broader is Presbyterian, higher is Hierarchal. The distinction is critical. When a matter goes to Presbytery or to the G.A., it has not gone "higher", but "broader".....

So the Presbyterian Church USA is not Presbyterian?

Isn't it possible in the presbyterian system for the synod to vote in a binding way that a local church does not agree with? I have heard of some churches leaving their denominations when synod-wide votes have changed doctrines and then, once they left the denomination, the church building and property reverted to denominational control. Whether this is "higher" or "broader" it offends my independent senses. I see no ecclesiastical courts or structures above that of the local church in Scripture.
 
What would proper ecclesiology be for seminaries serving several Presbyterian denominations?

From the PRTS academic catalogue:
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary is governed by a Board of Trustees that includes three appointees from the Free Reformed Churches of North America (FRC), and seven members appointed by the Synod of the Heritage Reformed Churches (HRC). The daily administration conducted by the faculty and office staff is under the direction of the president, who is also a faculty member and is answerable to the Board of Trustees. The Board of Trustees is accountable to the denominational Synods (of both HRC and FRC). This ecclesiastical oversight is the biblical model of governance for the seminary in accordance with the Reformed Church Order.
 
From what I have read and heard, the USA is acting more Episcopalian than Presbyterian. Governing Episcopalian is not Presbyterian.

Many Presbyterian General Assemblies have ruled on the Federal Vision, for example. It is my understanding that those G.A.'s have essentially said the FV is out of bounds and ministers may not teach it. That is a very good thing! Because man is sinful, the possibility of governing bodies making wrong decisions is there ....in any governmental system. As for the property issues specifically, I'll leave that to the more knowledgeable Presbyterians here, but my understanding is that property is owned locally.

I came from independency...about 20 years worth, so I am not unaware of the various out-workings of governance within independency. Also, I have no intent of starting a battle with you or any of my independent brothers, for you are my brothers. Let me give two, very real scenarios:

1- A member in good standing feels they have been misunderstood and wrongly judged by the local church.
2- A minister is about to be run out on a rail.

In both circumstances, the individual could be wrong or they could be right. How can this matter be resolved, biblically? In indepedency, one has little or no recourse, no place of appeal and get to the bottom of an issue with people who are not as emotinally charged, whether the accused are wrong or right. Ultimately, one must stay or leave (and they may not have that option, either). How can this be biblical conflict resolution?

I understand (I really do!) that you do not "see" any authority above the local church.......there was a time when I did not either.....
 
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So far as seminaries and Bible colleges I see no reason why they should not fall under proper church ecclesiology also.
The establishment of Westminster Seminary in the throes of the modernism of the Presbyterian Church is a good example of why such things have historically arisen. RTS Jackson was founded in the South for the same reasons as the PCUS moved headlong into liberalism.

Even as some Churchmen were despising the very Confession that was the Constitution of their Churches they decried the conservatives in both instances of the impropiety of their actions from an ecclesiastical standpoint.
 
I see no ecclesiastical courts or structures above that of the local church in Scripture

None?? Surely someone has mentioned Acts 15. Paul himself was a higher authority of sorts than the local assemblies.

"The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture:"

THE BAPTIST CONFESSION 1689 was itself the work of a group larger than the local congregation.
It was: “Put forth by the Elders and Brethren of many Congregations of Christians”
 
From what I have read and heard, the USA is acting more Episcopalian than Presbyterian. Governing Episcopalian is not Presbyterian.

Many Presbyterian General Assemblies have ruled on the Federal Vision, for example. It is my understanding that those G.A.'s have essentially said the FV is out of bounds and ministers may not teach it. That is a very good thing! Because man is sinful, the possibility of governing bodies making wrong decisions is there ....in any governmental system. As for the property issues specifically, I'll leave that to the more knowledgeable Presbyterians here, but my understanding is that property is owned locally.

I came from independency...about 20 years worth, so I am not unaware of the various out-workings of governance within independency. Also, I have no intent of starting a battle with you or any of my independent brothers, for you are my brothers. Let me give two, very real scenarios:

1- A member in good standing feels they have been misunderstood and wrongly judged by the local church.
2- A minister is about to be run out on a rail.

In both circumstances, the individual could be wrong or they could be right. How can this matter be resolved, biblically? In indepedency, one has little or no recourse, no place of appeal and get to the bottom of an issue with people who are not as emotinally charged, whether the accused are wrong or right. Ultimately, one must stay or leave (and they may not have that option, either). How can this be biblical conflict resolution?

I understand (I really do!) that you do not "see" any authority above the local church.......there was a time when I did not either.....

Thanks for those thoughts.
 
I see no ecclesiastical courts or structures above that of the local church in Scripture

None?? Surely someone has mentioned Acts 15. Paul himself was a higher authority of sorts than the local assemblies.

"The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture:"

THE BAPTIST CONFESSION 1689 was itself the work of a group larger than the local congregation.
It was: “Put forth by the Elders and Brethren of many Congregations of Christians”

Yes, the 1689 signers believed in associations. Churches may cooperate. Plenty of better men than I have defended independency. That is not the main point of the OP, though the majority of evangelical missions operate under the independency mindset and voluntarily associate with other independent churches. I do believe independents are more tolerant towards parachurches.

Acts 15 wasn't the first general assembly of the presbyterian church. Berkhof states the following about Acts 15:

This ... did not constitute a proper example and pattern of a classis or synod in the modern sense of the word.
 
The establishment of Westminster Seminary in the throes of the modernism of the Presbyterian Church is a good example of why such things have historically arisen. RTS Jackson was founded in the South for the same reasons as the PCUS moved headlong into liberalism.

Even as some Churchmen were despising the very Confession that was the Constitution of their Churches they decried the conservatives in both instances of the impropiety of their actions from an ecclesiastical standpoint.

I am mildly familiar with the situation which why Westminster Seminary was founded and was the order of the founding before or after the founding of the OPC?
 
I know of one couple here in Australia who have left their local church to pursue full time Parachurch responsibilities. This also involves going to different churches on Sundays and during the week, and it keeps them quite busy. I suspect they are not the only ones in this organisation that do this.

In their defence, they are a very active Godly couple, almost like missionaries of their cause.
 
Westminster Seminary was founded in 1929 and the OPC was founded in 1936.

I see no reason other than pragmatism why WS could not have taken a course of submitting to the proper ecclesiology once the OPC started. Even though the previous institutional seminaries fell into modernism does not mean they would have taken the same course. Of course this is water under the bridge and I suppose Our Lord will guide His future pastors toward good reformed seminaries if WS falters. This I am confident of because He loves His sheep and Our Lord will always usually uses the best grass to feed them.

I wish to say have a blessed Lord's Day, especially to all our great elders on the PB and those who feed the sheep all over the world.
 
The establishment of Westminster Seminary in the throes of the modernism of the Presbyterian Church is a good example of why such things have historically arisen. RTS Jackson was founded in the South for the same reasons as the PCUS moved headlong into liberalism.

Even as some Churchmen were despising the very Confession that was the Constitution of their Churches they decried the conservatives in both instances of the impropiety of their actions from an ecclesiastical standpoint.

I am mildly familiar with the situation which why Westminster Seminary was founded and was the order of the founding before or after the founding of the OPC?

Prior to the OPC founding. There were Presbyterian men trying to go after Machen because of the founding of Westminster but, because many had supported Union, they knew they really couldn't press that. It was the founding of the Independent Mission Board where they finally tried and convicted him. Interestingly, I was just listening to Godfrey note that he had transferred his credentials to Philadelphia and the Clerk of that Presbytery had sent the credentials transfer but, because the other Presbytery never sent a receipt, they were able to try him at the other Presbytery. Since Philadelphia was a conservative Presbytery it is speculated that he would not have been convicted.
 
Does Trueman somehow disparage the Church or not respect the Church's role by being so soft on these parachurch orgs?

Yes. He is working on the assumption that certain bodies are already acceptable and therefore set a certain criteria for parachurch activity. Whereas, the fact is, these acceptable bodies could easily become as unacceptable as others while still displaying the same criteria. It is the fact that the body is essentially independent from the church while taking on ecclesiastical functions which makes it an inevitable risk to the church.

The question, Should faculty be appointed by the church, is basic to the issue; whereas Dr. Trueman treats it as a subsidiary question. The Westminster Confession boldly and plainly repudiates Erastianism in these terms -- "The Lord Jesus, as king and head of his Church, hath therein appointed a government in the hand of Church officers, distinct from the civil magistrate." If it does not belong to church government it belongs to another form of government over which He is not the mediatorial head. To allow an independent body to appoint functionaries to functions usually connected to ecclesiastical oversight is to allow a government to exercise a form of control within the church which is not under the headship of Christ. There is no way to bring it under the headship of Christ because Christ claims no mediatorial relation to a non-ecclesiastical body.
 
Westminster Seminary was founded in 1929 and the OPC was founded in 1936.

I see no reason other than pragmatism why WS could not have taken a course of submitting to the proper ecclesiology once the OPC started.

I do not think it was because of pragmatism, but a desired separation between both institutions. But such was not necessarily the case by some as indicated by the 11th General Assembly of the OPC (1944). Here is a document you may find interesting, especially pages 175-177.

http://opc.org/cfh/guardian/Volume_13/1944-06-10.pdf


The establishment of Westminster Seminary in the throes of the modernism of the Presbyterian Church is a good example of why such things have historically arisen. RTS Jackson was founded in the South for the same reasons as the PCUS moved headlong into liberalism.

Even as some Churchmen were despising the very Confession that was the Constitution of their Churches they decried the conservatives in both instances of the impropiety of their actions from an ecclesiastical standpoint.

I am mildly familiar with the situation which why Westminster Seminary was founded and was the order of the founding before or after the founding of the OPC?

Prior to the OPC founding. There were Presbyterian men trying to go after Machen because of the founding of Westminster but, because many had supported Union, they knew they really couldn't press that. It was the founding of the Independent Mission Board where they finally tried and convicted him.

There was concern by some of the mainline Presbyterians that the founding of the Independent Board for Presbyterian Foreign Missions (IBPFM) was a continuation of the founding of Westminster Seminary and in that spirit would lead to more division within the Presbyterian body and the founding of other independent Presbyterian agencies or organizations thereof.
 
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I do not think it was because of pragmatism, but a desired separation between both institutions. But such was not necessarily the case by some as indicated by the 11th General Assembly of the OPC (1944). Here is a document you may find interesting, especially pages 175-177.

http://opc.org/cfh/guardian/Volume_13/1944-06-10.pdf

This was indeed interesting, thank you. Are there any seminaries that are members of the NAPARC that have the proper ecclesiology so far as The Church (or at least having oversight) the training TE's?
 
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